Why should God make world free from all sufferings ?

blü 2 · Oct 22, 2020

Ancient Soul said:
But the main problem in your opinion is that you claim to know God's "intentions", and hold YOUR opinion of his "intentions" against him.

I've never once claimed to know God's intentions. Asked to guess, perhaps it was to take Evolution for a test drive.

What I have done instead is point out the inevitable consequence of omnipotence ─ if you're omnipotent, then as I said, ALL the bucks stop with YOU. No one else can be responsible for anything, because nothing can happen unless the omnipotent being wants it to happen.

And of course if you're also omniscient then you already knew, down to the tiniest detail, everything that would ever happen in the universe you were about to create, so implicit in the universe is God's wish that everything that happens happens only and exactly as [he] intended.

And of course if God is perfect then God only has to do it once ─ there'll never be the slightest need for [him] to revisit what [he] perfectly decided 13 or more bn years back when [he] made the universe. [He] was at that moment of creation functus officio forever.

Ancient Soul said:
And your "science" part has nothing to do with anything in this topic.

This isn't science as such, but simply common sense.

And as I also said previously, these consequence only follow if God is omnipotent / omnipotent / perfect. If [he] ain't, then the argument no longer applies.

syo · Oct 22, 2020

chinu said:
It’s already two in one.

YES!

Ancient Soul · Oct 22, 2020

Ancient Soul said:
But the main problem in your opinion is that you claim to know God's "intentions", and hold YOUR opinion of his "intentions" against him.

And your "science" part has nothing to do with anything in this topic.

blü 2 said:
I've never once claimed to know God's intentions. Asked to guess, perhaps it was to take Evolution for a test drive.

What I have done instead is point out the inevitable consequence of omnipotence ─ if you're omnipotent, then as I said, ALL the bucks stop with YOU. No one else can be responsible for anything, because nothing can happen unless the omnipotent being wants it to happen.

And of course if you're also omniscient then you already knew, down to the tiniest detail, everything that would ever happen in the universe you were about to create, so implicit in the universe is God's wish that everything that happens happens only and exactly as [he] intended.

And of course if God is perfect then God only has to do it once ─ there'll never be the slightest need for [him] to revisit what [he] perfectly decided 13 or more bn years back when [he] made the universe. [He] was at that moment of creation functus officio forever.
This isn't science as such, but simply common sense.

And as I also said previously, these consequence only follow if God is omnipotent / omnipotent / perfect. If [he] ain't, then the argument no longer applies.

I don't see this going anywhere.

You deny claiming to know God's intentions, yet keep on repeating that you do.

Like this:

"And of course if you're also omniscient then you already knew, down to the tiniest detail, everything that would ever happen in the universe you were about to create, so implicit in the universe is God's wish that everything that happens happens only and exactly as [he] INTENDED."

Besides that, all you've done is rehash the same old argument over and over and don't even address anything I stated.

Trailblazer · Oct 22, 2020

Nimos said:
Careful not to get it backwards, we have to follow the "rules" of this setup.

So when I say "Because you are NOT able to protect the lamp from the wind", it is not because of a lack in free will or anything. But rather because it IS the fate of the lamp to be blown out and God told you that.

You might very well have tried to protect the lamp as good as you could, but for some reason, it just didn't work, so it ended up being blown out. That is the case, if the fate of the lamp is as God told you, to be blown out by the wind.

If it weren't then God would know it, and therefore not tell you that it was the fate of the lamp. Does that make sense?

The fate of the lamp can't be, to be blown out by the wind and to not be, at the same time, because God knows which one of these are the correct fate.

No, the fate of the lamp can't be to be blown out by the wind and not to be blown out, because the lamp can only have one fate. God knows which one of these is the ultimate fate of the lamp but God does not CAUSE the fate of the lamp by His Knowing its fate.

Who determined the fate of the lamp? The lamp did not get blown out by the wind because you protected it from the wind. Thus you made a free will decision to protect the lamp from the wind in order to prevent the lamp from blowing out. God KNEW what you would do, but God did not DO anything at all. Thus God did not determine the fate of the lamp, you did.

Nimos said:
Imagine we have Time and we assign a number to it, so the time with the lowest number happens before one with a higher number. Don't confuse it with God being timeless or anything like that, just look at it as the time of which events take place, so read it from top to bottom.

(So we have a strong wind blowing and the weather is very bad.)
Time 1 - You ask God what the fate of the lamp is?
What will God answer you at this point in time?

Time 5 - You decide to build a protective shell around the lamp against the wind. And then you ask God again, what is the fate of the lamp?
At this point in time will God answer that fate of the lamp is the same as he answered in Time 1 or not?

God would give you the SAME answer at Time 1 and Time 5, because God knew at Time 1 that you would build the protective shell at Time 5, so God knew that the fate of the lamp was not to be blown out by the wind.

If not, did God know the fate of the lamp in Time 1 or not, and if he did, why did the fate change? [/quote]

God knew the fate of the lamp at Time 1 and at Time 5, and God knew that you would determine the fate of the lamp by building the protective shell at Time 5.

The fate of the lamp did not change; the fate of the lamp was always not to be blown out by the wind, but you determined the fate of the lamp by making a free will decision to build the protective shell.

The lamp could have been blown out because the wind was blowing, but that was never the fate of the lamp. IF that had been the fate of the lamp the lamp would have blown out.

Nimos said:
If God answered the same fate in Time 1 as in Time 5, did you then change the fate of the lamp or was it exactly as it was always the way it was supposed to be like?

God answered the same fate at Time 1 as at Time 5 because the fate of the lamp was always the same; it never changed, as I explained above.

Nimos said:
And therefore you didn't make any free will choice to protect the lamp, because that was already decided in Time 1, before you even decided to protect it in Time 5?

The fate of the lamp was already known by God at Time 1, but it was not decided/determined until Time 5, when you built the protective shell.

God did not decide/determine the fate of the lamp just because God KNEW the fate of the lamp. That is what you still do not understand. The fate of the lamp was determined by the protective shell you built around the lamp to protect the lamp from the wind.

Nimos said:
No, then it simply weren't the fate of the lamp to begin with and never was. If what you or Abdu'l Baha are saying is true, then you are taking the mick out of God as being all knowing. Because it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to know the fate of anything, if you can change it at will.

That’s right. It was never the fate of the lamp to be blown out by the wind. If that had been the fate of the lamp, it would have been blown out.

The fate of the lamp was determined by the protective shell you built. God KNEW you would build the shell because God knows everything that will happen, as if it has already happened.

Nimos said:
Look at the example above with the time. There is no way, God can give you the correct answer in Time 1, if you can change it, in Time 2-5. Which means that clearly God would give you the wrong answer in Time 1 and therefore he is not all knowing.

As I said above, God would give you the SAME answer at Time 1 and Time 5, because the lamp only had one fate and the fate of the lamp was always the same. God knew what that fate was at Time 1 and at Time 5 because God is All-Knowing.

Nimos said:
But if you don't know. Then why did you answer this to the question just above?

"Yes I did prevent that fate by changing my mind at the last minute."

Then clearly the answer should be, "I don't know if I change fate."

What I meant was that I did not know at the time that I prevented the impending fate of slipping and falling and breaking my leg by putting down the trash and asking my husband to do the trash instead. However, I did prevent what could have been my fate by changing my mind at the last minute.

Nimos said:
The point is, that fate is what fate is. and there is only ONE fate!!

If you have a wine glass, which at some point will break either by someone dropping it on the floor or because someone accidentally hit it with the wine bottle.

Then the fate of the wine glass will either be, that "it is dropped" or that it is "hit by a wine bottle". It can't be both. Doesn't matter if its irrevocable or impending. You and me doesn't know which of these fate will be the correct one, but God does. And therefore it doesn't matter whether its irrevocable or impending, because the wine glass still only have ONE final fate.

It is true that there can be only one fate, but then we have to ask what determined that fate. As I said before, God knows what the ONE final fate will be, but out fate can change according to what we choose to do. So if I decide to do something different (like letting my husband take the trash out) that could alter my fate.

Nimos said:
Yes so what difference, would it make to God if a fate is irrevocable or impending? If you ask him the fate of something, why should it matter in his eyes, what is the difference?

In does not matter to God but it matters to us because we can alter an impending fate, but NOT an irrevocable fate.

Nimos said:
But then clearly you must agree, that talking about impending and irrevocable fates are pointless. Because if God knew that you would change your mind and thereby your fate, then the impending fate weren't really impending was it?

Yes, an impending fate was impending until I changed my mind and did something different. After that it became my fate.

Nimos said:
it was irrevocable, because you didn't change anything compared to what God already knew you would do?

It was never irrevocable because a fate cannot be BOTH impending and irrevocable since those are contradictory. An impending fate can be altered by free will choices and actions but an irrevocable fate can never be altered, as it is something that was predestined to happen no matter what you do. So for example, of it was predestined that you will die of a heart attack on a certain day nothing you might do to try to prevent that would prevent it.

It is important to note that there is no way we can know what our fate will be, and there is no way we can know if it is an impending fate or an irrevocable fate; only God knows which one it is and what the ultimate outcome will be. All we can do is make the best decisions possible and hope for the best; so with my cat all I could do was to take him to the vet as soon as possible because I knew that decision could determine the fate of the cat. The cat might have still had the same outcome if I had waited several days to take him to the vet, but I did not want to take that chance. We all make these kinds of decisions every day and determine what our fate will be. Sometimes it is nothing that important but sometimes it is very important.

Nimos · Oct 22, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Who determined the fate of the lamp? The lamp did not get blown out by the wind because you protected it from the wind.

Do you agree that at any point in the lamps lifetime, we could potentially ask God about the fate of the lamp?

So we could ask him years before we even put the lamp to use what the fate of it would be or we could ask him 5 minutes before the fate would come true. The reason for this is because the fate of the lamp doesn't change.

Imagine we just created the lamp, at that point the fate of lamp is sealed... either it gets blown out by the wind at some point or it runs out of oil.

Trailblazer said:
The fate of the lamp did not change; the fate of the lamp was always not to be blown out by the wind, but you determined the fate of the lamp by making a free will decision to build the protective shell.

Exactly, then it can't have been a free will decision. Because if it were, you could have changed your mind and therefore have changed the fate of it. Therefore you could not have acted differently.

Trailblazer said:
The fate of the lamp was already known by God at Time 1, but it was not decided/determined until Time 5, when you built the protective shell.

It is automatically part of the setup, because otherwise God could not have known the fate at time 1. It's simply not possible. If fate is not decided, then it is not the fate of anything!!! but something else is

Trailblazer said:
What I meant was that I did not know at the time that I prevented the impending fate of slipping and falling and breaking my leg by putting down the trash and asking my husband to do the trash instead. However, I did prevent what could have been my fate by changing my mind at the last minute.

That is my point, it was never your fate... because it didn't happen!!! Therefore your fate was to NOT break your leg, because that is what happened. Therefore you have no way of knowing it afterwards, believing you prevented anything is simply superstition.

Trailblazer said:
It is true that there can be only one fate, but then we have to ask what determined that fate. As I said before, God knows what the ONE final fate will be, but out fate can change according to what we choose to do. So if I decide to do something different (like letting my husband take the trash out) that could alter my fate.

Im not saying that I know what decides our fate. But the fact is that if someone knows it, then something does decide it.

That is why I asked you to give an example of it under the following conditions:
1. I know all.
2. I can't be wrong.
The reason you can't do this, is because it is impossible.
If I know the fate of everything and I can't be wrong, clearly nothing can surprise me and whatever you do, is already known to me long before you even know or do it.
That doesn't mean that I decided it, simply that it is the fate of it, because of the conditions that we have to follow. "I know all" and "I can't be wrong" therefore fate must already be decided.

Trailblazer said:
In does not matter to God but it matters to us because we can alter an impending fate, but NOT an irrevocable fate.

Fate has no meaning to us, because we only ever experience the final outcome. We personally can't tell the difference between them.

God doesn't care about the difference, because there is no difference.

Trailblazer said:
Yes, an impending fate was impending until I changed my mind and did something different. After that it became my fate.

How do you know that it weren't already your fate, give me one good argument for that?

Trailblazer said:
So for example, of it was predestined that you will die of a heart attack on a certain day nothing you might do to try to prevent that would prevent it.

There is no difference.

Look I might believe that when I wake up tomorrow, that if I count to 5 before getting up, that I might have changed my fate to the better. I have no clue, if that is the case or not. I might in fact make it worse, again I have no clue. The only thing, I can know for certain is that I don't know. It is simply superstition.

Trailblazer said:
It is important to note that there is no way we can know what our fate will be, and there is no way we can know if it is an impending fate or an irrevocable fate;

Then please stop saying stuff like this, it is very contradictory.
Yes, an impending fate was impending until I changed my mind and did something different. After that it became my fate.

Seriously, Trailblazer you can't change your mind or argumentation from sentence to sentence. It is very confusing. I really don't think im being unfair here, there need to be some consistency.

chinu · Oct 22, 2020

syo said:
YES!

like.. fish in sea, sea in fish.

Yes ?

SeekerOnThePath · Oct 22, 2020

chinu said:
NO. why should this be ?
What makes you think -- world free from suffering would also be a world absent of pleasure ?

Because they are both related emotional sensations brought upon by stimulation (whether physical, auditory, aural or emotional/social).

The ability to experience one of them defacto means the ability to experience the other.

chinu · Oct 22, 2020

SeekerOnThePath said:
Because they are both related emotional sensations brought upon by stimulation (whether physical, auditory, aural or emotional/social).

The ability to experience one of them defacto means the ability to experience the other.

This is the case happiness vs sorrow. But, am talking about joy vs sorrow.

Happiness -- exist for some time.
Joy -- is for endless period -- for eternity.

blü 2 · Oct 22, 2020

Ancient Soul said:
You deny claiming to know God's intentions, yet keep on repeating that you do.
Like this:
"And of course if you're also omniscient then you already knew, down to the tiniest detail, everything that would ever happen in the universe you were about to create, so implicit in the universe is God's wish that everything that happens happens only and exactly as [he] INTENDED."

You and I only know WHAT God intended after the event. That's the sense in which I don't know what God intends. You and I know after the event that God INTENDED it because that's the ONLY WAY it could have happened.

(Unless God is NOT omnipotent / omniscient / perfect, of course.)

Ancient Soul said:
Besides that, all you've done is rehash the same old argument over and over and don't even address anything I stated.

Then I'd be obliged if you'd restate your argument and I'll address it.

Muffled · Oct 23, 2020

chinu said:
Suppose, God claims the following:

I have already created a world where NO sufferings (any kind) exists at all.

I myself live in that world.

Further, also claims that anyone is more than welcome to reside in this world, but, for that you have to leave all your ego, belongings, and even your physical body behind in the world where you currently live.

If you are interested, inform God.

If NOT, then don't ever expect that God will make your world free from all sufferings because there's NO reason for God to create second similar world.

Why should God create second similar world ?

Kindly note: please do refrain from posting in this thread if you don't like to suppose.

I do not need to suppose. God has not created such a world. What He has don is reserve an empty space within His creation for this purpose.

I believe a created world ha its own merits even though it can't be completely devoid of suffering. The idea of a world with death or evil is one that I look forward to. I can eat my big MAC in peace knowing some insane gunman isn't going to shoot me.

Muffled · Oct 23, 2020

Nimos said:
Why would God create another world at all?

He already know which people he want to have living in his world and doesn't give a rats *** about the rest. And if he is omniscient then he already know who of us will go there, so he might as well skip our world and just allow those that made it into his straight away.

I believe there might be some sense to that. Surely God could preserve a world for those who want it that way and leave earth to the miscreants who rebel against God. My guess is that he loves those who have chosen evil enough to keep those who are obedient around to show the evil ones a better way.

Muffled · Oct 23, 2020

chinu said:
What if, God created on demand of people ?

What if God created all that on demand. Like.. people enjoy playing video games.

I believe Heaven is like that only without the evil option.

Nimos · Oct 23, 2020

Muffled said:
I believe there might be some sense to that. Surely God could preserve a world for those who want it that way and leave earth to the miscreants who rebel against God. My guess is that he loves those who have chosen evil enough to keep those who are obedient around to show the evil ones a better way.

Why would God need these to show the others a better way? As an all knowing God shouldn't he already know whether or not that would work or not?

So what is the point of threatening people with hell and punishment?

chinu · Oct 23, 2020

Muffled said:
I believe Heaven is like that only without the evil option.

You’re just talking video game too seriously

Bree · Oct 23, 2020

chinu said:
Suppose, God claims the following:

I have already created a world where NO sufferings (any kind) exists at all.

I myself live in that world.

Further, also claims that anyone is more than welcome to reside in this world, but, for that you have to leave all your ego, belongings, and even your physical body behind in the world where you currently live.

If you are interested, inform God.

If NOT, then don't ever expect that God will make your world free from all sufferings because there's NO reason for God to create second similar world.

Why should God create second similar world ?

Kindly note: please do refrain from posting in this thread if you don't like to suppose.

God has already done a similar thing in the past. He cleansed the earth back in the days of Noah by bringing a flood that destroyed all the wicked who refused to abide by rule of law.

The result afterward was an earth free from suffering and strife....and this is what he promises to do again on a permanent basis in the very near future. We can trust that it will happen because he's done it before. And his word is as sure as the rising of the sun.

Bree · Oct 23, 2020

Nimos said:
Why would God need these to show the others a better way? As an all knowing God shouldn't he already know whether or not that would work or not?

So what is the point of threatening people with hell and punishment?

He wont tolerate violence and misdeed for all eternity. The bible says 'and just a little while longer and the wicked will be no more'

Psalm 37:9-11
For evil men will be done away with,+
But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth.+
ו [Waw]
10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more;+
You will look at where they were,
And they will not be there.+
11 But the meek will possess the earth,+
And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace

He has done it in the past and he will do it again on a permanent basis. The opportunity for mankind is to seek Jehovah, seek peace and be saved into a new world of righteousness governed by God himself. Right now we govern ourselves and we have the 'help' of Satan who makes life miserable by causing havoc and suffering. But God will fix this by removing all who choose to do wrong and harm others. Peace is just around the corner.

chinu · Oct 24, 2020

Bree said:
God has already done a similar thing in the past. He cleansed the earth back in the days of Noah by bringing a flood that destroyed all the wicked who refused to abide by rule of law.

The result afterward was an earth free from suffering and strife....and this is what he promises to do again on a permanent basis in the very near future. We can trust that it will happen because he's done it before. And his word is as sure as the rising of the sun.

Permanent basis ?
What makes you sure he will NOW do this on permanent basis ?

Trailblazer · Oct 24, 2020

Nimos said:
Do you agree that at any point in the lamps lifetime, we could potentially ask God about the fate of the lamp?

So we could ask him years before we even put the lamp to use what the fate of it would be or we could ask him 5 minutes before the fate would come true. The reason for this is because the fate of the lamp doesn't change.

Imagine we just created the lamp, at that point the fate of lamp is sealed... either it gets blown out by the wind at some point or it runs out of oil.

I agree, because whatever is going to happen to the lamp is going to happen to the lamp and that is the fate of the lamp. God knows what that fate will of the lamp will be all throughout the lifetime of the lamp because God is All-Knowing.

Nimos said:
Exactly, then it can't have been a free will decision. Because if it were, you could have changed your mind and therefore have changed the fate of it. Therefore you could not have acted differently.

You made a free will decision to protect the lamp by building the protective shell around the lamp. Your free will decision determined the fate of the lamp.

You had to act in accordance with what God knew the fate of the lamp would be because God knew what the fate of the lamp would be.

Nimos said:
It is automatically part of the setup, because otherwise God could not have known the fate at time 1. It's simply not possible. If fate is not decided, then it is not the fate of anything!!! but something else is.

The fate was not determined till you built the protective shell. God ALWAYS knew you would build the protective shell.

Nimos said:
That is my point, it was never your fate... because it didn't happen!!! Therefore your fate was to NOT break your leg, because that is what happened. Therefore you have no way of knowing it afterwards, believing you prevented anything is simply superstition.

I agree.

Nimos said:
Im not saying that I know what decides our fate. But the fact is that if someone knows it, then something does decide it.

Only God knows it but God does not decide it because God does not control our actions that lead to our fate. Had I taken the trash can and slipped and fell then I would have determined my fate which would have been to break my leg. That did not happen only because I decided to let my husband take the trash can, so a decision I made determined my fate.

Nimos said:
That is why I asked you to give an example of it under the following conditions:
1. I know all.
2. I can't be wrong.
The reason you can't do this, is because it is impossible.
If I know the fate of everything and I can't be wrong, clearly nothing can surprise me and whatever you do, is already known to me long before you even know or do it.
That doesn't mean that I decided it, simply that it is the fate of it, because of the conditions that we have to follow. "I know all" and "I can't be wrong" therefore fate must already be decided.

No, just because God knows everything and can’t be wrong, that does not mean the fate is already decided. The fate is already KNOWN by God because God knows everything but the fate is not DECIDED until we make a decision and act on it. Before that it is just an impending fate, something that could happen, like I could slip and fall.

Nimos said:
Fate has no meaning to us, because we only ever experience the final outcome. We personally can't tell the difference between them.

That is true; we can never know the difference, whether it was impending or irrevocable. We can only know the final outcome..

Nimos said:
God doesn't care about the difference, because there is no difference.

According to Baha’u’llah, there are things that are going to happen and we cannot prevent them from happening because they are ordained by God; that is an irrevocable fate. No free will decision to act differently would change that fate. Then there are other things that can be changed by our actions, so you changed the fate of the lamp which would have been to blow out by building the protective shell.

Nimos said:
How do you know that it weren't already your fate, give me one good argument for that?

Impending fate: I will slip and fall if I take the trash can.

I change my mind and give my husband the trash can.

Fate: I do not slip and fall.

I cannot know that it was not already my fate to not slip and fall, because I cannot know that I would have slipped and fell if I had taken the trash can.

If giving my husband the trash can prevented me from slipping and falling it did, but only God knows if it did, because God is All-Knowing.

Nimos said:
Then please stop saying stuff like this, it is very contradictory.
Yes, an impending fate was impending until I changed my mind and did something different. After that it became my fate.

Seriously, Trailblazer you can't change your mind or argumentation from sentence to sentence. It is very confusing. I really don't think im being unfair here, there need to be some consistency.

An impending fate is simply a fate that would have been our fate if we had chosen to do something different or if something outside my control had happened differently.

Have you ever heard of people missing a plane and thus not being in a plane crash? Say I had a plane to catch but I got caught in traffic so I was late to the airport and so I missed my plane. Then the plane crashed but because I never got on that plane I did not die. I would have died (impending fate) had I got on that plane because everyone in the plane died, but it was not my fate to get on that plane, so my fate was not to die. It was not that I deliberately prevented it, because I did not know that the plane was going to crash. The point is that many things happen in our lives that determine our fate and we cannot always know why they happen.

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Sometimes they are free will choices (take cat to vet saves cat’s life) and sometimes they are just happenstance and outside our control (got stuck in traffic so did not catch the plane so did not die in plane crash). There are a lot of things that could have happened but didn’t and these were an impending fate.

My point is that fate is always determined by human choices and actions. God knows what those will be all throughout our lives but God does not CAUSE them by His knowing.

Shadow Wolf · Oct 24, 2020

chinu said:
you have to leave all your ego, belongings, and even your physical body behind in the world where you currently live.

That's a deal breaker. My body may cause me a great deal of suffering, but I need it to enjoy all the things that make being alive worthwhile. And no ego, that means I can't really enjoy it. And at that point I don't even exist anymore. That sounds as equally unappealing as cyber-conversion.

Bree · Oct 24, 2020

chinu said:
Permanent basis ?
What makes you sure he will NOW do this on permanent basis ?

it is 100% assured by the sacrifice of his firstborn Son Jesus. John 3:16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son,+ so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.+ 17 For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him

Jesus has been here, its evidence that Gods plan has been put into motion and the resurrection of Jesus from the dead (after his execution) is further proof that God will soon use his Son to cleans the earth of all who choose to destroy it. After his resurrection he appeared to his disciples and said
Matt28:18 “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.+ 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,+ baptizing them+ in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.+ And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”+

Well we are now living in that time of the 'conclusion of the system' ....bible prophecy is unfolding before us and we are moving closer and closer to the time when God will step in and bring an end to this wicked system. Now is the time to learn what is required of us and put our trust, faith and allegiance in him.

Why should God make world free from all sufferings ?

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