Question about someone who are or become a muslim

Glaurung · Sep 28, 2020

Amanaki said:
1: Do you look down on someone who converted to Islam because of your view of Islam?

No. As a Christian, there's much I admire in Islam. Because from a Christian point of view Islam contains a great deal of truth. It's mostly in Islam's denial of the Incarnation where we part ways. In that, there is an untraversable chasm between our two faiths.

Amanaki said:
2: Is a muslim less worth then other people because of the faith in Allah and Muhammad?

Hardly.

Amanaki said:
3: Should a muslim of today stand responsable for what the Qur'an say even it was written a long time ago?

If you believe the Qur'an is the verbatim word of God, then yes, you are committing to belief in what the Qur'an says. The real question is not what the Qur'an contains, but how you interpret the contents therein. If it inspires you towards towards a Salafist fanaticism then I would encourage you to find a better interpretation. If it inspires you to virtue and a deep love of God then I have no quarrel with you.

If you don't believe the Qur'an is what the Islamic tradition claims it to be then I would have to question why you converted in the first place.

Amanaki said:
4: Should muslims stand corrected for what muslims 500-1000 years ago did in sin?

Corrected for what? Should you feel ashamed that Islam conquered a large chunk of the world? I don't see why. History is history and conquest was the same game everyone else was playing.

Amanaki said:
Do you see that many muslims are very peaceful people who never want to harm others?

Indeed. When I was in Indonesia (although I spent most of my time in a Christian village) the few Muslims I did encounter showed me nothing but hospitality. It's a shame that a loud, fanatical minority has become so visible in resent history. But at the same time, I'm not sympathetic to those who deny or downplay the murderous evil perpetuated in this world by certain, well-funded interpretations of fundamentalist Islam. I think Saudi Arabia and other like-minded actors have much to answer for in regards to that. Yes, the global perpetuation of their version of Islam has been a disaster for the world.

Spirit of Light · Sep 28, 2020

Musing Bassist said:
No. As a Christian, there's much I admire in Islam. Because from a Christian point of view Islam contains a great deal of truth. It's mostly in Islam's denial of the Incarnation where we part ways. In that, there is an untraversable chasm between our two faiths.

Hardly.

If you believe the Qur'an is the verbatim word of God, then yes, you are committing to belief in what the Qur'an says. The real question is not what the Qur'an contains, but how you interpret the contents therein. If it inspires you towards towards a Salafist fanaticism then I would encourage you to find a better interpretation. If it inspires you to virtue and a deep love of God then I have no quarrel with you.

If you don't believe the Qur'an is what the Islamic tradition claims it to be then I would have to question why you converted in the first place.

Corrected for what? Should you feel ashamed that Islam conquered a large chunk of the world? I don't see why. History is history and conquest was the same game everyone else was playing.

Indeed. When I was in Indonesia (although spent most of my time in a Christian village) the few Muslims I did encounter showed me nothing but hospitality. It's a shame that a loud, fanatical minority has become so visible in resent history. But at the same time, I'm not sympathetic to those who deny or downplay the murderous evil perpetuated in this world by certain, well-funded interpretations of fundamentalist Islam. I think Saudi Arabia and other like-minded actors have much to answer for in regards to that. Yes, the global perpetuation of their version of Islam has been a disaster for the world.

You mention a very important thing here. The salafist extremists.
Of those who do extreme action ( terror) 86% of them has relation to salafist teaching, only 6% are maminstream quran followers.

But of course no person who is muslim should ever harm others. So i would not support any terror groups

HonestJoe · Sep 28, 2020

Amanaki said:
I have during the last days seen many comments about muslims or Islam ( some good comments some not so good) and i started to think.
Maybe i only notice it more clearly this days since i become a muslim my self, but my question is this.

1: Do you look down on someone who converted to Islam because of your view of Islam?
2: Is a muslim less worth then other people because of the faith in Allah and Muhammad?
3: Should a muslim of today stand responsable for what the Qur'an say even it was written a long time ago?
4: Should muslims stand corrected for what muslims 500-1000 years ago did in sin?

Do you see that many muslims are very peaceful people who never want to harm others?

1 - I've no especially negative view of Islam so no. I find religious faith in general largely irrational but there are lots of irrational secular things many people believe too so I hold pretty much everyone in equal contempt.

2 - No. All people are of equal fundamental value.
3 - Responsible is the wrong word but if someone is going to take something as the fundamental basis for their life, they need to be able to justify or account for all aspects of it. That is especially where their way of life impacts other people, even if only indirectly.
4 - No. None of us are responsible for the actions of others just because they're fall under a particular grouping we also do. Much like the previous answer though, if something bad is done in the name of your faith, you need to be able to account for it one way or another (such as explaining why it was a misapplication of the faith or justified in context).

I totally recognise that most Muslims are good people with no bad intentions (as much as people are in general). Regardless of religious belief, being a good person and having good intentions doesn't mean any of us can't do harm inadvertently nor that other people necessarily agree with our own perception of what is good and bad.

firedragon · Sep 28, 2020

Amanaki said:
Let them reveal them self as haters, then my goal with this tread had been successful

Trust me. The response to your comment above would be that they dont hate, they just speak scriptural fact. And if you ask for evidence to this "scriptural fact", some cut and pastes can be expected. Lists of verses which they don't understand but seem right to their cause. Lists which they have never studied in context of the whole book. Lists from websites.

You shall see my friend. That is inevitable.

loverofhumanity · Sep 28, 2020

Amanaki said:
I have during the last days seen many comments about muslims or Islam ( some good comments some not so good) and i started to think.
Maybe i only notice it more clearly this days since i become a muslim my self, but my question is this.

1: Do you look down on someone who converted to Islam because of your view of Islam?
2: Is a muslim less worth then other people because of the faith in Allah and Muhammad?
3: Should a muslim of today stand responsable for what the Qur'an say even it was written a long time ago?
4: Should muslims stand corrected for what muslims 500-1000 years ago did in sin?

Do you see that many muslims are very peaceful people who never want to harm others?

Congratulations Amanaki on becoming a Muslim! It indeed is truth I believe, and the Holy Quran a guidance to mankind. Islam, is a religion of peace, I firmly and unhesitatingly believe. The Quran always only teaches self defense. (Sura 2:190) Early Muslims in Muhammad’s time, only fought to defend themselves and freedom of worship. Later, after Muhammad’s passing, the Caliphs went against the law of non aggression clearly stated in the Quran because of the desire for wealth and power. They created many false Hadiths claiming Muhammad approved of aggression and murder in order to convince people to fight their illegal wars against the law of the Quran. They caused much suffering and death but none of it was approved by the Quran or Muhammad. These hadiths , to this day have poisoned the reputation of Islam. The Quran only is the Word of Allah nothing else.

Anyone who studies the Quran can discover for themselves that it only ever teaches peace and brotherhood. Unfortunately, enemies of Islam will quote these false hadiths laying blame on the impeccable character of Muhammad and those who disobey the Quran. But to those who know, Muhammad transformed the warring tribes of the Arabian Peninsula and made of them a great nation.

Spirit of Light · Sep 28, 2020

loverofhumanity said:
Congratulations Amanaki on becoming a Muslim! It indeed is truth I believe, and the Holy Quran a guidance to mankind. Islam, is a religion of peace, I firmly and unhesitatingly believe. The Quran always only teaches self defense. (Sura 2:190) Early Muslims in Muhammad’s time, only fought to defend themselves and freedom of worship. Later, after Muhammad’s passing, the Caliphs went against the law of non aggression clearly stated in the Quran because of the desire for wealth and power. They created many false Hadiths claiming Muhammad approved of aggression and murder in order to convince people to fight their illegal wars against the law of the Quran. They caused much suffering and death but none of it was approved by the Quran or Muhammad. These hadiths , to this day have poisoned the reputation of Islam. The Quran only is the Word of Allah nothing else.

Anyone who studies the Quran can discover for themselves that it only ever teaches peace and brotherhood. Unfortunately, enemies of Islam will quote these false hadiths laying blame on the impeccable character of Muhammad and those who disobey the Quran. But to those who know, Muhammad transformed the warring tribes of the Arabian Peninsula and made of them a great nation.

Thank you @loverofhumanity

icehorse · Sep 28, 2020

firedragon said:
Lies. Now please go to your google search, find a website where you can cut and paste lists, and do some shallow surfing, and pretend that its "clear reading".

Man, I am so friggin tired of you implying that I'm lying. I've read your book and it's simply a mediocre book with a lot of horrible messages. This is not rocket science.

icehorse · Sep 28, 2020

Amanaki said:
As i said i am not harmful to 9thers, i do not follow harmful teaching. The way i see Islam is a peaceful practice.

Why do you keep picking a tiny verse and think it represent Islam?

@Amanaki - Based on my interactions with you, I suspect that you are indeed a peaceful person.

But it's not difficult for critics to defend the claim that the Quran is a manual for War against non-Muslims. So whether you know it or not, you are defending a very divisive, cruel, non-peaceful book.

As for "picking on a tiny verse", you've got to be kidding! The book is LOADED with violent and divisive verses.

Saint Frankenstein · Sep 28, 2020

icehorse said:
The book is LOADED with violent and divisive verses.

Not really.

icehorse · Sep 28, 2020

Saint Frankenstein said:
Not really.

Which translation did you read? Because the three I've studied have hundreds of divisive verses.

(now to be fair, the bible is as bad or worse, but that's a different topic)

Saint Frankenstein · Sep 28, 2020

icehorse said:
Which translation did you read? Because the three I've studied have hundreds of divisive verses.

(now to be fair, the bible is as bad or worse, but that's a different topic)

I have a copy of the Study Qur'an and a Shia Tajweed Qur'an from Syria. I don't read or use Saudi Wahhabi garbage.

icehorse · Sep 28, 2020

Saint Frankenstein said:
I have a copy of the Study Qur'an and a Shia Tajweed Qur'an from Syria. I don't read or use Saudi Wahhabi garbage.

I don't like the "Wahhabi garbage" either, but the problem is that hundreds of millions of copies of these versions have been printed and distributed around the world. So the reality is that it's out there in mass quantities, and that has a BIG impact.

But let me ask you a specific question. When you read the 2nd Surah, can you see how it's divisive?

ecco · Sep 28, 2020

Amanaki said:
Let them reveal them self as haters, then my goal with this tread had been successful

So your actual goal has just been to flush out people who hate Muslims. Have you achieved your goal already, or do you need to await more responses?

Amanaki said:
You mention a very important thing here. The salafist extremists.
Of those who do extreme action ( terror) 86% of them has relation to salafist teaching, only 6% are maminstream quran followers.

Hmm. I wonder which you consider worse...

Posters on this forum who dislike parts of Islam as evidenced by their responses to your exploratory thread.
-or-
"salafist extremists ... who do extreme action (terror)"

Before you answer, take into account that the "salafist extremists" know much more about the Koran what can be said and what should be done than "Posters on this forum".

ecco · Sep 28, 2020

firedragon said:
Trust me. The response to your comment above would be that they dont hate, they just speak scriptural fact. And if you ask for evidence to this "scriptural fact", some cut and pastes can be expected. Lists of verses which they don't understand but seem right to their cause. Lists which they have never studied in context of the whole book. Lists from websites.

You shall see my friend. That is inevitable.

See post #53 above. Feel free to respond if you like.

ecco · Sep 28, 2020

loverofhumanity said:
Congratulations Amanaki on becoming a Muslim! It indeed is truth I believe, and the Holy Quran a guidance to mankind. Islam, is a religion of peace, I firmly and unhesitatingly believe. The Quran always only teaches self defense. (Sura 2:190) Early Muslims in Muhammad’s time, only fought to defend themselves and freedom of worship. Later, after Muhammad’s passing, the Caliphs went against the law of non aggression clearly stated in the Quran because of the desire for wealth and power. They created many false Hadiths claiming Muhammad approved of aggression and murder in order to convince people to fight their illegal wars against the law of the Quran. They caused much suffering and death but none of it was approved by the Quran or Muhammad. These hadiths , to this day have poisoned the reputation of Islam. The Quran only is the Word of Allah nothing else.

Anyone who studies the Quran can discover for themselves that it only ever teaches peace and brotherhood. Unfortunately, enemies of Islam will quote these false hadiths laying blame on the impeccable character of Muhammad and those who disobey the Quran. But to those who know, Muhammad transformed the warring tribes of the Arabian Peninsula and made of them a great nation.

If Islam is so perfect why did The Bab and Balullah leave it to begin their own religion?

If Islam is so perfect why did high-ranking officials of Islam persecute The Bab and Balullah?

firedragon · Sep 28, 2020

ecco said:
Before you answer, take into account that the "salafist extremists" know much more about the Koran what can be said and what should be done than "Posters on this forum".

How many so called "Salafist Extremists" do you know personally or interacted with to understand what their knowledge in the Quran is to compare with everyone in this forum and make this claim you just made? Please explain how you judge their "knowing" as well. Whats the criteria you place?

firedragon · Sep 28, 2020

ecco said:
If Islam is so perfect why did The Bab and Balullah leave it to begin their own religion?

If Islam is so perfect why did high-ranking officials of Islam persecute The Bab and Balullah?

So you judge science by the one who dropped bombs?

firedragon · Sep 28, 2020

icehorse said:
Man, I am so friggin tired of you implying that I'm lying. I've read your book and it's simply a mediocre book with a lot of horrible messages. This is not rocket science.

If its not a lie, prove it with your cut and paste. Lets see how much you have "read the book". Show us what this "clear reading is". Go ahead.

Rather than making rhetorical comments, why not try to be a little advance in your evidence based approach?

Cheers.

Saint Frankenstein · Sep 28, 2020

icehorse said:
I don't like the "Wahhabi garbage" either, but the problem is that hundreds of millions of copies of these versions have been printed and distributed around the world. So the reality is that it's out there in mass quantities, and that has a BIG impact.

But let me ask you a specific question. When you read the 2nd Surah, can you see how it's divisive?

Which parts specifically?

Spirit of Light · Sep 28, 2020

ecco said:
So your actual goal has just been to flush out people who hate Muslims. Have you achieved your goal already, or do you need to await more responses?

Hmm. I wonder which you consider worse...

Posters on this forum who dislike parts of Islam as evidenced by their responses to your exploratory thread.
-or-
"salafist extremists ... who do extreme action (terror)"

Before you answer, take into account that the "salafist extremists" know much more about the Koran what can be said and what should be done than "Posters on this forum".

I do disagree with muslim haters and i do not like nor support extremist terrorists

Question about someone who are or become a muslim

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