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Is it possible to investigate Bahaullah's claim?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Wrong!
All Muslim sons of Persia were students of Qu'ran.

I will add that I see you are mixing up childhood learning with religious studies taken later in life. The study that all who wished to become ulama would undertake, the study that Baha'u'llah said he did not take.

Or are you suggesting all what you are calling students of the Quran, went on and studied religion to the Ulama level?

In any case, one will have to explain why at the age of 13 Baha'u'llah was already teaching the Ulama.

I apologise, but I really get so frustrated when people exclude the obvious to try to prove what has no proof and was not used as proof by the enemies against Baha'u'llah.

The internet, unfortunately can not tell the whole story. Iran will soon be a great Nation and when that day comes, I see many things will become available and the proofs of Baha'u'llah will shine.

But that is my Faith in what Baha'u'llah offered, Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Isn't the OP focusing on a purported miracle?

Seems to me that they're trying to imply that Baha'u'llah had a miraculous knowledge of religions.

Pretty mundane as miracle claims go, but that still seems to be what it is.

Yes it can be seen that way, the Word of God can be said to be the greatest miracle.

Is it a miracle that God gives some a capacity of knowledge that others do not have? We could choose to see it as miraculous, or we can see it as God's bounty showing in ways we are humbled by.

Some people remember every moment of their lives and can recall all they read, is that a miracle or are they showing us there is a capacity we are yet to grasp?

Personally I see that is creation, there is a sun that gives light and life and then there is lack of light that results in darkness.

Humanity is the same. There is the guiding spirit/mind that gives life and then all levels right down to dark and closed spirit/minds.

I see Baha'u'llah, and all the Messengers are the embodiment of all knowledge past and future, not bound in time with limited frames of references.

Regards Tony
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
It must be then said that miracles are not used as proof in the Baha'i Writings. If any Baha'i was pushing that subject as a proof, they were not a deepened Baha'i.

If one chooses to read any works on the Baha'i Faith, miracles are not offered as proof of a Messenger and on RF when the topic comes up, the same is offered.
Regards Tony

Tony.......... What I perceive as the pretense that Bahauallah received all his religious knowledge without ever having studied religion is most certainly a typical example of 'the claim of a Bahai miracle'.

And it's too easy to see through it, imo.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I will add .....
I thought we were done?

I apologise, but I really get so frustrated when people exclude the obvious to try to prove what has no proof and was not used as proof by the enemies against Baha'u'llah.
That is just offensive.
The thread asks whether investigation about such claims is possible. You then decide that any who come to results that displease you or Bahai are 'enemies against Bahauallah'.

If Bahauallah made such claims, given his family status, his privilege and his resources....... then he could be described as being his own enemy, maybe?

The internet, unfortunately can not tell the whole story. Iran will soon be a great Nation and when that day comes, I see many things will become available and the proofs of Baha'u'llah will shine.

But that is my Faith in what Baha'u'llah offered, Regards Tony
The internet, most fortunately, has opened up quite a lot of truth about Bahai which previously was withheld, imo.

Thank God for the internet, Theists could say, for he must surely have wanted it for mankind.
Myself, I'm a Deist, and so don't believe in an involved God.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Tony.......... What I perceive as the pretense that Bahauallah received all his religious knowledge without ever having studied religion is most certainly a typical example of 'the claim of a Bahai miracle'.

And it's too easy to see through it, imo.

That is OK OB you can see it that way.

For a Baha'i it is recognised as God does as God Wills.

Why do some have Faith and some do not, as it is God that guides the heart?

That in itself can also be seen as a Miracle.

After all a Fisherman became one of the greatest religious scholars, and the Jewish Divines did not grasp the Message of Christ. That can be seen as the greatest miracle and if we see that it is, it also has to be seen that all the Mesengers likewise performed the same miracle.

Off to work, have a great day.

Regards Tony
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
That is OK OB you can see it that way.

For a Baha'i it is recognised as God does as God Wills.

Why do some have Faith and some do not, as it is God that guides the heart?

That in itself can also be seen as a Miracle.

After all a Fisherman became one of the greatest religious scholars, and the Jewish Divines did not grasp the Message of Christ. That can be seen as the greatest miracle and if we see that it is, it also has to be seen that all the Mesengers likewise performed the same miracle.

Off to work, have a great day.

Regards Tony
Well that couldn't have been Apostle John for sure.
He never was John Bar Zebedee.
Maybe you had Cephas in mind?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Tony.......... What I perceive as the pretense that Bahauallah received all his religious knowledge without ever having studied religion is most certainly a typical example of 'the claim of a Bahai miracle'.

And it's too easy to see through it, imo.
The idea that a person is totally infallible on all subjects would be some miracle as well.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Tony.......... What I perceive as the pretense that Bahauallah received all his religious knowledge without ever having studied religion is most certainly a typical example of 'the claim of a Bahai miracle'.

And it's too easy to see through it, imo.
If Bahaullah had substantial education in religion, why do you think there is no evidence for it?

Did Qulam Ahmad ghadiani have any substantial religious learning? Yes, you can easily find that info in Wikipedia. So, why there is nothing in history indicating Bahaullah had any substantial religious education?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I think Paul tries to claim he doesn't get anything from anyone, just God. I could be wrong.


It's also possible Jesus and his followers (and Paul) did as well. Jerusalem was a major stop for Eurasian road trips.
.
. :)
Jesus, or Paul lived 2000 years ago almost, when history is very unclear. It is difficult to know much about life of Jesus historically. But Bahaullah lived fairly close to our time, when generally history is clear. I mean, we should be able to find out if Bahaullah had any substantial education. if there was such a thing it would have been noted in history. people and historians would have known about it.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I thought we were done?


That is just offensive.
The thread asks whether investigation about such claims is possible. You then decide that any who come to results that displease you or Bahai are 'enemies against Bahauallah'.

If Bahauallah made such claims, given his family status, his privilege and his resources....... then he could be described as being his own enemy, maybe?


The internet, most fortunately, has opened up quite a lot of truth about Bahai which previously was withheld, imo.

Thank God for the internet, Theists could say, for he must surely have wanted it for mankind.
Myself, I'm a Deist, and so don't believe in an involved God.
Ohhh so that's what a Deist is -- an uninvolved God (whatever that means...but anyway). And a Theist is different from a Deist,I guess. Live and learn.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jesus, or Paul lived 2000 years ago almost, when history is very unclear.

It was? The more I study it, the clearer it becomes.

It is difficult to know much about life of Jesus historically. But Bahaullah lived fairly close to our time, when generally history is clear. I mean, we should be able to find out if Bahaullah had any substantial education. if there was such a thing it would have been noted in history. people and historians would have known about it.
Well, it's true we don't know about his teenage years. But we know quite a bit about his very young years when his parents were running away and then one incident where he was questioning the rabbis, and then later about his baptism and thereafter. We also do know quite a bit about the Roman armies and occupation. It's also true I know very little about the history of Bahaullah because although I read a little about the Bahai faith, I know very little about it right now.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
That would divert the OP.

Those stories are available and all I will offer in this OP is that in the end, they did not meet Baha'u'llah challenges, as they knew they could not match the wisdom.

So is there evidence that Baha'u'llah studied?

All I have found to date is that he received the childhood education that was available at the time and attended no advance religious studies.

Regards Tony
I don't see how providing that evidence would divert from the OP, Tony.
You did make the claim on the thread, that "What we can say though is that statement was made by Baha'u'llah as proof of His message in Persia. If it was false, what I think we would find is those that tried to discredit Baha'u'llah would have used the statement to show Baha'u'llah a Liar.", and the thread is about investigating Bahaulla's claim.

Surely you don't think your statement detracted from the OP, so how can supporting that claim detract?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
No claims of being a son / messenger / manifestation / mahdi of God or Allah in Abrahamic religions can be proved. Similarly, no claims of existence of God / Allah / soul / heaven / hell / judgment / end of days / being saved or condemned can be proved. They have to be accepted on faith / belief.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I saw post 59, there is nothing in it from Juan Cole.
I must have given you the wrong post number.
I can assure that Juan Cole is pasted here, explaining how Bahauallah was privately tutored in the subject matter necessary for a Persian Gentleman..... The Sword, Rifle/pistol, poetry, diplomacy, manners, riding, and like any young Muslim...... The Qu'ran.

The parents of Hafiz automatically would be received in to Heaven, IT.
Bahauallah's Father would not have ignored his son's education in the Qu'ran which discusses the person, life and mission of Jesus in 25 different places.

I don't believe Bahauallah's claim at all....... Here: ,,,,see how important it is for parents ..........
....... BUt Bahai pretends that Bahauallah's Father didn't bother. LOL.
Bahauallah's Father must have moved the Earth to save his son's skin in that dungeon, when all his mates were getting dragged out and killed.....
Her you are again....


A Why make your child a Hafiz?
Below are some motivational points to encourage us to help our children to treasure the Qur'an in their hearts:

1.Memorizing the Holy Qur’an creates strength in the child’s intellectual skills.
2.The child and it’s parents, moreover the whole lineage is graced by honour and diginity.
3.Eternal salvation from poverty and hunger gained through the removing the shortness of sustenance. (content of a Hadith)
4.Parents will be given a crown on the Day of Judgement, whichs light will be more than that of the sun.
5.Through the blessings of memorizing the Qur’an one is protected from going astray and wrong beliefs.
6.The whole life will become ‘Ibaadah when one recites in every situation some or other verses, because one has memorized the Holy Qur’an.
7.Through the blessings of the Holy Qur’an one is to a large extent protected from a life of game and play [Lahw wa La'ab].
8.By the intercession of a Hafiz 10 persons from his family are granted salvation. (provided that they are Muslims)
9.Allah Ta’ala appoints angels for the protection of a Hafiz-e-Qur’an.
10.A Hafiz will be granted the highest place of Jannah which he likes for himself.


What are the benefits that a Hafiz gets in this life and the next.

Allaah has given special privileges to the one who memorizes the Qur’aan in a number of ways in this world and in the Hereafter -

1 – He takes precedence over others in leading the prayer.
It was narrated that Abu Mas’ood al-Ansaari said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘The people should be led in prayer by the one among them who has the most knowledge of the Book of Allaah; if they are equal in knowledge of the Qur’aan, then by the one who has most knowledge of the Sunnah; if they are equal in knowledge of the Sunnah, then by the one who migrated (made hijrah) first; if they are equal in terms of hijrah, then by the one who became Muslim first. No man should lead another in prayer in his domain of authority, or sit in his place in his house, except with his permission.”
(Narrated by Muslim, 673)
It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar said: “When the first muhaajiroon (emigrants) came to Quba’, before the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came (to Madeenah), Saalim the freed slave of Abu Hudhayfah used to lead them in prayer, and he was the one who knew the most Qur’aan.”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 660)


2 – He is placed in front of others in a common grave, closer to the qiblah, if it is essential to bury him with others.
It was narrated that Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with them both) said: “The Prophet would wrap two of the men slain at Uhud in a single cloth, then he would ask, ‘Which of them knew more Qur’aan?’ If one of them was pointed out to him, he would put that one in the lahd (niche in the side of the grave) first. And he said, ‘I will be a witness over these people on the Day of Resurrection.’ He commanded that they should be buried with their blood, without being washed, and that no funeral prayer should be offered for them.”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1278)

3 – He takes precedence in leadership if he is able to bear that
It was narrated from ‘Aamir ibn Waathilah that Naafi’ ibn ‘Abd al-Haarith met ‘Umar in ‘Usfaan, and ‘Umar had appointed him as governor of Makkah. ‘Umar said, “Who have you appointed in charge of the people of the valley?” He said, “Ibn Abza.” ‘Umar asked, “Who is Ibn Abza?” He said, “One of our freed slaves.” Umar said, “Have you appointed over them a freed slave?!” He said, “He is well-versed in the Book of Allaah and he has knowledge of the laws of inheritance.” ‘Umar said: “Your Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Indeed, by this Book, Allaah would exalt some people and degrade others.’”
(Narrated by Muslim, 817)

With regards to the Hereafter:

4 – The status of the one who memorizes Qur’aan will be commensurate with the last aayah he memorized.
It was narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It will be said to the companion of the Qur’aan (i.e., the one who memorized and studied it): ‘Read, advance in status and recite as you used to do in the world, for your status will be commensurate with the last aayah that you recite.’”
(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 2914; he said this is a saheeh hasan hadeeth. Al-Albaani said in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, no. 2329, it is hasan saheeh. Also narrated by Abu Dawood, 1464).
What is meant by reciting here is memorizing.

5 – He will be with the angels, accompanying them.
It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The one who recites the Qur’aan and learns it by heart, will be with the noble righteous scribes (in Heaven) and the one who exerts himself to learn the Qur’aan by heart and recites it with great difficulty, will have a double reward.”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4653; Muslim, 798)
6 – He will be given a crown of honour and a garment of honour to wear.
It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Qur’aan will come on the Day of Resurrection and will say, ‘O Lord, adorn him.’ So he will be given a crown of honour to wear. Then it will say, ‘O Lord, give him more.’ So he will be given a garment of honour.’ Then it will say, ‘O Lord, be pleased with him.’ So Allaah will be pleased with him. Then it will be said to him, ‘Recite and advance in status, and for each verse you will gain one more hasanah (reward for good deed).”
(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 2915. He said, this is a saheeh hasan hadeeth. Al-Albaani said in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, 2328, this is hasan).
7 – The Qur’aan will intercede for him with his Lord.
It was narrated that Abu Umaamah al-Baahili said: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say, ‘Recite the Qur’aan, for it will come on the Day of Resurrection to intercede for its companions. Recite the two bright ones, al-Baqarah and Soorat Aal ‘Imraan, for they will come on the Day of Resurrection like two clouds or two shades or two flocks of birds in ranks, pleading for those who recite them. Recite Soorat al-Baqarah for to take recourse to it is a blessing and to give it up is a cause of grief, and the magicians cannot confront it.”
(Narrated by Muslim, 804, and by al-Bukhaari ).


Secondly:
With regard to his relatives and descendents, there is evidence concerning his parents that they will be clothed with garments which far surpass everything to be found in this world, and that will only be because they took care of and taught their child. Even if they themselves were ignorant, Allaah will honour them because of their child. But the one who prevented his child from learning the Qur’aan, he will be one of those who will be deprived.
It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘The Qur’aan will come on the Day of Resurrection like a pale man saying to its companion, “Do you recognize me? I am the one who made you stay up at night and made you thirsty during the day…” Then he will be given dominion in his right hand and eternity in his left, and a crown of dignity will be placed upon his head, and his parents will be clothed with garments which far surpass everything to be found in this world. They will say, “O Lord, how did we earn this.” It will be said to them, “Because you taught your child the Qur’aan.”’”
(Narrated by al-Tabaraani in al-Awsat, 6/51).
It was narrated that Buraydah said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever reads the Qur’aan, learns it and acts in accordance with it, on the Day of Resurrection his parents will be given a crown to wear whose light will be like the light of the sun, and his parents will be given garments which far surpass everything to be found in this world. They will say, “Why have we been given this to wear?” It will be said, “Because your child learned the Qur’aan.”’”
(Narrated by al-Haakim, 1/756)
Copyright © 2012 Islam Pretoria.
All Rights Reserved.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Ohhh so that's what a Deist is -- an uninvolved God (whatever that means...but anyway). And a Theist is different from a Deist,I guess. Live and learn.
Yes........ All is God, far too vast to even be aware of us.
Look at your wrist under a magnifier....... Now, take notice of one single tiny hair there. It is part of you, but you never even noticed it before. :)

A bit like that.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Jesus, or Paul lived 2000 years ago almost, when history is very unclear. It is difficult to know much about life of Jesus historically. But Bahaullah lived fairly close to our time, when generally history is clear. I mean, we should be able to find out if Bahaullah had any substantial education. if there was such a thing it would have been noted in history. people and historians would have known about it.

I have been reading up a bit. In this book called Bahaullah and the new Era, Esslemont claims that Abdul Baha himself claimed that Bahaullah was very highly educated (Doesnt say anything about formal education. Just education).

"When He was only thirteen of fourteen years old He became renowned for His learning. He would converse on any subject and solve any problem presented to Him. In large gatherings He would discuss matters with the Ulama and would explain intricate religious questions."


I know that this statement contradicts with his other writings but is of particular interest to me since this topic came up. I am not interested in discussing the contradictions but lets take a historical approach to this.

There is an extensively well researched book or series called "Encyclopedia of modern Middle East and North Africa" which explains that during the era of Bahaullah in the early 19th century the Ulama of the traditional madrasa were teaching in the so called "New Schools" as well. And it clearly states that religious education took a stand of preeminence in Iran. This was a time when Egypt and Iran and the likes were competing against each other to modernise their armies, and educate their children. They even sent children to Europe for education and that was as a movement, not just parents sending one child to be educated in a European university. This shows the importance shown for education in the region. Thus, religious education was of "preeminence" and general education was booming and thriving in Iran at the time. At least the government was very interested in educating their children. Also, the Ulama being so strong and themselves being educators its pretty evident that religious education and general education went hand in hand in Iran.

Anyway I know how a Hafiz school works for young children (resident). This is a tradition that dates back to time immemorial where children will have their formal general education along with the Huffaz education. So even in the religious institute, general education is imposed upon children.

Bahaullah's father being a state minister and a close associate of the prime minister at there time typically would put his kids to be educated. Being a family that held many high positions in the government, civil and military occupations in the main city of Tehran, you would expect their children to at least have some education in theology. Its almost implausible that a high end minister of the government not making any effort to have at least one year of education for his children when the government is making a lot of effort to educate their general citizens. After his fathers death according to legend Bahaullah was offered his position in the government but he refused. I would like to think that the Prime Minister would not so closely offer him that level of recognition and position without a day of education.

It just seems highly probable that he would have had some education. As Esslemont himself says "He never attended school or college, and what little teaching He received was given at home." thus he means to say that he had some education at home. There is a chance that his father educated him at home. But its also probable that he had some formal education due to the general reasons I have given in this post.

The Vizier in an Islamic country is highly educated in the Shariah. It is obvious. A close associate of the Prime Minister and a Vizier in Iran would have very high levels of education in Fikh. It is only natural that he would consider his kids for education. Thats just another reason. I find it of particular interest that Abdul Baha in "Some Answered questions" would say that Bahaullah never associated with any Ulama but in another place say that he spoke and discussed with Ulama with a lot of intellect. This is a conflict that I cannot resolve. I also highly doubt that the Prime Minister would personally offer the fathers position of Vazir with no knowledge in the religious law.

Peace.
 
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