Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You imagine correctly.
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Muslim man sentenced to death for blasphemy in Pakistan
- Thread starter danieldemol
- Start date
Cooky
Veteran Member
So you have no problem with theocracies, where blasphemy is punishable by death, as long as the numbers stay down. Got it.
I don't understand why God would be entitled to reverence and worship, or why withholding it would be unjust.
The 'virtue of religion'? You'll have to explain that further.
[/quote]
- It is against God, since blasphemy attacks the reverence due to God.
- Ultimately, the one harmed is the blasphemer himself. Mortal sin deprives us of sanctifying grace, without which we are ineligible for salvation.
- Under current circumstances I do not think the civil authority (in secular states) is in a position to punish blasphemy. At this point, the explicit re-recognition of God as lord over even secular states will not happen outside divine intervention.
- Retribution makes satisfaction for wrong done. It is the same principle by which Catholics commit to penance after absolution.
- My religion teaches that anyone who dies in mortal sin deserves eternity in Hell.[/quote]So irreverence or an impious word condemns one to Hell? This doesn't sound like a just or loving god. It sounds like a fearsome, cruel, vindictive god. How does one revere a cruel, threatening god? As for the satisfaction of retribution, that doesn't sound very Christian.
How do you determine this? Isn't there as much evidence for them as there is for the Christian god?
But how does one determine the truth? There is no more empirical evidence for the Christian God than there is for Quetzalcoatl. The correct choice is a roll of the dice, and if you choose the wrong god....
So you have no problem with theocracies, where blasphemy is punishable by death, as long as the numbers stay down. Got it.
No I say our problems at home are at least as bad as Pakistan's, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about Pakistan's, you might as well concentrate on your own problems than trying to run the world.
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
Now look who's talking. Critical examination is not denial, I, in this thread have addressed both the erroneous use of the term "Blasphemy" and asked repeatedly for some context to the OP's article, because I'm not much of a person for wanking off to clickbait.
Now the use of the word "Blasphemy" (which again is objectively a Catholic concept which requires an infallible institution like the Papacy to be a thing) is the equivalent to saying that birds and cows are the same because they have feet.
Countries like Pakistan, while they are Muslim majority and epistemological base their government around certain principles, does not make them an equivalent to the Papacy. They are just another country like the USA, who routinely makes it's own bad decisions. Capital punishment is still throughout the USA Capital punishment in the United States - Wikipedia
People such as yourself and other gawkers on this thread fail to address any of the complexities, both in relation to Islam itself (which is yet again not a monolith) and Pakistan's internal relationships, what such things mean and etc.
There is no equivalent to a Papacy in Islam, there is not even a Caliphate (the term "Islamic world" has ceased to have any actual meaning for over 80 years) and the only form of Islam that has similarity (Ismaili Shi'ism) is wholly democratic and secular.
This conflation of the word "Blasphemy" with any kind of government action in such countries (which again is fallacious and orientalist drivel which pays ignorance as a currency, in it's disregard for any Arabic terminology and meaning of such terminology, in contrast to the blakc Catholic-English term "Blasphemy"), with the fallacy towards misrepresenting there being unanimity of Islamic views, even the ignorance towards the views of the majority school of Fiqh in Pakistan itself, the list grows.
Plus even the strange way people refer to "Islam" as if it's a person
Look mate, you're better when arguing with Theists. Nonetheless, if anyone has read my posts they know I'm not a Sunni, so you'd think that Sunnis such as these Hahafi-majority Pakistani's would be the last that I would be in "denial" about.
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SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
We all know that we know nothing, that's why we actually need detail, not your clickbait circlejerk, as I've repeatedly said. As someone genuinely actually interested and not busting a nut from outrage, I want to actually know the fine details.
For the record too, nobody has payed any attention to the first two words in title of this article (and this thread), funny that
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It's very sad. I am glad I know and believe God will bring this man back to life to a better world someday. There are new heavens and a new earth where righteousness will be. (Revelation 21:1-5)
I disagree, international pressure works in saving people who otherwise would have been quietly executed.
I don't see why it matters that it was a Muslim being punished for a non-crime
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Now look who's talking. Critical examination is not denial, I, in this thread have addressed both the erroneous use of the term "Blasphemy" and asked repeatedly for some context to the OP's article, because I'm not much of a person for wanking off to clickbait.
Now the use of the word "Blasphemy" (which again is objectively a Catholic concept which requires an infallible institution like the Papacy to be a thing) is the equivalent to saying that birds and cows are the same because they have feet.
Countries like Pakistan, while they are Muslim majority and epistemological base their government around certain principles, does not make them an equivalent to the Papacy. They are just another country like the USA, who routinely makes it's own bad decisions. Capital punishment is still throughout the USA Capital punishment in the United States - Wikipedia
People such as yourself and other gawkers on this thread fail to address any of the complexities, both in relation to Islam itself (which is yet again not a monolith) and Pakistan's internal relationships, what such things mean and etc.
There is no equivalent to a Papacy in Islam, there is not even a Caliphate (the term "Islamic world" has ceased to have any actual meaning for over 80 years) and the only form of Islam that has similarity (Ismaili Shi'ism) is wholly democratic and secular.
This conflation of the word "Blasphemy" with any kind of government action in such countries (which again is fallacious and orientalist drivel which pays ignorance as a currency, in it's disregard for any Arabic terminology and meaning of such terminology, in contrast to the blakc Catholic-English term "Blasphemy"), with the fallacy towards misrepresenting there being unanimity of Islamic views, even the ignorance towards the views of the majority school of Fiqh in Pakistan itself, the list grows.
Plus even the strange way people refer to "Islam" as if it's a person
Look mate, you're better when arguing with Theists. Nonetheless, if anyone has read my posts they know I'm not a Sunni, so you'd think that Sunnis such as these Hahafi-majority Pakistani's would be the last that I would be in "denial" about.
Why are you talking about capital punishment in the US and catholic papacy?
The subject is Pakistan and religiously inspired death sentences.
Are you going to deny that in the islamist theocratic middle east, people in fact officially get death sentences for what are essentially religious crimes?
The issue here is much bigger then this single case in Pakistan, where there idd isn't very much information to go by.
This is how Google defines blasphemy;
blasphemy
/ˈblasfəmi/
noun
noun: blasphemy; plural noun: blasphemies
- the action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk.
"he was detained on charges of blasphemy"
As you can see it has no requirement to have a centralised institution to be a thing, it only requires the non-crime of blasphemy to occur, and a willing party to carry out execution for it whether that be a government, vigilante group or individual.
I'd like to suggest that in the absence of any evidence you are simply making up complexity that does not exist.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
Well, has various divisions in it, but the majority are indoctrinated from birth and often those who "revert" to Islam tend to have a very white washed view of Islam or were deceived into it. When you are manipulated into following a belief then it is understandable why you would follow it, no matter how bad it is.
Because God has all the perfections to an infinite degree. The universe in all its magnitude and splendor is but a dim reflection of the magnitude and splendor of God. Indeed, the magnitude and splendor of God does not end for God is infinite. Likewise for his love and goodness. To see God is to know complete happiness that will last forever.
Religion (virtue) - Wikipedia
The holiness of God is such that no being with the slightest stain of sin can be permitted in his presence. This is a mercy, because without sanctifying grace the presence of God is painful. You cannot spend your mortal life in darkness and expect to stand before the light without pain. Those who cling to their sins willingly flee to the darkness of Hell.
As for the need to make satisfaction for sin it is eminently Christian. You have to repair the damage you have caused. And sin always causes damage. God's forgiveness may be free but it is never cheap.
On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence. But it is scoffed at by those who will not see because they do not want to see. For me, the most compelling evidence that confirms the validity of Catholicism are the Eucharistic miracles. We have instances of consecrated hosts turning into human heart tissue before a congregation's very eyes. Verified by blind tests. Samples given to labs with no knowledge of the sample's origin. Our Lord was serious when he said that the Eucharist was his flesh and blood.
Miraculous heart tissue is as empirical as you can get.
True, in this life we will never have certainty. But the claim that Christianity is no more credible than the faith of a cult of human sacrifice is a claim I reject. And I do not deny the existence of the Mesoamerican "gods". I claim rather that the Mesoamericans were very mistaken concerning the true nature of the spirits they were dealing with.
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My personal opinion is that the muslim religion is a cancer for humanity, it does not help us move forward, instead, it return humanity to the stone age.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
I would agree and disagree with that. It all depends on what version of Islam a person practices. The Islamic world has made many, many contributions historically in the technological and medical fields. That Islamic Golden Age ended because of Mongol invasions and some muslim scholar made didn't like the "innovations". The problem these days is that the muslim world has become largely ignorant and uneducated.
Check out the below. If Islam is such a cancer that will definitely send us to the stone age, then that makes no sense considering that muslims endorsed humanities advancement.
Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia
The ignorance of many Islamic nations today seems to be the problem. They should be educated.
To me the muslim religion seems very man made, a product of the human mind, not divinely inspired, while studying the other religions, I get a different impression.
Every religion with its own good things but the muslim religion, in our day to day world is a cancer and those who adhere to it, in a way or another, return to some form of primitive human behavior and you can not oppose me here, you see it yourself every day, we all see it.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
To me all religions seem man made.
Dude, I live in Cape Town, South Africa, in a community which includes Christians, atheists, Hindu's and Muslims. The many, many muslims here are known for their charity and helpful nature. Thats become a stereotype even. They are far from primitive.
A muslim neighbour offered to fix my run down car at a cheaper price just because my father is a pensioner and he uses it often. He has been fixing it for the past couple of days. I dunno how a man with "primitive behaviour" can fix a car though. It is mind boggling. Hopefully he doesn't start breaking his hard work apart because he decided to beat it with a club he found lying around...
So, besides the intended sarcasm, I can EEEEAAASILY oppose you here. I LITERALLY interact with muslims everyday.
Are you sure that you are using critical thinking here by painting all muslims, and all communities of muslims, with the same brush? Because having black and white thinking is itself a very primitive form of behaviour.
To me all religions seem man made.
Dude, I live in Cape Town, South Africa, in a community which includes Christians, atheists, Hindu's and Muslims. The many, many muslims here are known for their charity and helpful nature. Thats become a stereotype even. They are far from primitive.
A muslim neighbour offered to fix my run down car at a cheaper price just because my father is a pensioner and he uses it often. He has been fixing it for the past couple of days. I dunno how a man with "primitive behaviour" can fix a car though. It is mind boggling. Hopefully he doesn't start breaking his hard work apart because he decided to beat it with a club he found lying around...
So, besides the intended sarcasm, I can EEEEAAASILY oppose you here. I LITERALLY interact with muslims everyday.
Are you sure that you are using critical thinking here by painting all muslims, and all communities of muslims, with the same brush? Because having black and white thinking is itself a very primitive form of behaviour.
Man made with glimses from the divine.
People are good, don't involve religion here, a good person is a good person with or without religion. I met many muslims, even worked with them side by side, I know they are good people but these are not the "muslims" of the muslim world, they are people like me and you that don't sentence a man to death just because that man said something about an imaginary god.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
OK. Then you should be specific. There are many people who claim to be muslim in the world. There are good people who are muslim and bad people who are muslim. There are atheist muslims in everything but claimed religion, those who are staunch fundamentalists and everything in between. It is similar to Christianity in that sense.
Also, what do you mean by "muslim world"? Do you mean muslim countries? I know that certain predominantly muslim countries in the Middle East and south continental Asia have problems, but the you have countries like Indonesia and Mali which are peaceful countries, with a 90% muslim population each and have no apostasy laws and Mali not having blasphemy laws.
Well, it's not really quite similar with christianity, there is a huge number of muslim fundamentalists... millions probably... Have you seen the tens of thousands of people protesting against Macron because that guy ( president of France ) defended the freedom of speach, to mock a religious figure it is in a way a form of disrespect but to take one man's life because it mocked your imaginary god, then that behavior is the behavior of a cave man that has not evolved to this day and age.
Please, even in Indonesia there is christian persecution, let's not forget 2018 when many died and many more were hurt. All muslim countries have one form or another of persecution against those that they dislike. I know about Saudi Arabia, a very muslim country, heard countless upon countless stories about workers being treated like slaves, not being payed and so on.
The muslim world is the world of the fundamentalists and they are everywhere.