Is it possible to investigate Bahaullah's claim?

firedragon said:

I cannot make any comments of where he got his knowledge from or if he had any formal education etc because I have not come across solid documentation on that subject.

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Well, that is the question in OP. In another words, if Bahaullah had education, it would have been mentioned in history, at least by His enemies and opposition, so they may refute His claim. For in formation, there are just many books written by the enemies of Bahai faith, trying to refute Bahaullah.

But what I can and do say is that there are discrepancies in what he says or at least what I feel are discrepancies.

For example, Bahaullah speaks of "corruption of the text" which apparently Muhammed was told by Gabriel about the Jews and their scripture. He says that this was about the Jews who lived at his time who were misinterpreting their Pentateuch, not that the text itself is perverted.

The problem I have is that it was myth, and its still a myth that the Quran mentions anything about Jews perverting their text. What it says is that people wrote books( کتب ) by their own hands and claimed it was from God. Perverting a text is where you intentionally edit, cut and paste, infer and interpolate to change the story. Well, that has indeed happened in text. But what the Quran says is the foundational claim by people that what they wrote by hand was Gods work itself.

So this is a contradiction.

In my opinion this is a problem of lack of scholarship. Though Bahaullah had knowledge, his knowledge is not deep. It lacked scholarship. So he wrote down the myth that was circulating around at that time with apologists and non-muslim critics that Muhammed thought Jews and Christians perverted the texts, but scholarship has shown that its not the case. The Quran did not say anywhere they perverted the text which is a very much existing myth even today. It says people wrote them. Not God. People just claimed they were from God.

Thats not to offend anyone.

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This is a separate topic, worthy of its own thread. If you wish, you can open a separate thread discussing it farther. But briefly, I give my view on that here, since you brought it up. The Quranic verse you are refering, does not name, which books(کتب) they wrote and claimed it to be from God. So, if you think, this is referring to Torah, you are reading more than what it says. The tense of the verse is present tense. It does not say," they wrote". It says "they write". So, that has to do with people who were present at the time. This means some Jewish leaders who lived at the time of Muhammad, wrote their own interpretations of Bible, saying this is what God is saying. Suppose today, a Muslim clergy writes a book, interpreting Quran, and saying this is what Allah says.

It is the same with the verse of Quran you are referring. Now, because at they time of Muhammad, no body had this presupposition that Bible was corrupted, no body misunderstood it to mean , as writing a corrupted Bible, saying this is from God. But some centuries after Quran the Muslims started adding this idea that, the Bible text was corrupted. Since you are reading this verse with a preconceived idea, it appears to you, it is talking about corruption in text of Torah. I hope what I am trying to describe here is clear.

I also, refer you to this site, which shows, the idea that Bible is corrupted, started some centuries after Muhammad.


Islam teaches the Torah is corrupted / tahrif, but what does that mean? | Judaism and Islam – comparing the similarities between Judaism and Islam

InvestigateTruth said:

One of the major claims Bahaullah made, was that, He did not have education in religion, however, when we read His Writings which are just many, we see He had detail knowledge of Religions.
Well, then He claims, He did not acquire His knowledge through human learning, but rather He was given all knowledge to Him by God.


Let's set aside whether or not He received any knowledge from God for the purpose of this discussion.

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I don't see the problem here
Once Sai Baba explained a Scripture to me in dream, which I was not able to read before, but I was able to read after the dream

So, God can do miracles, that is a fact. Therefore, I have no doubt that Bahaullah got His knowledge from God

When I see Bahaullah's words it's obvious to me, that He got it from God; His Words are just too good

InvestigateTruth said:

One of the major claims Bahaullah made, was that, He did not have education in religion, however, when we read His Writings which are just many, we see He had detail knowledge of Religions.
Well, then He claims, He did not acquire His knowledge through human learning, but rather He was given all knowledge to Him by God.


Let's set aside whether or not He received any knowledge from God for the purpose of this discussion.

The Question is: Is it possible to investigate this subject through available historical sources, and any other methods to come to a concrete conclusion if Bahaullah did not have any human learning in the subject of religions in particular? If possibly He had any education, how much was it, and what subject and at what level exactly?

Are there enough historical resources or anything else available to us to know if, indeed Bahaullah had not studied subjects of religions?




In His letter to the King of the Time, the ruler of Persia, Bahaullah wrote the following letter:

"I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely."

Baha'u'llah

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I believe we can take his statement at face value that he believed he heard from God. Many people do believe that but not all have. Unless there is a fulfilled prophecy there is only one other way to tell and that is if what he heard is the same as what I heard and even better what Jesus said. I believe there are writings where the B man has said things contrary to what God says.

InvestigateTruth said:

It is true Bahaullah was the son of a rich official. But how can we know, if He received fine education in religion? Sounds like too quick Judgement to me.

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I would think a rich official would want a secular education for his son. However the family could have been religious probably Muslim but even possibly Zoroastrian.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Then we would have to consider all the times that religious tradition was quoted, and all the learned divines did not know of the tradition until they researched the quote.

From my study those random quotes were first used to discredit the knowledge shown by Baha'u'llah, until they found out otherwise, then sorcery was then accused.

We could also consider why the most learned divines wanted to silence Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

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I believe sorcery is too harsh. It may be that he had a spirit guide as many gurus claim to have. One does not always get the straight dope from a spirit guide.

InvestigateTruth said:

Well, that is the question in OP. In another words, if Bahaullah had education, it would have been mentioned in history, at least by His enemies and opposition, so they may refute His claim. For in formation, there are just many books written by the enemies of Bahai faith, trying to refute Bahaullah.

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In that area sis, I am completely uneducated. So if I responded irrelevantly I apologise. I don't have any documentation on this, and so far it has not been my focus. I think gossip about Bahaullah's personal education is just gossip. And not for me. So mind my ignorance, and ignore my post.

Peace.

Kelly of the Phoenix said:

I've read Bahai posts for awhile now. There's nothing I see truly mind-blowing. It's just as derivative as all the others.

Not saying that's bad. It's just not original.

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I have come to see that as the Message God gives is suited to the age it paves the way to how our mind perceives reality.

When the Message is originally given, it is ground breaking and controversial. As the years roll on that way of living starts permeating the minds of men.

So here we are, some 176 years after the Bab's declaration and people no longer see the teachings as ground breaking, but as logical steps to find our peace and unity.

Eventually a majority see that the motivation of their heart had a source and embrace that source.

Baha'u'llah has offered in this age, that the source of our religious morality is but One God, through the one Holy Spirit, in the many Names of God.

Regards Tony

oldbadger said:

Hello Tony.
You know Bahauallah grew up in a very rich and influential family environs.
Probably received a 100% private education.

In any case, do you think that he studied the Koran?
Do you think he achieved the station of Hafiz?

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Good morning OB. Thank you for the question.

I am aware of Baha'u'llah birth and upbringing. All the records I have read say Baha'u'llah received the education received by children of that time. There was no teacher that could teach both the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah spent most of his time helping others, pursuing an education was not needed.

I have not seen any records for any advanced education and Baha'u'llah has said he had none other than what was given to the child at that time.

As such if it was a false statement, it is only logical the Islam priests would have used that statement to prove Baha'u'llah a liar, as Baha'u'llah offered;

"... The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely...."

If there was an education to be found, it is only very logical it would have been used to prove that statement false.

Regards Tony

InvestigateTruth said:

We are told, that in Persia, 19th century, the education for children of noble families, did not include a detail learning of the Quran or any other religion.
To master religion, there were special schools for religious learning. Bahaullah did not go to this school, and also, as youth there is no evidence He studied religion. As a child, and early youth, Bahaullah received some basic reading writing, poetry, basic Quran reading, or basic Arabic reading of some chapters of the Quran.

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So you're telling us all that Bahauallah never received tuition in the Koran, was never a Hafiz.

Please confirm.....

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Good morning OB. Thank you for the question.

I am aware of Baha'u'llah birth and upbringing. All the records I have read say Baha'u'llah received the education received by children of that time. There was no teacher that could teach both the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah spent most of his time helping others, pursuing an education was not needed.

I have not seen any records for any advanced education and Baha'u'llah has said he had none other than what was given to the child at that time.

As such if it was a false statement, it is only logical the Islam priests would have used that statement to prove Baha'u'llah a liar, as Baha'u'llah offered;

"... The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely...."

If there was an education to be found, it is only very logical it would have been used to prove that statement false.

Regards Tony

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That is a No answer.

Bahauallah was not a Hafiz.

Every Muslim wants their child to be Hafiz because such an ability guaranteed the parents a place in heaven..... But Bahauallah's family never bothered to educate him.

Please confirm this.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I see what was asked is if there is proof of a higher education in religious study.

Regards Tony

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Please tell us all in simple clarity.
Was Bahauallah a studied Hafiz or not? Yes or No .... or 'don't know' ?
Which?

firedragon said:

I cannot make any comments of where he got his knowledge from or if he had any formal education etc because I have not come across solid documentation on that subject..........

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Your post, above, was sent to another.....
I 'clicked' on it in order to ask you a question.

In your experience, do most Muslim parents teach their sons the Qu'ran?
Do most parents hope that their children might be Hafiz?

oldbadger said:

That is a No answer.

Bahauallah was not a Hafiz.

Every Muslim wants their child to be Hafiz because such an ability guaranteed the parents a place in heaven..... But Bahauallah's family never bothered to educate him.

Please confirm this.

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I can not confirm what was not a fact OB.

This is the information that is available.

Education
"In his early life he had a relatively limited education (which was normal for the class from which he came). He learned horsemanship (he was known as a fine horseman), swordsmanship, poetry and calligraphy (he was also renowned as an excellent poet and calligrapher).

His Islamic education was strictly non-technical, but despite this, his knowledge of Islam (and of other religions) was far beyond what could have been expected of someone from the wealthy governing class.

This is important because Bahá'u'lláh used his limited education to reinforce his claim to divine revelation. He argued that since he had not spent years studying the Qur'an and Arabic, how else could he be able to write as he did in Arabic? And there is no evidence to suggest that he devised his writings through his own intellectual thoughts."

If that is false, I am sure Persia would have released applicable information.

Regards Tony

oldbadger said:

Please tell us all in simple clarity.
Was Bahauallah a studied Hafiz or not? Yes or No .... or 'don't know' ?
Which?

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I thought that was clear.

Baha'u'llah said No, I accept Baha'u'llah tells the truth.

There are no records that state otherwise.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I can not confirm what was not a fact OB.

This is the information that is available.

Education
"In his early life he had a relatively limited education (which was normal for the class from which he came). He learned horsemanship (he was known as a fine horseman), swordsmanship, poetry and calligraphy (he was also renowned as an excellent poet and calligrapher).

His Islamic education was strictly non-technical, but despite this, his knowledge of Islam (and of other religions) was far beyond what could have been expected of someone from the wealthy governing class.

This is important because Bahá'u'lláh used his limited education to reinforce his claim to divine revelation. He argued that since he had not spent years studying the Qur'an and Arabic, how else could he be able to write as he did in Arabic? And there is no evidence to suggest that he devised his writings through his own intellectual thoughts."

If that is false, I am sure Persia would have released applicable information.

Regards Tony

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Not so.......
Yet another Bahai 'wriggle', I think?

Bahauallah learned the Quran until he could just read it out...
In which case he learned all that he needed to know about the bible and the Quran version of Christianity, which I think he parroted in later life.

Source:-

Birth and Childhood of Baha'u'llah

Schooling
As He grew up, Bahá'u'lláh desired no schooling. He received a little customary education at home, in riding, using a sword or gun, good manners, calligraphy, poetries, and the ability to read out the words of the Qur'an.

oldbadger said:

Not so.......
Yet another Bahai 'wriggle', I think?

Bahauallah learned the Quran until he could just read it out...
In which case he learned all that he needed to know about the bible and the Quran version of Christianity, which I think he parroted in later life.

Source:-

Birth and Childhood of Baha'u'llah

Schooling
As He grew up, Bahá'u'lláh desired no schooling. He received a little customary education at home, in riding, using a sword or gun, good manners, calligraphy, poetries, and the ability to read out the words of the Qur'an.

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This is that full passage.

"As He grew up, Bahá'u'lláh desired no schooling. He received a little customary education at home, in riding, using a sword or gun, good manners, calligraphy, poetries, and the ability to read out the words of the Qur'an.

Despite a lack education, Bahá'u'lláh shone forth in wisdom and ability, and all who knew Bahá'u'lláh were astonished. It was usual for them to say, that such a child will not live beyond maturity."

Personally I know that in chidren classes, we teach children to memorise and quote passages from the Holy books.

Thus it would be obvious this would be part of education.

By 13 Baha'u'llah could discuss and subject, from the same link.

Skill and Renown
" By the time he was thirteen, Bahá'u'lláh was renowned for His ability to discuss any matter, and resolve any problem presented before Him.

He was always courteous and patient, and only the disrespectful reference to a Messenger or Chosen One of God was able to arouse His displeasure; even then, He would address the offender with kindliness and calm.

He appeared before large gatherings in discussions with the leading clergy, resolving intricate religious questions, whilst everyone paid deep attention and interest, and His explanations became the authoritative word on every matter.

Despite these abilities, the kulah on His head and the locks flowing over His shoulders meant no one ever suspected a person of such a class would become the fountain of a new Truth and revitalising Spirit."

Regards Tony

InvestigateTruth said:

One of the major claims Bahaullah made, was that, He did not have education in religion, however, when we read His Writings which are just many, we see He had detail knowledge of Religions.
Well, then He claims, He did not acquire His knowledge through human learning, but rather He was given all knowledge to Him by God.

Click to expand...

A little investigation throws plenty of light upon all of this.

The Question is: Is it possible to investigate this subject through available historical sources, and any other methods to come to a concrete conclusion if Bahaullah did not have any human learning in the subject of religions in particular? If possibly He had any education, how much was it, and what subject and at what level exactly?

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He had a fine education.....

In His letter to the King of the Time, the ruler of Persia, Bahaullah wrote the following letter:

"I was but a man like others, ............................. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely."

Baha'u'llah

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Ah ha! Tricky!!!!
Yes! Ask any from his city and they would tell you 'He was not here, not with us'.!!!
Of course he wasn't.....!!! .... like all highly privileged children he received personal training and teaching.

He did receive close-teaching in the Quran, as well as in all gentleman's subjects such as riding, shooting, sword, map-reading, poetry and THE QURAN!

Ordinary children were taught the Quran, and in many schools today that is the main subject matter in madrassas, if they can still do this without interruption from Government teaching bodies.

But Bahauallah didn't know that much about the Gospels, because he didn't quote from them as far as I have found.... and so his knowledge about Christianity must have come from his studies of the Quran and talking amongst his own.

No Problem......... but no God given special knowledge, I'm afraid.

oldbadger said:

But Bahauallah didn't know that much about the Gospels, because he didn't quote from them as far as I have found.... and so his knowledge about Christianity must have come from his studies of t

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The Baha'i Writings contain many Biblical quotes.

Regards Tony

oldbadger said:

Your post, above, was sent to another.....
I 'clicked' on it in order to ask you a question.

In your experience, do most Muslim parents teach their sons the Qu'ran?
Do most parents hope that their children might be Hafiz?

Click to expand...

Yes. True.

stvdv said:

I don't see the problem here
Once Sai Baba explained a Scripture to me in dream, which I was not able to read before, but I was able to read after the dream

So, God can do miracles, that is a fact. Therefore, I have no doubt that Bahaullah got His knowledge from God

When I see Bahaullah's words it's obvious to me, that He got it from God; His Words are just too good

Click to expand...

Really don't know too much about Bahai, but if you believe at all in anything the Bible says, what the serpent said to Eve sounded good to her.