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do you believe god provided pre-dometicated organisms, transhumanism

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
In the NIV bible for example, one notices that god is credited with the creation of 'livestock.' God provides the plant matter we eat. There are instances of dogs and horses in the bible. At present and in the past, all of these are standout organisms because they seem to serve us more than others..

But god did not create corn, or pug dogs, or obedient hunting dogs, or tame the cattle and horses for us, argues general history. Nor are these organisms really to be considered as 'subdued' organisms that god originally created, for they would no longer be originals, if domestication is not a myth. For it is not merely subduing an organism, to go from a strand of grass to a stalk of corn, or from a wolf to basset hound. This is instead the transformation of original work. Did god say to transform his work to subdue it then?

If we were the domesticators, and god was not, then I can't see a biblical argument against transhumanism, as the way toward that end is well paved. Where one can claim that domestication is not a sin, then neither is changing, or 'subduing,' the body for human benefit. This works well with dualism preached by Paul, and spartan attitude toward the body as expressed by Jesus.

For where Jesus said to modify the body if causes you to sin, then humans are free to enhance the body. If you had plant genes, and could get carbon by opening your mouth to the sun, and this would combine with water in your body, then you would never starve, and never feel the need to steal to sate your belly. This also works well with Paul, whose version of the religion held that soul was indestructible, but the flawed body needed taming
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
In the NIV bible for example, one notices that god is credited with the creation of 'livestock.' God provides the plant matter we eat. There are instances of dogs and horses in the bible. At present and in the past, all of these are standout organisms because they seem to serve us more than others..

But god did not create corn, or pug dogs, or obedient hunting dogs, or tame the cattle and horses for us, argues general history. Nor are these organisms really to be considered as 'subdued' organisms that god originally created, for they would no longer be originals, if domestication is not a myth. For it is not merely subduing an organism, to go from a strand of grass to a stalk of corn, or from a wolf to basset hound. This is instead the transformation of original work. Did god say to transform his work to subdue it then?

If we were the domesticators, and god was not, then I can't see a biblical argument against transhumanism, as the way toward that end is well paved. Where one can claim that domestication is not a sin, then neither is changing, or 'subduing,' the body for human benefit. This works well with dualism preached by Paul, and spartan attitude toward the body as expressed by Jesus.

For where Jesus said to modify the body if causes you to sin, then humans are free to enhance the body. If you had plant genes, and could get carbon by opening your mouth to the sun, and this would combine with water in your body, then you would never starve, and never feel the need to steal to sate your belly. This also works well with Paul, whose version of the religion held that soul was indestructible, but the flawed body needed taming
What is transhumanism, please? I don't know this term.

But, as to the general argument, of course there is no reason for Man not to enhance nature, so long as he is careful not to cause unintended deleterious consequences. Unfortunately, as we are all ware, there very often are such consequences, so we need to proceed with great circumspection.

This is not in the bible but is just common sense and experience.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...
If we were the domesticators, and god was not, then I can't see a biblical argument against transhumanism, ...

For every kind of animal, bird, creeping thing, and thing in the sea, is tamed, and has been tamed by mankind.
James 3:7

I think taming or domesticating is not same as transforming animal to something else. Therefore, I think it is not good argument for trans-humanism.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
For every kind of animal, bird, creeping thing, and thing in the sea, is tamed, and has been tamed by mankind.
James 3:7

I think taming or domesticating is not same as transforming animal to something else. Therefore, I think it is not good argument for trans-humanism.
What about breeding? Human beings have done that for millennia. Just look at breeds of horses, dogs, or innumerable plants, some varieties totally different from what went before.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
the work of "creation" would be the ongoing process of transformation, which we can see all around us, locked in cycles of progressive change into new permutations [the experience from inside such processes being, of course, relativistic].
which was the whole focus of alchemy before which evolved into the sciences of today...."panta rhei", so, only process would be "real" in that context.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
What is transhumanism, please? I don't know this term.

The way I'd define it, is to upgrade the body using things like computers and gene alteration. Like elon musk and his neurolink idea, or giving gmo crops the genes to fight insects. Maybe musk's chip would solve dementia, or expand memory. Maybe a gene might allow you to photosynthesize. Are these things sins ?
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I think taming or domesticating is not same as transforming animal to something else. Therefore, I think it is not good argument for trans-humanism.

Oh really? You know that a pug came out of a wolf, and a corn plant came out of a grass type plant. And some bibles keep the word as subdue, as apparently the greek words seem to mean either subdue or tame. Unless you have a particular faith in the kjv, then it could still mean subdue I would think
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
The way I'd define it, is to upgrade the body using things like computers and gene alteration. Like elon musk and his neurolink idea, or giving gmo crops the genes to fight insects. Maybe musk's chip would solve dementia, or expand memory. Maybe a gene might allow you to photosynthesize. Are these things sins ?
Thanks. But I'm still puzzled now, for another reason. Why would a person think they might be sins?
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Thanks. But I'm still puzzled now, for another reason. Why would a person think they might be sins?

Maybe it's an american-christian thing. I think that when they think about the 'mark of the beast,' that is what inspires them against bodily alteration.

On a parallel note, I thought I had read that even getting a tattoo is not kosher, though that only applies to Jews of course, if that is correct.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Maybe it's an american-christian thing. I think that when they think about the 'mark of the beast,' that is what inspires them against bodily alteration.

On a parallel note, I thought I had read that even getting a tattoo is not kosher, though that only applies to Jews of course, if that is correct.
Anyone who tries to find practical guidance for the modern world from Revelation, of all the books in the bible, needs his head examined. :rolleyes:
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
In the NIV bible for example, one notices that god is credited with the creation of 'livestock.' God provides the plant matter we eat. There are instances of dogs and horses in the bible. At present and in the past, all of these are standout organisms because they seem to serve us more than others..

But god did not create corn, or pug dogs, or obedient hunting dogs, or tame the cattle and horses for us, argues general history. Nor are these organisms really to be considered as 'subdued' organisms that god originally created, for they would no longer be originals, if domestication is not a myth. For it is not merely subduing an organism, to go from a strand of grass to a stalk of corn, or from a wolf to basset hound. This is instead the transformation of original work. Did god say to transform his work to subdue it then?

If we were the domesticators, and god was not, then I can't see a biblical argument against transhumanism, as the way toward that end is well paved. Where one can claim that domestication is not a sin, then neither is changing, or 'subduing,' the body for human benefit. This works well with dualism preached by Paul, and spartan attitude toward the body as expressed by Jesus.

For where Jesus said to modify the body if causes you to sin, then humans are free to enhance the body. If you had plant genes, and could get carbon by opening your mouth to the sun, and this would combine with water in your body, then you would never starve, and never feel the need to steal to sate your belly. This also works well with Paul, whose version of the religion held that soul was indestructible, but the flawed body needed taming

A trans-humanist trying to change the meaning of the bible around to justify transhumanism, now that's a first!!!
 

1213

Well-Known Member
What about breeding? Human beings have done that for millennia. Just look at breeds of horses, dogs, or innumerable plants, some varieties totally different from what went before.

They are just variation within the species. I don’t think it is really transforming animal to something else so that it could be compared to trans-humanism.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
They are just variation within the species. I don’t think it is really transforming animal to something else so that it could be compared to trans-humanism.
Well some of these changes are pretty big. But do you see transhumanism as posing some kind of problem that these breeding activities do not? Why would that be?
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I really don’t have any intelligent reason to believe that.

But you do believe that domestication is real, correct? Breeding was a domestication strategy, and it seemed to alter the animal body.

A somewhat parallel process happens with gmo humans, and humans with tech advancements. In the words of Jesus, the body 'causes you to sin,' and to fix this, man might modify it. Enhance the body and mind, and you may clear up the weaknesses of the body, and control it from sin
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
But you do believe that domestication is real, correct? Breeding was a domestication strategy, and it seemed to alter the animal body.

A somewhat parallel process happens with gmo humans, and humans with tech advancements. In the words of Jesus, the body 'causes you to sin,' and to fix this, man might modify it. Enhance the body and mind, and you may clear up the weaknesses of the body, and control it from sin
Hang on a minute. Where are you going with this now? Modifying the human body to improve its function has little or nothing to do with tendency to sinfulness. This is mixing categories, surely? Has anyone proposed a modification to humanity to stop it sinning? How could that possibly work and who would define sin anyway?
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Has anyone proposed a modification to humanity to stop it sinning?

Jesus himself, he said to alter the parts of the body that create sin

Modifying the human body to improve its function has little or nothing to do with tendency to sinfulness.

The depends on where you think sin comes from. If the future human body is produced to have dazzling abilities, then perhaps this may limit all of his traditional wants or proclivities? Most sins are hinged on man wanting to gain something. If he can modify himself to greater heights, there would be far less to gain

For example, if you could expand the life span to rival that of Adam and the other patriarchs, that might limit sin somewhat. Adam probably didn't sin all that much, because his ability to live for many hundreds of years allowed him to relax a bit. How many people sin because the general life - span is squeezing down on them, and making them act irrationally?
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
Jesus himself, he said to alter the parts of the body that create sin



The depends on where you think sin comes from. If the future human body is produced to have dazzling abilities, then perhaps this may limit all of his traditional wants or proclivities? Most sins are hinged on man wanting to gain something. If he can modify himself to greater heights, there would be far less to gain

For example, if you could expand the life span to rival that of Adam and the other patriarchs, that might limit sin somewhat. Adam probably didn't sin all that much, because his ability to live for many hundreds of years allowed him to relax a bit. How many people sin because the general life - span is squeezing down on them, and making them act irrationally?
None. Does a mugger steal your phone because of existential angst? Does a man make cruel remarks to his wife because he is worried about the imminence of death? Come off it.

This is all unfounded speculation. There is no reason whatever to think you can make people more moral by modifying their bodies.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Selective breeding to shape one species into different forms is just how evolution works, just speeded up by Man.

No god involved.
 
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