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What is Love?

exchemist

Veteran Member
I always think of religion as man trying to explain God. It's like the Model-T trying to explain Henry Ford.

The scriptures, on the other hand, are God explaining Himself to us. They do say that we are one body with Christ as the head. God makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 1:10 that He wants us all united. The fact that we have 40,000 different denominations is enough evidence that the church has fallen far from what God wants.

I think you are absolutely right in saying that if one wants to know the truth, they must go to the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures.

Take care.
No, the scriptures are the writings of holy men, trying to explain God to everybody else. That accounts for why they are often obscure, sometimes contradictory and even on occasion cruel.

Two people can go to the scriptures and come away with quite ideas about what they mean. You are a fool if you just rely on reading it for yourself. You need to listen to what other people have thought about what it means, too.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
No, the scriptures are the writings of holy men, trying to explain God to everybody else.
Yes, you are right about holy men explaining God. You just forgot one detail;

2 Pet 1:21,

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

2Tim 3:16,

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

You make it sound like these men just wrote what they thought should be written. These verses make it plain they wrote, not what they thought about God, but what God told them to write. There are about 40 holy men of God who spoke, but everyone of them was moved or inspired by God to write the things they wrote. Many writers, but only one author.

That accounts for why they are often obscure, sometimes contradictory and even on occasion cruel.

Psalms 12:6 tells us that God purified every word 7 times. You can either believe that and realize that any contradictions or cruelty you see is because of your failure to understand what God meant. Scribal mistranslations, some intentional to promote some doctrine or another, and others quite by accident, can also cause the contradictions you see.

The point is that if you believe the scriptures are perfect, you must examine your understanding if you see apparent contradictions. To me, the other option would be to just realize the scriptures are nothing more than the babbling of hermits and forget about them altogether. For sure, I wouldn't want to waste my time on something I didn't believe to be true.

Two people can go to the scriptures and come away with quite ideas about what they mean. You are a fool if you just rely on reading it for yourself. You need to listen to what other people have thought about what it means, too.
Then why aren't you listening to me?

I can't imagine how anybody could misunderstand your assertion that two people can read the scriptures and come away with anything different than you saying two people can read the scriptures and come away with different ideas. I mean it's a pretty simple, straight forward assertion. The reason two people go the the scriptures and come away with different ideas is because they don't read what's written. They interject preconceived ideas.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Yes, you are right about holy men explaining God. You just forgot one detail;

2 Pet 1:21,

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

2Tim 3:16,

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

You make it sound like these men just wrote what they thought should be written. These verses make it plain they wrote, not what they thought about God, but what God told them to write. There are about 40 holy men of God who spoke, but everyone of them was moved or inspired by God to write the things they wrote. Many writers, but only one author.



Psalms 12:6 tells us that God purified every word 7 times. You can either believe that and realize that any contradictions or cruelty you see is because of your failure to understand what God meant. Scribal mistranslations, some intentional to promote some doctrine or another, and others quite by accident, can also cause the contradictions you see.

The point is that if you believe the scriptures are perfect, you must examine your understanding if you see apparent contradictions. To me, the other option would be to just realize the scriptures are nothing more than the babbling of hermits and forget about them altogether. For sure, I wouldn't want to waste my time on something I didn't believe to be true.


Then why aren't you listening to me?

I can't imagine how anybody could misunderstand your assertion that two people can read the scriptures and come away with anything different than you saying two people can read the scriptures and come away with different ideas. I mean it's a pretty simple, straight forward assertion. The reason two people go the the scriptures and come away with different ideas is because they don't read what's written. They interject preconceived ideas.
You are no authority, of course. But I do read what you say and then judge whether it seems to me to be good sense, bearing in mind my other sources of information.

I obviously don't believe the scriptures are perfect, because there is no reason to think they are, while there are various reasons to think otherwise. For a start, who decides what material to include in scripture? It is a choice made by various groups of people and there is no agreement in Christendom as to which books are considered valid.

Your quotations do not claim scripture is perfect, just that it is inspired by God. "Inspired" is not the same as dictation, flawlessly transcribed. As for Psalm 12:6, my translation says: "Yahweh's promises are promises unalloyed, natural silver that comes from the earth seven times refined. This doesn't mention scripture at all.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
You are no authority, of course.
One need not be an authority if they are intimately related to the one who is. My father (and yours of course) is the authority and He has explained Himself in what amounts to a 6th grade reading level. I just read what's written.

I obviously don't believe the scriptures are perfect, because there is no reason to think they are, while there are various reasons to think otherwise. For a start, who decides what material to include in scripture? It is a choice made by various groups of people and there is no agreement in Christendom as to which books are considered valid.
I understand the things you say here. There are many things one may want to consider when approaching the scriptures.

I just happen to think that the fundamental, guiding, central principle is that the scriptures are in fact perfect. Everything else takes a back seat to that principle. All must agree with that principle.

Now I've been on your side of the fence before, for many years. I consider myself highly fortunate that some came along and told me some of what I'm telling you.

Your quotations do not claim scripture is perfect, just that it is inspired by God. "Inspired" is not the same as dictation, flawlessly transcribed. As for Psalm 12:6, my translation says: "Yahweh's promises are promises unalloyed, natural silver that comes from the earth seven times refined. This doesn't mention scripture at all.
The Hebrew word is: H565 אִמְרָה 'imrah. It is in fact translated "commandment" one time. However it is translated "word(s)" 29 times. I don't have to have much seminary to see that "words" are the intended meaning. Again, we are talking about 6th grade reading level. I did get past that. :)
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I always think of religion as man trying to explain God. It's like the Model-T trying to explain Henry Ford.

The scriptures, on the other hand, are God explaining Himself to us. They do say that we are one body with Christ as the head. God makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 1:10 that He wants us all united. The fact that we have 40,000 different denominations is enough evidence that the church has fallen far from what God wants.

I think you are absolutely right in saying that if one wants to know the truth, they must go to the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures.

Take care.
Yes, I agree the scriptures to explain God, but that would not be possible if man did not explain God - working our way back from Jesus and his apostles, the prophets, like Ezekiel, Isaiah, Moses
So that would mean they all had religion... including Jesus himself. (John 1:18 ; Matthew 11:27)
Remove all of those men before us, and the Bible is non-existent.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
One need not be an authority if they are intimately related to the one who is. My father (and yours of course) is the authority and He has explained Himself in what amounts to a 6th grade reading level. I just read what's written.


I understand the things you say here. There are many things one may want to consider when approaching the scriptures.

I just happen to think that the fundamental, guiding, central principle is that the scriptures are in fact perfect. Everything else takes a back seat to that principle. All must agree with that principle.

Now I've been on your side of the fence before, for many years. I consider myself highly fortunate that some came along and told me some of what I'm telling you.


The Hebrew word is: H565 אִמְרָה 'imrah. It is in fact translated "commandment" one time. However it is translated "word(s)" 29 times. I don't have to have much seminary to see that "words" are the intended meaning. Again, we are talking about 6th grade reading level. I did get past that. :)
But then it does not say that "words" refers to the whole of scripture, either. So we are left with you, and those like you, having invented a non-scriptural rule that every word of "the bible" (whatever that means, since nobody agrees on which books to include) is "perfect", trying to force-fit everything to it, regardless of common sense.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
But then it does not say that "words" refers to the whole of scripture, either.
Any idea on how we would figure out which words should be included and which we should axe?
So we are left with you, and those like you, having invented a non-scriptural rule that every word of "the bible" (whatever that means, since nobody agrees on which books to include) is "perfect", trying to force-fit everything to it, regardless of common sense.
Man's common sense is dubious at best.

1Cor 3:19,

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree the scriptures to explain God, but that would not be possible if man did not explain God - working our way back from Jesus and his apostles, the prophets, like Ezekiel, Isaiah, Moses
So that would mean they all had religion... including Jesus himself. (John 1:18 ; Matthew 11:27)
Remove all of those men before us, and the Bible is non-existent.
You're making it too complicated.

John 3:16,

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
That is God explaining something about Himself, namely that He loved us enough to send His son so that we would everlasting life. It's not my idea or my attempt to explain God. He's explaining something about Himself to me. It's not that complicated.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Any idea on how we would figure out which words should be included and which we should axe?

Man's common sense is dubious at best.

1Cor 3:19,

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Yes. This has been done, to a large extent, over the centuries, by the churches, though of course there is plenty of dispute, in view of the opacity of a lot of the text, its internal discrepancies, the doubtful relevance of a fair amount of it to modern life, and so forth.

The key thing is to read the text, in context, for its meaning, rather than slavishly treating every word as if it were to be taken literally.
 
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rrobs

Well-Known Member
Yes. This has been done, to a large extent, over the centuries, by the churches, though of course there is plenty of dispute, in view of the opacity of a lot of the text, its internal discrepancies, the doubtful relevance of a fair amount of it to modern life, and so forth.

The key thing is to read the text, in context, for its meaning, rather than slavishly treating every word as if it were to be taken literally.
I think if I read your post like you want me to read the scriptures, I'd have no idea what you just said.

For example, it would all depend on what I thought the word "literally" means. In fact if everybody thought the word "literally" meant something different than the next guy, language would be worthless as a means of communication.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I think if I read your post like you want me to read the scriptures, I'd have no idea what you just said.

For example, it would all depend on what I thought the word "literally" means. In fact if everybody thought the word "literally" meant something different than the next guy, language would be worthless as a means of communication.
Your comprehension skills are a matter for you, but I think most readers will have little difficulty understanding my post.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Your comprehension skills are a matter for you, but I think most readers will have little difficulty understanding my post.
Then why all the problems with the scriptures? They use the same words we do with everything else we read.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
You're making it too complicated.

John 3:16,

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
That is God explaining something about Himself, namely that He loved us enough to send His son so that we would everlasting life. It's not my idea or my attempt to explain God. He's explaining something about Himself to me. It's not that complicated.
You disagree that the Bible consist of recorded words of God's prophets, God's son, and followers of God's son, Jesus Christ?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
In life, we have 2 forms about the discussion.

To discuss sion. Science as a human male version, to think upon concepts to gain powers. His Magi themes, the wise men or

One O Earth God stone, owner of O one heavenly gas spirit body, supporting one only self, a human. To claim a Holy life support.

2 versions of the same concepts about One O. The first is about the self who wanted to change the Nature of natural life.

The second was a taught theme about why you considered life and the body of a planet O and its heavens plus one self human was Holy. Due to changing natural first.

To claim a condition holy is secondary to having harmed it first.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
You disagree that the Bible consist of recorded words of God's prophets, God's son, and followers of God's son, Jesus Christ?
The scriptures consist of words that holy men spoke as they were moved, or inspired, by God.

2Pet 1:21,

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.​
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Yes. This has been done, to a large extent, over the centuries, by the churches, though of course there is plenty of dispute, in view of the opacity of a lot of the text, its internal discrepancies, the doubtful relevance of a fair amount of it to modern life, and so forth.

The key thing is to read the text, in context, for its meaning, rather than slavishly treating every word as if it were to be taken literally.
Ps 12:6,

The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Ps 119:140,

Thy word [is] very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
Prov 30:5,

Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
2Sam 22:31,

[As for] God, his way [is] perfect; the word of the LORD [is] tried: he [is] a buckler to all them that trust in him.
How can you in good conscience read verses like these and then go teach people who are hungry for truth that the scriptures have internal discrepancies, the irrelevance of a large part of it, etc? Why don't you go mangle the Bhagavad Gita, the Koran, the Tao Te Ching, or something else besides what you obviously don't really believe?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The scriptures consist of words that holy men spoke as they were moved, or inspired, by God.

2Pet 1:21,

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.​

And the his story quotes, an over consciousness now exists as the image/voice recording of man...the Designer Inventor. As he knows that his artificial machine has no consciousness or self volition. As the Designer he manipulates it, controls it and forces change.

The theme natural and word first stated that men named all states natural and they were good, formed, complete and whole in their highest form. Everything is in origin its highest form.

Then CHANGE occurred, to the state of natural.

Change is what science as the Sa TAN ist to form lists of changes to want to copy natural and highest. Yet he also quotes, what is owned by the heavenly spirit you cannot contain, for space the body oblivion holds it.

If you try to obtain/hold what the Lord in the Heavens owned you would be destroyed.

Man/men, the brothers, males formed a group agreement. So the theme/story teaching against self says the ALPHA inferred males A x GREED, agreement quoted themes from the heavenly consciousness, meaning self awareness...forced changed the God stone to get what they claimed was the same history Heavens.

And were proven wrong, life was sacrificed. Hence One status quotes means origin form, highest origin form, origin form not changed. For even an atmospheric reaction, involving change is still its highest form in change. For it is naturally supported by the highest body changing.

We already lived in the highest body, and also the highest body changing.

How the law of the relativity of the stone brought to the scientist/satanist attention that he could not own nor hold what God had formed....by his own stated reasoning, human and consciousness. No man is God a complete teaching, and a whole teaching, the summation with an end quote in the summary.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
The scriptures consist of words that holy men spoke as they were moved, or inspired, by God.

2Pet 1:21,

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.​
Yup. Men spoke from God. Exactly. The prophets, Jesus Christ, and his apostles. Men of religion.
 
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