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Charlie Hebdo Muslim hypocrisy still not cured

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
So which Muslims are we supposed to condemn, the mistreated underclass of the French suburbs, or the political elite of Pakistan?

Both, neither? Or does it not matter at all?
Neither

But we should not condone their violent actions
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
When I read wiki, Imran Khan seems a very nice guy, even called philanthropist, and he used to be married to a nice looking woman.

The same Imran Khan who become more fundamentalist after the death of his mother, has backing of the Army, and is known by liberals in Pakistan as 'Taliban Khan' and refers to Osama Bin Laden as a martyr?

Meh...I'm not rolling with Wiki on this one...
He was one heck of a cricketer, and a bit of a party boy in his youth. My mum had a crush on him.

More dangerous seems this man "Khadim Hussain Rizvi" (although Pakistan let him get away with such, so condones?approves what he says)

Well...I'm not claiming Imran Khan is the world's most dangerous man. Just that he has the credibility of a turnip when arguing about how Western cartoons are the height of insults to Islam, and he's playing to his audience. If he was interested in respect for religion, he has far bigger issues closer to home.

I'll have a crack at your questions, but I'm an Aussie, in case that matters.

What do you think:
a) Should a Muslim be allowed to preach hate in a democracy in the West?

No, but my threshold for 'hate' is fairly high.


b) Would a Christian be allowed to preach hate in the Middle East countries?

Depends on the country, but generally no. Although my issue isn't whether they can peddle 'hate'. It's what the threshold for hate is.

c) Should Freedom of Speech be restricted (keep in mind above Hate-Imam)?

Yes. But not much.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I didnt expect all Catholics to apologise for thw IRA, or all Christians to apologise for anti balaka. No apology needed. Just recognition that terrorism exists in most religions
Agreed.

Breivik is bizarre in that he did pretend to be some sort of crusading Christian knight in his manifesto but he later admitted that that was just a ruse to dupe the Christian Islamophobes, and that he actually views Jesus as a weakling and prays to Odin instead.

I will add that Norse Paganism is very popular among extremist white supremacists. So we do have our own problems with violence and bigotry within the scene.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Are they nice atheists? Then it would. But if they're violent arses, not so much.
:DNo, that is not what I meant.
There are now ca. 1100 million Atheist, with an average violence. Multiply that by 7. Compare that to what we have now;)
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I didnt expect all Catholics to apologise for thw IRA, or all Christians to apologise for anti balaka. No apology needed. Just recognition that terrorism exists in most religions
But a good Christian would IMO. I agree that this is of vital importance, and it should be put in words too.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Perhaps they gave no thought to how
they'd live in & react to another culture?
People often do things without thinking.
Most of the Muslim terrorists in the West recently, IIRC, have been second generation immigrants. First generation immigrants are usually very patriotic and happy to assimilate (in terms of working hard and being successful in society), at least in America. It's their children being radicalized for some reason. It may be a backlash against society because they feel they don't belong due to bigotry or they're lashing out due to being failures in life (lack of employment or marital prospects, not meeting expectations, etc.). They're similar to other mass murderers and even school shooters, psychologically.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Of course it is a fact that most terrorists are religious (I assume ca. 84%).

How about Pirabakaran? Well, he was the worst kind of terrorist in the world. Was he in this 84% you assumed? How about his whole group? Are they all "religious"?

Please explain.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Most of the Muslim terrorists in the West recently, IIRC, have been second generation immigrants. First generation immigrants are usually very patriotic and happy to assimilate (in terms of working hard and being successful in society), at least in America. It's their children being radicalized for some reason. It may be a backlash against society because they feel they don't belong due to bigotry or they're lashing out due to being failures in life (lack of employment or marital prospects, not meeting expectations, etc.). They're similar to other mass murderers and even school shooters, psychologically.
Regarding the Charlie Hebdo assaults, the violence is
rooted in anger over treatment of Islam. Whether 1st
or 2nd generation, it's still about religion & culture.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
No, but my threshold for 'hate' is fairly high.
This specific issue, Hate-Imams teaching little Muslim kids is of course quite different. You are a grown up, brainwashing impact is less.

Depends on the country, but generally no. Although my issue isn't whether they can peddle 'hate'. It's what the threshold for hate is.
Exactly. Here it was about little children who are being brainwashed by a Hate-Imam

Yes. But not much.
I also value Freedom of Speech. But suppose Freedom of Speech e.g. Wilders announcing a "Muhammad drawing contest" would lead to the whole world being nuked (Pakistan Imam actually said this; probably brainwashes all his little Muslim students with the same), then Freedom of Speech leads to destruction of the world, and it might be worth to consider if "Freedom of Speech" was worth it.

Freedom of Speech as long as it does not hurt others, is the best. Especially if everyone follows it; preferably out of their free will:D
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Regarding the Charlie Hebdo assaults, the violence is
rooted in anger over treatment of Islam. Whether 1st
or 2nd generation, it's still about religion & culture.
I'm more interested in the root causes of their actions rather than their claimed ideological reasons. Those don't really tell us anything.

And whether they're first generation immigrants or not matters, for obvious reasons.

Here's an example: Breivik was 'already damaged by the age of two'

I would like to see such informative investigations for all such terrorists and mass murderers, not just for the white ones. What we learn from their backgrounds and upbringing, we can use to prevent such failures of the system in the future. Most of these cases could've been prevented.
 
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