The Restitution Of All Things

FineLinen said:

Surely you jest!

"Beloved, we are God’s children right now; however, it is not yet apparent what we will become. But we do know that when it is finally made visible, we will be just like him, for we will see him as he truly is. And all who focus their hope on him will always be purifying themselves, just as Jesus is pure. Anyone who indulges in sin lives in moral anarchy, for the definition of sin is breaking God’s law. And you know without a doubt that Jesus was revealed to eradicate sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in union with him will not sin. But the one who continues sinning hasn’t seen him with discernment or known him by intimate experience." -TPT

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You say - " Anyone who continues to live in union with him will not sin"

Would you agree that a christian can so sin to be lost?

B/c the following scriptures teach one saved can so sin to be lost.

In fact (Acts 8:22) and (1Jn 1:9) defines how a erring child of God (a christian) is to be made right once again with God. This proves a christian can sin and be lost.

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

(Heb. 10:25-31) (James 4:17) (2Peter 2:20-22) (Luke 15) (Rom 14:23) (Luke 17:3,4) (Mt. 18:15-17) (Acts 8:13-24).


Note also that some christians faith were overthrown by false doctrine.

2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

FineLinen said:

Thomas: I know not who "you guys" are.

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universalists. Proponents of Universal Reconciliation. Those who teach that everyone will be saved.

FineLinen said:

the Larger Hope [= universal reconciliation, added mine]

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= the larger evil for those who used to be victims on earth, I'm afraid.
For me, this is no fun issue. Safety is important.

FineLinen said:

I despise sin and all that flows from it. In the final details of Reconciliation, every last digit of the curse is removed in the good, bad and ugly!

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...in a way that "the bad" have the possibility to torment their earthly victims again, according to you.

FineLinen said:

He can be trusted to do all things well and in precise detail.

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I never claimed otherwise.

FineLinen said:

1. Jesus “was the true light which gives light to every man who comes into the world.” (John 1:9)

2. “Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all mankind, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all mankind.” (Rom. 5:18)

3. Jesus is “able even to subdue all things to Himself.” (Phil. 3:21)

Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.” (Eph. 1:10, 11)

“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

“God was Christ reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: be reconciled to God.” (2 Cor. 5:19, 20)

“ALL the nations shall be blessed.” (Gal 3:8)

“The Bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the world.” (John 6:33)

Jesus commanded us to be like Himself and His Father: “Love your enemies, bless those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.” (Matt. 5:44, 45)

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag in the Greek, helkuo) all mankind unto Myself.” (John 12:32)

“Creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” (Rom. 8:20, 21)

“The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hands.” (John 3:35)

“Since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:22)

Jesus “is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.” (Col. 1:15, 16)

“ALL shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Heb. 8:11)

“The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” (Titus 2:11)

We are not to “repay evil for evil.” (Rom. 12:17)

“If anyone’s work which he has built endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:14, 15)

“Of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen” (Rom. 11:36)

“ALL Israel will be saved.” (Rom. 11:26)

“Christ’s love compels us because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.” (2 Cor. 5:14)

“The head of EVERY man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Cor. 11:3)

“ALL nations shall come and worship You, for your judgments have been made manifested.” (Rev. 15:4)

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None of these verses proves Universal Reconciliation. I'll do it that way: I show you that the firste three verses don't show anything, so that everyone can suggest the rest does not prove your point either.
1. Light does not mean Universal Reconciliation.
2. I replied to that one already. It's post #13 and there already I had to repeat myself... (the "was" is added).
3. he is able, but I think he won't endanger the holy ones. Those, according to you, would have to potentially endure the evil deeds of their earthly perpetrators again, this time for all eternities, I'm afraid.

Nova2216 said:

You say - " Anyone who continues to live in union with him will not sin"

Would you agree that a christian can so sin to be lost?

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Nova: I most surely do not grasp such nonsense!

1 Corinthians 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

Love’s Goal

All that love is, God is, for God is love. As the negative side of love is unselfish - seeks not her own - so her positive side is concern for others, a deep, ardent, all consuming concern: dauntless, self-sacrificing, invincible.

“Love never fails.”

Such is the divine essence and this it is that is imparted to the creature.

There can be no self-complacency with God, neither could He provide a self-satisfied salvation. Divine joy is in the fullness of love, and love is all-embracing.

To speak of a happy shepherd with an incomplete flock, or even of a happy flock with comrades missing, would be to malign both sheep and shepherd.

Heaven’s joys will be full only when sin’s sorrow cease. “Tis of mine” will be the yearning cry of the Good Shepherd Spirit in the bosom of both saint and Saviour until the last of all the lost has been gathered home.

Love cannot omit; His soul travail was for all.

Neither can love abandon or forget.

His purpose, as His promise, is “until He find it”.

Thus it is that He is yet to “see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied.”

And surely we too shall be satisfied when conformed to this likeness.

Oh, the fullness of heaven’s joy when sin’s sorrows shall have ceased! -Love’s Goal

All that love is, God is, for God is love. As the negative side of love is unselfish - seeketh not her own - so her positive side is concern for others, a deep, ardent, all consuming concern: dauntless, self-sacrificing, invincible. “Love never fails.” Such is the divine essence and this it is what is imparted to the creature.

There can be no self-complacency with God, neither could He provide a self-satisfied salvation. Divine joy is in the fullness of love, and love is all-embracing. To speak of a happy shepherd with an incomplete flock, or even of a happy flock with comrades missing, would be to malign both sheep and shepherd.

Heaven’s joys will be full only when sin’s sorrow cease.

“Tis of mine” will be the yearning cry of the Good Shepherd spirit in the bosom of both saint and Saviour until the last of all the lost has been gathered home. Love cannot omit; His soul travail was for all. Neither can love abandon or forget.

His purpose, as His promise, is “until He find it”.

Thus it is that He is yet to “see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied.” And surely we too shall be satisfied when conformed to this likeness.

Oh, the fullness of heaven’s joy when sin’s sorrows shall have ceased! -D. Buchanan-

Father seeks till He finds = Abba's Lost & Found

thomas t said:

universalists. Proponents of Universal Reconciliation. Those who teach that everyone will be saved.

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Thomas: The purpose of our Father is not to simply save, it is to bring back what is lost by way of at-one-ment. That mighty reconciliation is to transform those "made sinners" in Adam1 to being "made righteous" in the prevailing Lord of the Universe, the Last Adam.

Never fear, the Realm of our God in endless ages reaches as far as the curse is found!

thomas t said:

None of these verses proves Universal Reconciliation.

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Thomas: Your parents named you well. Perhaps when you place your fingers into the Master of Reconciliation(s) wounds you will gasp "My Lord and my God."

One cannot be talked into what requires an encounter with the living Christ. There is only one way "to prove" what is outside of our experience, it is better felt than telt!

Jesus “was the true light which gives light to every man who comes into the world.” (John 1:9)

“Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all mankind, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all mankind.” (Rom. 5:18)

Jesus is “able even to subdue all things to Himself.” (Phil. 3:21)

Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.” (Eph. 1:10, 11)

“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

“God was Christ reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: be reconciled to God.” (2 Cor. 5:19, 20)

“ALL the nations shall be blessed.” (Gal 3:8)

“The Bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the world.” (John 6:33)

Jesus commanded us to be like Himself and His Father: “Love your enemies, bless those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.” (Matt. 5:44, 45)

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag in the Greek, helkuo) all mankind unto Myself.” (John 12:32)

“Creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” (Rom. 8:20, 21)

“The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hands.” (John 3:35)

“Since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:22)

Jesus “is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.” (Col. 1:15, 16)

“ALL shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Heb. 8:11)

“The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” (Titus 2:11)

We are not to “repay evil for evil.” (Rom. 12:17)

“If anyone’s work which he has built endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:14, 15)

“Of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen” (Rom. 11:36)

“ALL Israel will be saved.” (Rom. 11:26)

“Christ’s love compels us because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.” (2 Cor. 5:14)

“The head of EVERY man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Cor. 11:3)

“ALL nations shall come and worship You, for your judgments have been made manifested.” (Rev. 15:4)

FineLinen said:

Thomas: The purpose of our Father is not to simply save, it is to bring back what is lost by way of at-one-ment.

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it's like God inviting many people to his party. However, many won't accept the invitation. See for instance: Matthew 22:3-8.
Here we see that God is not forcing his invitation on anyone.

FineLinen said:

Never fear

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as I said, you want polluters and people who endanger others in heaven. So you want to inflict fear on heaven dwellers, it seems to me.
People can get dangerous, and nowhere does it say that after death the danger that some people represent, will be over.

FineLinen said:

Jesus “was the true light which gives light to every man who comes into the world.” (John 1:9)

“Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all mankind, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all mankind.” (Rom. 5:18)

Jesus is “able even to subdue all things to Himself.” (Phil. 3:21)

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these are the same exact verses you showed last time.
The verses are good, but they don't prove Universal Reconciliation.
As I told you in #22. How often do I have to repeat myself?
So I think, since the first three verses out of your list can't prove your point, it makes sense to assume that the rest can't either.
Maybe we can stop going round in circles here?

FineLinen said:

Thomas: Your parents named you well.

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thank you, it means "twin".

FineLinen said:

you will gasp "My Lord and my God."

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I already did so. But since this is getting personal, could you please return to the subject?

thomas t said:

it's like God inviting many people to his party. However, many won't accept the invitation. See for instance: Matthew 22:3-8.
Here we see that God is not forcing his invitation on anyone.

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Thomas: our Father's party is designed by Himself for His pleasure and satisfaction. The attendees will find themselves caught into a Party that enhances them as they focus on the Source/Host of the party.

The Master declares He will draw/ draw off in power ALL mankind unto Himself. Yes, and in that koine thelo is "drag".

Our Father's purpose in Himself prevails: always!

“When God’s judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.” (Isaiah 26:9)

“Mercy shall triumph over (exalt over) judgment.” (James 2:13)

“Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.” (Rom. 5:20)

“Every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Rev. 5:13)

If we really knew the Lord, we “would not have condemned the guiltless.” (Matt. 12:7)

“God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory. Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” (Col. 1: 27, 28)

“ALL nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him” (Psalm 86:9)

God’s “mercy endures forever.” (1 Chron. 16:34)

God’s Spirit “will be poured out on all flesh.” (Joel 2:28)

God beckons us: “Come, and let us return to the Lord, for He has torn, but He will heal us. He has stricken, but He will bind us. After 2 days, He will revive us. On the third day He will raise us up that we may live in His sight.” (Hosea 6:1, 2)

“The Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.” (Isaiah 52:10)

“The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” (Isaiah 40:5)

God will “open His hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing.” (Psalm 145:16)

God is “gracious in ALL His works.” (Psalm 145:17)

thomas t said:

As I said, you want polluters and people who endanger others in heaven. So you want to inflict fear on heaven dwellers, it seems to me.

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Thomas: rest assured that nothing enters into His Presence unchanged. There shall be no more curse upon anything."

Reconciliation is not a happy go lucky outcome, it is a return to what was lost when mankind attempted to be outside of Him & His will.

To reconcile = katallasso =

To change from enmity to friendship.

The focus of katallasso being what God accomplishes.

FineLinen said:

The Master declares He will draw/ draw off in power ALL mankind unto Himself. Yes, and in that koine thelo is "drag".

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yeah, that's Bible.
However, that does not mean everyone is saved. Even when it comes to God's calling, it says many are called and few are chosen, according to Matthew 22:14

FineLinen said:

Our Father's purpose in Himself prevails: always!

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as I said, there also needs to be some sort of safety for those who were wronged on earth already.

FineLinen said:

Thomas: rest assured that nothing enters into His Presence unchanged.

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that's your assumption. I don't share it. Remember Cain, he constantly enjoyed God's presence. Yet he killed his brother. See my post #13.

FineLinen said:

Reconciliation is not a happy go lucky outcome, it is a return to what was lost when mankind attempted to be outside of Him & His will.

To reconcile = katallasso =

To change from enmity to friendship.

The focus of katallasso being what God accomplishes.

Click to expand...

After everything is reconciled according to the Bible... people might sin again or attempt to be outside His will, as you put it, doing harm to everyone.

Edited for clarity

FineLinen said:

“When God’s judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.” (Isaiah 26:9)

“Mercy shall triumph over (exalt over) judgment.” (James 2:13)

“Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.” (Rom. 5:20)

“Every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Rev. 5:13)

If we really knew the Lord, we “would not have condemned the guiltless.” (Matt. 12:7)

“God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory. Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” (Col. 1: 27, 28)

“ALL nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him” (Psalm 86:9)

God’s “mercy endures forever.” (1 Chron. 16:34)

God’s Spirit “will be poured out on all flesh.” (Joel 2:28)

God beckons us: “Come, and let us return to the Lord, for He has torn, but He will heal us. He has stricken, but He will bind us. After 2 days, He will revive us. On the third day He will raise us up that we may live in His sight.” (Hosea 6:1, 2)

“The Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.” (Isaiah 52:10)

“The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” (Isaiah 40:5)

God will “open His hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing.” (Psalm 145:16)

God is “gracious in ALL His works.” (Psalm 145:17)

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you managed to cite Bible verses about the Lord.
None of them proves your point which is "the Larger Hope" = meaning the teaching that everyone will be saved (Universalism).

thomas t said:

yeah, that's Bible.
However, that does not mean everyone is saved. Even when it comes to God's calling, it says many are called and few are chosen, according to Matthew 22:14

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Thomas: It is indeed Bible. Our God's purpose is to draw the radical all of mankind to Himself. I believe He will accomplish His intention fully.

God is not a potential Saviour: He IS Saviour. He IS Saviour of all mankind with that lovely word malista expressing salvation to the "especially" of His expansive love & grace.

"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially those who believe/trust in Him."

Everything New

I saw Heaven and earth new-created. Gone the first Heaven, gone the first earth, gone the sea. I saw Holy Jerusalem, new-created, descending resplendent out of Heaven, as ready for God as a bride for her husband. I heard a voice thunder from the Throne: “Look! Look! God has moved into the neighborhood, making his home with men and women! They’re his people, he’s their God. He’ll wipe every tear from their eyes. Death is gone for good—tears gone, crying gone, pain gone—all the first order of things gone.” The Enthroned continued, “Look! I’m making everything new. Write it all down—each word dependable and accurate.” Then he said, “It’s happened. I’m A to Z. I’m the Beginning, I’m the Conclusion. From Water-of-Life Well I give freely to the thirsty. Conquerors inherit all this. I’ll be God to them, they’ll be sons and daughters to me. But for the rest—the feckless and faithless, degenerates and murderers, sex peddlers and sorcerers, idolaters and all liars—for them it’s Lake Fire and Brimstone. Second death!” -MSG

thomas t said:

you managed to cite Bible verses about the Lord.
None of them proves your point which is "the Larger Hope" = meaning the teaching that everyone will be saved (Universalism).

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Thomas: The passages of Scripture pointing to the Restitution of the ta panta are quite dramatic. At the present moment there are a few dozen presented on this link with more on the horizon.

I repeat: everyone will not only be saved, every last son of Adam1 shall "be made righteous."

Jesus “was the true light which gives light to every man who comes into the world.” (John 1:9)

“Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all mankind, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all mankind.” (Rom. 5:18)

Jesus is “able even to subdue all things to Himself.” (Phil. 3:21)

Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.” (Eph. 1:10, 11)

“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

“God was Christ reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: be reconciled to God.” (2 Cor. 5:19, 20)

“ALL the nations shall be blessed.” (Gal 3:8)

“The Bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the world.” (John 6:33)

Jesus commanded us to be like Himself and His Father: “Love your enemies, bless those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.” (Matt. 5:44, 45)

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag in the Greek, helkuo) all mankind unto Myself.” (John 12:32)

“Creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” (Rom. 8:20, 21)

“The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hands.” (John 3:35)

“Since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:22)

Jesus “is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.” (Col. 1:15, 16)

“ALL shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Heb. 8:11)

“The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” (Titus 2:11)

We are not to “repay evil for evil.” (Rom. 12:17)

“If anyone’s work which he has built endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:14, 15)

“Of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen” (Rom. 11:36)

“ALL Israel will be saved.” (Rom. 11:26)

“Christ’s love compels us because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.” (2 Cor. 5:14)

“The head of EVERY man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Cor. 11:3)

“ALL nations shall come and worship You, for your judgments have been made manifested.” (Rev. 15:4)

“When God’s judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.” (Isaiah 26:9)

“Mercy shall triumph over (exalt over) judgment.” (James 2:13)

“Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.” (Rom. 5:20)

“Every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Rev. 5:13)

If we really knew the Lord, we “would not have condemned the guiltless.” (Matt. 12:7)

“God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory. Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” (Col. 1: 27, 28)

“ALL nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him” (Psalm 86:9)

God’s “mercy endures forever.” (1 Chron. 16:34)

God’s Spirit “will be poured out on all flesh.” (Joel 2:28)

God beckons us: “Come, and let us return to the Lord, for He has torn, but He will heal us. He has stricken, but He will bind us. After 2 days, He will revive us. On the third day He will raise us up that we may live in His sight.” (Hosea 6:1, 2)

“The Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.” (Isaiah 52:10)

“The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” (Isaiah 40:5)

God will “open His hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing.” (Psalm 145:16)

“ALL Israel will be saved.” (Rom. 11:26)

“Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for ALL, and therefore all died.” (2 Cor. 5:14)

“The head of EVERY man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Cor. 11:3)

“ALL nations shall come and worship You, for your judgments have been made manifested.” (Rev. 15:4)

“When God’s judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the WORLD will learn righteousness.” (Isaiah 26:9)

“Mercy shall triumph over (exalt over) judgment.” (James 2:13)

“Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.” (Rom. 5:20)

“EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Rev. 5:13)

If we REALLY knew the Lord, we “would not have condemned the guiltless.” (Matt. 12:7)

“God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory. Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” (Col. 1: 27, 28)

“ALL nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him” (Psalm 86:9)

God’s “mercy endures forever.” (1 Chron. 16:34)

God’s Spirit “will be poured out on ALL FLESH.” (Joel 2:28)

God beckons us: “Come, and let us return to the Lord, for He has torn, but He will heal us. He has stricken, but He will bind us. After 2 days, He will revive us. On the third day He will raise us up that we may live in His sight.” (Hosea 6:1, 2)

“The Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and ALL the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.” (Isaiah 52:10)

“The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” (Isaiah 40:5)

God will “open His hand and satisfy the desire of EVERY living thing.” (Psalm 145:16)

God is “gracious in ALL His works.” (Psalm 145:17)

“The EARTH is the Lord’s and ALL its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein.” (Psalm 24:1)

“ALL the kings of the earth shall praise you, 0h Lord, when they hear the words of your mouth.” (Psalm 138:4)

God “reveals Himself to those who did not ask for Him: He was found by those who did not seek Him.” (Isaiah 65:1)

Please welcome Jurgen Moltmann

The universalism of Jurgen Moltmann

The Perennial “Heresy” -Dr. Robin Perry-

One striking aspect that stands out from our explorations is the way in which universalism seems to be spontaneously rediscovered over and over again. Of course there are universalist genealogies, and it is not hard to find people who were converted to universalism directly through the preaching or the writing of another. Think, for instance, of the key role of Paul Siegvolk’s book in Elhanan Winchester’s conversion, or of James Relly’s writing and preaching in John Murray’s.

Nevertheless, it is fascinating how many people seem to move into a belief in universal salvation seemingly without the influence of other Christians encouraging them to. One thinks, for instance, of Hans Denck (if he was a universalist), Gerrard Winstanley, Jeremiah White, Jane Lead, George de Benneville, George Stonehouse, James Relly, Charles Chauncy, Caleb Rich, Friedrich Schleiermacher, Johann Christoph Blumhardt, Thomas Erskine, George MacDonald, Andrew Jukes, and Hannah W. Smith.

I am not suggesting that their diverse journeys into a belief in the final redemption of all were not influenced, indeed deeply influenced, by other Christians or by inherited Christian theological ideas. Of course they were—every one of them. My point, rather, is that each of these characters found their own way toward belief in universal salvation without the direct influence of other universalists. Their journeys were indeed pushed in such radical directions by other people and existing ideas, but those influential people and ideas were not themselves universalist. Rather, it was our lone travelers who took the baton and then ran with it into new and unanticipated territory. Subsequently, as we saw with Hannah Whitall Smith, the theology of other universalists can serve to refine and confirm that initial “insight,” but the insight itself was not taught them by another.

What is fascinating is that this deviancy, running off course with the baton, keeps on happening. Perhaps we might even dare to speak of universal salvation as the perennial “heresy,” echoing the way that some have spoken of Platonism as the perennial philosophy. (Of course, I use the term “heresy” with my tongue in my cheek, for I do not believe that universalism is a formal heresy; rather, it occupies a space between heresy and dogma.) It is a theological idea that refuses to go away and keeps on raising its ugly/beautiful (delete as appropriate) head over and over again, throughout the centuries. One may wonder why this is so. It is almost as if the baton itself had some “pull” of its own, drawing runners off the prescribed course. Might it be that the chief impulses behind the deviancy, in its many Christian versions, are integrally related to deep Christian convictions—about God’s love and goodness and justice, about the dignity of humans in God’s image, about the victory of Christ over sin and death, and so on. It seems to be those very convictions that raise doubts about hell as eternal torment and push in the direction of a larger hope. In other words, perhaps the seeds of this hope lie in the gospel itself. If that is the case, then as long as Christians continue to believe in such things, there will remain an inherent temptation to follow them toward conclusions that push beyond the mainstream tradition, off the prescribed course, in the pursuit of a wider hope.

FineLinen said:

Thomas: It is indeed Bible.

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that still does not mean that everyone is saved.
Jesus is the savior of everyone... yeah 1 Tim 4:10.
But that doesn't mean everyone is saved.
Look, this passage only describes the person.
When I say "I am the sandwich maker for everyone in the street" - this does not mean that everyone in the street will in fact eat my sandwiches.

FineLinen said:

Please welcome Jurgen Moltmann

The universalism of Jurgen Moltmann

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... Jürgen Moltmann is not Bible. This can't count as proof.

FineLinen said:

“ALL Israel will be saved.” (Rom. 11:26)

“Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for ALL, and therefore all died.” (2 Cor. 5:14)

“The head of EVERY man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Cor. 11:3)

“ALL nations shall come and worship You, for your judgments have been made manifested.” (Rev. 15:4)

“When God’s judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the WORLD will learn righteousness.” (Isaiah 26:9)

“Mercy shall triumph over (exalt over) judgment.” (James 2:13)

“Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.” (Rom. 5:20)

“EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Rev. 5:13)

If we REALLY knew the Lord, we “would not have condemned the guiltless.” (Matt. 12:7)

“God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory. Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” (Col. 1: 27, 28)

“ALL nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him” (Psalm 86:9)

God’s “mercy endures forever.” (1 Chron. 16:34)

God’s Spirit “will be poured out on ALL FLESH.” (Joel 2:28)

God beckons us: “Come, and let us return to the Lord, for He has torn, but He will heal us. He has stricken, but He will bind us. After 2 days, He will revive us. On the third day He will raise us up that we may live in His sight.” (Hosea 6:1, 2)

“The Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and ALL the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.” (Isaiah 52:10)

“The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” (Isaiah 40:5)

God will “open His hand and satisfy the desire of EVERY living thing.” (Psalm 145:16)

God is “gracious in ALL His works.” (Psalm 145:17)

“The EARTH is the Lord’s and ALL its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein.” (Psalm 24:1)

“ALL the kings of the earth shall praise you, 0h Lord, when they hear the words of your mouth.” (Psalm 138:4)

God “reveals Himself to those who did not ask for Him: He was found by those who did not seek Him.” (Isaiah 65:1)

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you managed to find Bible verses about God.
I can only reiterate what I've said earlier (#31)... None of them proves your point which is "the Larger Hope" = meaning the teaching that everyone will be saved (Universalism).

FineLinen said:

Jesus “was the true light which gives light to every man who comes into the world.” (John 1:9)

“Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all mankind, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all mankind.” (Rom. 5:18)

Jesus is “able even to subdue all things to Himself.” (Phil. 3:21)

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you are reiterating yourself again and again. Can we please get off this merry goround?
I told you already in #26... that I told you in #22 ... these verses don't prove Universal Reconciliation.
You also reiterated yourself in post #33, which doesn't turn the things you say into truth.

Even when everything is new... this doesn't mean that everyone is saved!
Two different things.

thomas t said:

that still does not mean that everyone is saved.
Jesus is the savior of everyone... yeah 1 Tim 4:10.
But that doesn't mean everyone is saved.
Look, this passage only describes the person.
When I say "I am the sandwich maker for everyone in the street" - this does not mean that everyone in the street will in fact eat my sandwiches.

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Thomas: I repeat, God is not a potential Saviour, He IS Saviour. He does not make sandwiches, He makes new creatures that are changed from the inside out. They are not accounted righteous only, but are made the righteousness of God in Him.

Not saved only: reconciled.

Thomas: The salvation of the Lord is not a potential salvation. He saves, He rescues the good, bad & ugly from sin. He IS the Saviour of all mankind, the all, the ta panta. He never fails, ever!