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Just Because There is a God...

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Well, to me it is a grey area. I am not sure if there are psychological needs in regards to religion, but I know this: That you have no such needs, only means that you have no such need, unless you can back it up with some soft science.

Well, I entertain myself constantly with theology. There was a time I was convince to believe in it. My subconscious mind coerced me into it. I suspect I might even be able to coerce my subconscious mind to re-coerce it's/my conscious awareness. A circular hell of my own creation.

It's been validated, except for the second part. That still unproven.

What science would need to validate is that it is anything else.

The question would be, can humanity create fictional gods? Do you need science to answer that?

The next question, does a non-fictional God exist? Without being able to answer that question, how can theology be anything other than entertainment?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I didnt say "all religions" so that's a straw man argument.

It's a disclaimer to anyone else who happens to read the post.

I said "claiming God is a religious claim by itself".
So hope you understand.

Wasn't disagreeing, just pointing out in general the dishonesty of the argument being made by the believers of those specific religions.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
What I see is that even with a premise of the former, God, there is no need for the later, theology.

One is free to pursue or create whatever theology they wish but it is a matter of personal choice, not need. Theology is for personal entertainment.

I'm afraid I find this rather confusing.

Theism without theology is like cooking without ingredients. It... really doesn't work that way. Sure, a cook can use many different sorts of ingredients to make food - and two chefs might not use any of the same ingredients - but they have to use ingredients. Theism and theology have much the same relationship. Theism in itself means nothing without the ingredients of theology to give it context and make it work to actually do something.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Whatever the "truth" is, it is not going to be decided with a popularity contest.
That's right...

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, voxpopuli,[2] and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), fickle crowd syndrome, and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea. Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

The Narrow Way

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But how can we convince all those ancient religious believers that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the newest and most appropriate (for our time) religion?
We should not be trying to convince them of that, because the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not even exist. ;)
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
We should not be trying to convince them of that, because the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not even exist. ;)
How do you know? You said that god sends the right message to the people at every age. What makes you think that pastafarianism isn't the right message for this age?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
That's right...

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, voxpopuli,[2] and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), fickle crowd syndrome, and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea. Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

The Narrow Way

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Unfortunately many people believe themselves to be among the few.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
I do not consider that logical because there is no reason why the different religions would agree. I mean there would be no reason for God to reveal different religions at different times if they were all going to be the same.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

How amusing.

You start off with:

"I do not consider that logical"

Then go into an illogical claim that ALL religions are from "god".

Which is over the top illogical for this "god" to tell men to write books, that turn into religions, that have from one to many "gods", have all kinds of different requirements, have all kinds of crazy explanations on how the world operates, and have all kinds of "afterlife" scenarios, making some or ALL of them LIES.

So actually yes, it would be w-a-y more logical if this "god" would just flat out explain everything in ONE truthful book/religion and leave it at that.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
I was just thinking, those folks who strongly insist on the need for there to be a God who created the universe,

Let's say such a God does exist,

Just because God created the universe,
It does not follow that man has any connection to this God.
It does not follow that this God has any concern for the welfare of man.
It does not follow that man has a soul, a spirit or there is any possibility of life/existence after the death of the brain.

Assuming God created the universe, this provides no support for any religious belief.

I have another question:

Let's say God does exist,

So then WHY are atheists so afraid of him?
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
No, that is not what I believe. I believe that God reveals what humans need in every age. The spiritual teachings are essentially the same in every religion, but the social teachings and laws and the message differ according to the needs of the times.

What causes the drama and religious wars are religious people who cling to their different religions and believe that only their religion is true, that it is the best and last religion God will ever reveal.

So it is humans who cause all the problems, not God.

What would be rational would be to realize that all the religions are from the same God and each religion was the truth from God suited to the times in which it was revealed. It would be best if all religions united under one banner, but in lieu of that if they understood what I just said and accepted each other's religions they could learn to live together in harmony and unity.

You keep claiming all these "spiritual teachings", but you have never presented any no matter how many times I've asked for them. Mostly going into all kinds of avoidance tactics, even making personal attacks to AVOID presenting any.

And if you knew anything about even some of the religions, you would know that there is no way that ALL the religions would "live together in harmony and unity".

Why the Christian "god" even tells his followers this:

Exodus 22:20
"Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known,
7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other),
8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them.
9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people.
10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Deuteronomy 13:12-16

12If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

Deuteronomy 17:2-5

2"(A)If there is found in your midst, in any of your towns, which the LORD your God is giving you, a man or a woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, by transgressing His covenant,

3and has gone and (B)served other gods and worshiped them, (C)or the sun or the moon or any of the heavenly host, (D)which I have not commanded,

4and if it is told you and you have heard of it, then you shall inquire thoroughly. Behold, if it is true and the thing certain that this detestable thing has been done in Israel,

5then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is, the man or the woman, and (E)you shall stone them to death.

Deuteronomy 17:12-13
12 The person who acts arrogantly, refusing to listen either to the priest who stands there serving the LORD your God or to the judge, must die. You must purge the evil from Israel. 13 Then all the people will hear [about it], be afraid, and no longer behave arrogantly.

Deuteronomy 18:20-22
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How do you know? You said that god sends the right message to the people at every age. What makes you think that pastafarianism isn't the right message for this age?
Because I have the message I believe is right for this age.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
How amusing.

You start off with:

"I do not consider that logical"

Then go into an illogical claim that ALL religions are from "god".

Which is over the top illogical for this "god" to tell men to write books, that turn into religions, that have from one to many "gods", have all kinds of different requirements, have all kinds of crazy explanations on how the world operates, and have all kinds of "afterlife" scenarios, making some or ALL of them LIES.

So actually yes, it would be w-a-y more logical if this "god" would just flat out explain everything in ONE truthful book/religion and leave it at that.
Well, there is a logic to not revealing everything at once. That's how you teach, you start with the basics and build on them to get to more complex stuff.
But when you do that, you never tell your students that they know everything at any point. In fact, you tell them when the next lesson is.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Because I have the message I believe is right for this age.
The question was how do you know. What is the epistemology of deciding which religion is the right one? What are the criteria for deciding when an era has ended? Is there a best-before date in your holy book? Or does it claim, like all the others, to be the last message (which causes the problem of conservatism)?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I have another question:

Let's say God does exist,

So then WHY are atheists so afraid of him?
giphy.gif
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
everytime i read the bible he is communicating with me. His written word, which is available to all, is his way of communicating with us.

So God communicates to you through other men and what they wrote.

You are free to believe that. Just as others are free to believe that God communicates to them through the Bagavad Gita or the Urantia Book.

Maybe God does but why pick any one over the other.
 
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