... and if you're wrong?

PureX · Oct 1, 2020

Eyes to See said:
I agree that people of little or no faith have to have an idol to represent what they worship.

That was the point of the question, to help the person to reason the thing out logically. Idols are not made because of "too much belief." It is because of a lack of faith.

Maybe. Probably. I think it's difficult for people to face that profound unknowing that is the human condition. We humans survive and thrive by understanding how our physical environment functions, so that we can manipulate it to our own advantage. So we get really nervous and uncomfortable when we are confronted by the unknown. It means we have no 'control', there. And that makes us vulnerable. "God" is the most profound unknown of all. God is the great mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is. Including ourselves. Its difficult to just stand there, "naked in our unknowing", before the great mystery source of all that is.

dybmh · Oct 1, 2020

Eyes to See said:
Now the son is in trouble, and the father says, don't worry son, I'll take care of it. Is it really a show of "too much" belief for that child to be skeptical of his father? And instead look to others who were devious, didn't keep their word, were liars, criminals, and took advantage of others?

In order for it to be a fair comparrison, switch it to husband and wife, and the wife is deathly ill and the others do not appear devious.

dybmh · Oct 1, 2020

Estro Felino said:
Well...I am a Pelagian...a believer in a Christianity that saves all good people, regardless of their religion
So...

That's beautiful. But it's not what I read about in the Gospels.

Estro Felino · Oct 1, 2020

dybmh said:
Well, the Gospels are an example of what a Jewish person shouldn't do. The best examples are when they encourage a person to violate the 10 commandments. In John chapter 2 (and elsewhere) the reader is told to worship Father and Son. This violates the commandment prohibiting worship of Other Gods. Also in Mark chapter 3, the reader is encouraged to dishonor their birth parents. This is a violation of the commandment to honor them. After having read all four Gospels, and it is clear to me that if the story is true, it describes a plot to lead people astray.

But...regardless of the polytheism that the Gospels supposedly convey...do you think Jesus' teachings are positive or a negative?
I mean his parables.
In the perspective of your own religion and your own faith, of course.

Eyes to See · Oct 1, 2020

dybmh said:
In order for it to be a fair comparrison, switch it to husband and wife, and the wife is deathly ill and the others do not appear devious.

Fair!

Jehovah God did consider the nation of Israel as his wife.

"You have the brazen look of a wife who commits prostitution;
You refuse to feel shame."
-Jeremiah 3:3.

“You have committed prostitution with many companions,
And should you now return to me?” declares Jehovah."
-Jeremiah 3:1.

"Jehovah said to me: “‘Have you seen what unfaithful Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and underneath every luxuriant tree to commit prostitution. Even after she did all these things, I kept telling her to return to me, but she did not return; and Judah kept watching her treacherous sister. When I saw that, I sent unfaithful Israel away with a full certificate of divorce because of her adultery. But her treacherous sister Judah did not become afraid; she too went out and committed prostitution.  She took her prostitution lightly, and she kept polluting the land and committing adultery with stones and with trees.  Despite all this, her treacherous sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, only in pretense,’ declares Jehovah.”
Jeremiah 3:6-10.

So really, Israel's idolatry was spiritual prostitution. Jehovah was a faithful and loyal and loving husband. Israel was the unfaithful, evil, and wicked wife prostituting herself to everyone.

Estro Felino · Oct 1, 2020

dybmh said:
That's beautiful. But it's not what I read about in the Gospels.

The parable of the Good Samaritan says that the faithful pious men were wicked since they did not rescue the wounded man. The Samaritan did.

dybmh · Oct 1, 2020

Estro Felino said:
But...regardless of the polytheism that the Gospels supposedly convey...do you think Jesus' teachings are positive or a negative?
I mean his parables.
In the perspective of your own religion and your own faith, of course.

I think it's a slippery slope.

dybmh · Oct 1, 2020

Eyes to See said:
So really, Israel's idolatry was spiritual prostitution. Jehovah was a faithful and loyal and loving husband. Israel was the unfaithful, evil, and wicked wife prostituting herself to everyone.

Which is a different problem than lack of faith. Arguably it could be due to too much faith in the absolution of their sins.

Estro Felino · Oct 1, 2020

dybmh said:
I think it's a slippery slope.

But it is on topic. The thread topic.
As I was telling @Tumah ...it is Jesus' parables that convinced the People to believe He was God.

Eyes to See · Oct 1, 2020

dybmh said:
Which is a different problem than lack of faith. Arguably it could be due to too much faith in the absolution of their sins.

I'm really just gonna let Jehovah tell you:

When Jehovah heard them, he became furious;
A fire blazed against Jacob,
And his anger flared up against Israel
Because they did not put faith in God;
They did not trust in his ability to save them.
-Psam 78:21, 22.

1213 · Oct 1, 2020

Tumah said:
What if the small handful of men on whose backs rest the entirety of Christianity were actually liars?...

... And while the Jewish people point to an entire generation of ancestors who received this code of Law via Divine revelation, the Christian must rely on a handful of individuals who are said to have witnessed some miracles which convinced them that this original law had been uprooted....

Where do you get that idea that “…original law had been uprooted...”?

But, the question about liars, I think it depends on what would be the lie and would it be a problem. Basically, the message in the Bible is, love your neighbor as yourself. If that is a lie and we should not do so, then I would have done good to others all my life without “good reason”. I wouldn’t think it as great loss, would you?

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

dybmh · Oct 1, 2020

Eyes to See said:
I'm really just gonna let Jehovah tell you:

When Jehovah heard them, he became furious;
A fire blazed against Jacob,
And his anger flared up against Israel
Because they did not put faith in God;
They did not trust in his ability to save them.
-Psam 78:21, 22.

Fair enough.

oldbadger · Oct 2, 2020

dybmh said:
@viole and @oldbadger , you both were asking {paraphrasing} "How would a person differentiate between G-d and Satan in the story told in the Christian Gospels?"

Hi..... and 'No', I've never discussed the above.

Well, the Gospels are an example of what a Jewish person shouldn't do. The best examples are when they encourage a person to violate the 10 commandments. In John chapter 2 (and elsewhere) the reader is told to worship Father and Son.

No. Apostle John was not the Disciple John BarZebedee and didn't live in Palestine. He wrote his gospel in the 2nd century. He was a Christian.......

This violates the commandment prohibiting worship of Other Gods. Also in Mark chapter 3, the reader is encouraged to dishonor their birth parents.

Whoa!
None of this is as wayward as the greed, corruption, hypocrisy and carelessness of the Priesthood, which the Baptist and Jesus stood up against.
The Baptist called them 'Vipers' which says it all.

Kenny · Oct 2, 2020

dybmh said:
@KenS and @Eyes to See , you both were discussing a "lack of belief" as the problem inherent in Jewish people past and present.

Not sure that really summarizes what I said since they did enter into the promised land and it was the Jewish nation that started Christianity.

Muffled · Oct 2, 2020

Tumah said:
There's always going to be that guy with this type of post.

It doesn't matter whether the claim of Judaism is true or not. Christianity believes it to be true, so it needs to follow a logical progression from that.

I believe you are right. We have the same people making the same type of claims about God.

Muffled · Oct 2, 2020

viole said:
Of course I do not believe in Satan, lol.

But if I would, knowing he is so cunning in deceiving people, I would ask myself: how do I know that this sort of branching off from tradition is not his work? How do you know?

Ciao

- viole

I believe you may get to see Satan in person. It is mostly likely that the AntiChrist will be an incarnation of him. He thinks he can one up God by undoing what He did in His incarnation.

Rival · Oct 2, 2020

KenS said:
Jewish nation that started Christianity.

Jewish nation? Hardly. It was a small group.

Muffled · Oct 2, 2020

viole said:
Would you call waterboarding, followed by death, of all humanity, old people, women, small children, .... Love?

Well, I wonder how hate looks like.

Ciao

- viole

I believe sometimes love means throwing out the old junk and starting out fresh.

Kenny · Oct 2, 2020

Rival said:
Jewish nation? Hardly. It was a small group.

I don't think so... if I understand the numbers in Acts. I shouldn't have said "the nation" - but rather a substantial group of believers were from the Jewish nation.

Estro Felino · Oct 2, 2020

KenS said:
I don't think so... if I understand the numbers in Acts. I shouldn't have said "the nation" - but rather a substantial group of believers were from the Jewish nation.

Well...they were relatively a small group...considering the countless Jewish communities throughout the Roman Empire.
Attested in Rome, Sicily...Anatolia.
Most of them did not convert.

... and if you're wrong?

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