YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
There goes Halloween 'celebration' then.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Is it possible to investigate Bahaullah's claim?
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
People hear, and sometimes believe, messages is what I'm saying. Halloween is coming up.I think Paul tries to claim he doesn't get anything from anyone, just God. I could be wrong.
It's also possible Jesus and his followers (and Paul) did as well. Jerusalem was a major stop for Eurasian road trips.
Lots of people don't even know the details of their own religion.
You haven't seen Good Will Hunting, have you?
I've read Bahai posts for awhile now. There's nothing I see truly mind-blowing. It's just as derivative as all the others.
Not saying that's bad. It's just not original.
And in the interest of knowledge, Satan isn't in that story at all.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
I think we've sorted this out, Tony.
1. All Shia Muslims hope for their sons to be Hafiz. All Muslim sons learned the Quran.
2. The parents of Hafiz automatically reach Heaven, so there's plenty to encourage parents to teach their children.
3. Bahauallah learned what were regarded as important subjects, shooting, the sword, diplomacy, social manners, geography, poetry and riding..... AND THE QURAN!
4. The Quran refers to Jesus, with some references to the gospels, esp Luke (it seems) and this is no doubt where Bahauallah picked up on Christianity.
5. Bahauallah was right when he said that no children from his city had ever seen him at school ........ because he received a private education.
Bahauallah did not know nor could not quote from the gospels from memory or God sent info.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
She was lacking discrimination. What serpent said to her, sounded bad to me. Bahaullah does not sound bad. That's the difference.
I have sorted it out OB. I know that I have not found any record by any Muslim of that time, used as proof of an education, against Baha'u'llah's claim.
I know it matters not what I offer, I know you wish to find it is not as Baha'u'llah offered.
Matthew 24:29–31
Luke 21:33.
Matthew 2:2.
Matthew 3:1–2.
Isaiah 65:25.
John 3:7.
John 3:5 - 6.
Luke 9:60.
Luke 5:18–26.
The above passages are quoted in but one Tablet, the Kitab-i-Iqan.
Stay Happy OB, I will not say much more to you on this.
Regards Tony
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
If I understand you correctly, that's what I'm saying. The bad sounds good and the good sounds bad to some.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Those who searcheth will findeth.....
I knoweth it matter not what I offereth to thee, I knoweth that thou will find as thou wishest.
..... have that back.
And how old was Bahauallah by then?
You think he couldn't afford a bible when grown up?
The Qu'ran quotes and maketh mention of Jesus 25 times but in the Kitab-i-Iqan Bahauallah made mention of Jesus but eight times, it seems.
It might be best that you don't, Tony.
No able Muslim parent would fail to teach their sons the Qu'ran, Tony. None!
A son who can recite the Qu'ran guarantees his parents a place in Heaven, Tony!
Here:- read this, it makes this fact quite clear. Save it!
And please don't tell me that I follow an agenda, I simply research, Tony.
Why make your child a Hafiz?
Below are some motivational points to encourage us to help our children to treasure the Qur'an in their hearts:
1.Memorizing the Holy Qur’an creates strength in the child’s intellectual skills.
2.The child and it’s parents, moreover the whole lineage is graced by honour and diginity.
3.Eternal salvation from poverty and hunger gained through the removing the shortness of sustenance. (content of a Hadith)
4.Parents will be given a crown on the Day of Judgement, whichs light will be more than that of the sun.
5.Through the blessings of memorizing the Qur’an one is protected from going astray and wrong beliefs.
6.The whole life will become ‘Ibaadah when one recites in every situation some or other verses, because one has memorized the Holy Qur’an.
7.Through the blessings of the Holy Qur’an one is to a large extent protected from a life of game and play [Lahw wa La'ab].
8.By the intercession of a Hafiz 10 persons from his family are granted salvation. (provided that they are Muslims)
9.Allah Ta’ala appoints angels for the protection of a Hafiz-e-Qur’an.
10.A Hafiz will be granted the highest place of Jannah which he likes for himself.
What are the benefits that a Hafiz gets in this life and the next.
Allaah has given special privileges to the one who memorizes the Qur’aan in a number of ways in this world and in the Hereafter -
1 – He takes precedence over others in leading the prayer.
It was narrated that Abu Mas’ood al-Ansaari said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘The people should be led in prayer by the one among them who has the most knowledge of the Book of Allaah; if they are equal in knowledge of the Qur’aan, then by the one who has most knowledge of the Sunnah; if they are equal in knowledge of the Sunnah, then by the one who migrated (made hijrah) first; if they are equal in terms of hijrah, then by the one who became Muslim first. No man should lead another in prayer in his domain of authority, or sit in his place in his house, except with his permission.”
(Narrated by Muslim, 673)
It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar said: “When the first muhaajiroon (emigrants) came to Quba’, before the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came (to Madeenah), Saalim the freed slave of Abu Hudhayfah used to lead them in prayer, and he was the one who knew the most Qur’aan.”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 660)
2 – He is placed in front of others in a common grave, closer to the qiblah, if it is essential to bury him with others.
It was narrated that Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with them both) said: “The Prophet would wrap two of the men slain at Uhud in a single cloth, then he would ask, ‘Which of them knew more Qur’aan?’ If one of them was pointed out to him, he would put that one in the lahd (niche in the side of the grave) first. And he said, ‘I will be a witness over these people on the Day of Resurrection.’ He commanded that they should be buried with their blood, without being washed, and that no funeral prayer should be offered for them.”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1278)
3 – He takes precedence in leadership if he is able to bear that
It was narrated from ‘Aamir ibn Waathilah that Naafi’ ibn ‘Abd al-Haarith met ‘Umar in ‘Usfaan, and ‘Umar had appointed him as governor of Makkah. ‘Umar said, “Who have you appointed in charge of the people of the valley?” He said, “Ibn Abza.” ‘Umar asked, “Who is Ibn Abza?” He said, “One of our freed slaves.” Umar said, “Have you appointed over them a freed slave?!” He said, “He is well-versed in the Book of Allaah and he has knowledge of the laws of inheritance.” ‘Umar said: “Your Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Indeed, by this Book, Allaah would exalt some people and degrade others.’”
(Narrated by Muslim, 817)
With regards to the Hereafter:
4 – The status of the one who memorizes Qur’aan will be commensurate with the last aayah he memorized.
It was narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It will be said to the companion of the Qur’aan (i.e., the one who memorized and studied it): ‘Read, advance in status and recite as you used to do in the world, for your status will be commensurate with the last aayah that you recite.’”
(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 2914; he said this is a saheeh hasan hadeeth. Al-Albaani said in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, no. 2329, it is hasan saheeh. Also narrated by Abu Dawood, 1464).
What is meant by reciting here is memorizing.
5 – He will be with the angels, accompanying them.
It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The one who recites the Qur’aan and learns it by heart, will be with the noble righteous scribes (in Heaven) and the one who exerts himself to learn the Qur’aan by heart and recites it with great difficulty, will have a double reward.”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4653; Muslim, 798)
6 – He will be given a crown of honour and a garment of honour to wear.
It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Qur’aan will come on the Day of Resurrection and will say, ‘O Lord, adorn him.’ So he will be given a crown of honour to wear. Then it will say, ‘O Lord, give him more.’ So he will be given a garment of honour.’ Then it will say, ‘O Lord, be pleased with him.’ So Allaah will be pleased with him. Then it will be said to him, ‘Recite and advance in status, and for each verse you will gain one more hasanah (reward for good deed).”
(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 2915. He said, this is a saheeh hasan hadeeth. Al-Albaani said in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, 2328, this is hasan).
7 – The Qur’aan will intercede for him with his Lord.
It was narrated that Abu Umaamah al-Baahili said: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say, ‘Recite the Qur’aan, for it will come on the Day of Resurrection to intercede for its companions. Recite the two bright ones, al-Baqarah and Soorat Aal ‘Imraan, for they will come on the Day of Resurrection like two clouds or two shades or two flocks of birds in ranks, pleading for those who recite them. Recite Soorat al-Baqarah for to take recourse to it is a blessing and to give it up is a cause of grief, and the magicians cannot confront it.”
(Narrated by Muslim, 804, and by al-Bukhaari ).
Secondly:
With regard to his relatives and descendents, there is evidence concerning his parents that they will be clothed with garments which far surpass everything to be found in this world, and that will only be because they took care of and taught their child. Even if they themselves were ignorant, Allaah will honour them because of their child. But the one who prevented his child from learning the Qur’aan, he will be one of those who will be deprived.
It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘The Qur’aan will come on the Day of Resurrection like a pale man saying to its companion, “Do you recognize me? I am the one who made you stay up at night and made you thirsty during the day…” Then he will be given dominion in his right hand and eternity in his left, and a crown of dignity will be placed upon his head, and his parents will be clothed with garments which far surpass everything to be found in this world. They will say, “O Lord, how did we earn this.” It will be said to them, “Because you taught your child the Qur’aan.”’”
(Narrated by al-Tabaraani in al-Awsat, 6/51).
It was narrated that Buraydah said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever reads the Qur’aan, learns it and acts in accordance with it, on the Day of Resurrection his parents will be given a crown to wear whose light will be like the light of the sun, and his parents will be given garments which far surpass everything to be found in this world. They will say, “Why have we been given this to wear?” It will be said, “Because your child learned the Qur’aan.”’”
(Narrated by al-Haakim, 1/756)
Copyright © 2012 Islam Pretoria.
All Rights Reserved.
So according to OB reasoning, all sons of Persia were scholars of the Quran.
OK, I am happy for you to see it happen that way.
As per the OP, I see you have proven, at this time, it may not be possible to justly investigate the claim made by Baha'u'llah.
Catch you another time OB. Wish all the best to your better half and I hope you stay away from Covid-19, hard times in your neck of the woods!
Regards Tony
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Try to make the bad sound good is one thing, but try to make the good sound bad is a whole different story
BUT it is good to be aware that we better use common sense and discrimination and not believe blind
Last edited:
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
There was a difference in your way and my way
You sounded a little bit like the snake ... but the inverse, whispering in my ear that the good I see in Bahaullah might be bad
Just be upfront, and give me one verse of Bahaullah that is bad in your opinion THEN we know soon if He is good or bad
That feels better than insinuating someone (Bahaullah) might be bad (esp. comparing to the snake from the Bible)
Last edited:
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Wrong!
All Muslim sons of Persia were students of Qu'ran.
It was a doddle to find that Bahauallah's claim was not true.
And I had the info to back up the results of my search.
Easy.
And to you, Tony.
firedragon
Veteran Member
I respect your slide of deduction in this post. Its a good approach to an analysis.
I would like to point out somethings. I am no scholar in Bahai theology or history, but I have read some of the work from manuscript to translation. With the presupposition that Bahai was just a man, his level of knowledge in the Bible or the New Testament was not just what he picked up from the Qur'an. He had knowledge of the New Testament independently. In fact, his knowledge of Christianity or/and the New Testament is very different from the Qur'an. Thus, if he received some kind of education, or if he educated himself on the books he did them independently. I would like to say that he had the KJV with him. That is me ascribing no divinity to him.
Sure.
I understand from Baha'i sources that Baha'u'llah was born into "all the advantages conferred by noble birth." This would presumably include an education, whether in a school or by a tutor.
I'm sure it would be relatively easy to find out what the "standard" educational curriculum would look like for a well-to-do Persian family of that era. It would stand to reason that this was the education that Baha'u'llah received unless:
- you can find specific details on what he was tought (lesson plans, exam results, etc.)
- you can find correspondence or other indirect sources about Baha'u'llah's education (e.g. a letter from one uncle to another: "I'm so worried about our nephew Mirza - his tutor isn't teaching him anything about religion at all!")
Absent that evidence, it would likely seem that Baha'u'llah was lying, or at least mistaken.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Yes.... I understand your point exactly.
For me it looks Asif he received a private education with close attention to the Qu'ran, and that in adulthood many books were available to him.
5O years ago Baha'i tended to focus more closely on the miracles of Bahauallah, but this fashion seems to have withdrawn in recent years. But this claim shown in the OP reminds me of those distant days.
Told by who?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Only problem is old badger, this is all speculation. I like your method of deduction, but still we end up with speculation. I dont mean to offend you.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
It's history.
Nearly all of history is spec, based upon the balance of probabilities and possibilities .
And so it is for each person to scrutinize what evidence is available and to come to their own conclusions.
I am content with that
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
You were told wrong.
Bahauallah received a full private education as listed by zJuan Cole
Read post 59 to see how important it was for Muslim parents to have a Hafiz son.
Anyway, who told you that?
It must be then said that miracles are not used as proof in the Baha'i Writings. If any Baha'i was pushing that subject as a proof, they were not a deepened Baha'i.
If one chooses to read any works on the Baha'i Faith, miracles are not offered as proof of a Messenger and on RF when the topic comes up, the same is offered.
The fact is no Baha'i with any knowledge of the writings and message of Baha'u'llah will focus on Miracles, as Baha'u'llah has taken them off the table as proof.
Baha'u'llah showed how perverse it was to thirst after miracles, yet reject the word of God being offered, the true miracle. Abdu'l-Baha summed it up nicely;
"I do not wish to mention the miracles of Bahá’u’lláh, for it may perhaps be said that these are traditions, liable both to truth and to error, like the accounts of the miracles of Christ in the Gospel, which come to us from the apostles, and not from anyone else, and are denied by the Jews . . . Yes, miracles are proofs for the eyewitness only, and even he may regard them not as a miracle but as an enchantment. Extraordinary feats have also been related of some conjurors. Briefly, my meaning is that many wonderful things were done by Bahá’u’lláh, but we do not recount them, as they do not constitute proofs and evidences for all the peoples of the earth, and they are not decisive proofs even for those who see them: they may think that they are merely enchantments. Also, most of the miracles of the Prophets which are mentioned have an inner significance . . . Our purpose is not to deny such miracles; our only meaning is that they do not constitute decisive proofs, and that they have an inner significance. 'Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 37
Regards Tony
Isn't the OP focusing on a purported miracle?
Seems to me that they're trying to imply that Baha'u'llah had a miraculous knowledge of religions.
Pretty mundane as miracle claims go, but that still seems to be what it is.