PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
Predicting wars is very much like predicting the sun will shine.
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God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
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PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
The problem is, if you assume a god exists, that the present method of delivering messages is flawed. Very very flawed.
It could be designed by conmen to deceive us. Because it dodges any attempt at proving itself, it leaves it to us to sort out the genuine messenger from the conman, we have to believe the genuine messenger is getting the message and interpreting it to us correctly, it allows conmen to recruit an army of conmen to try to convince us and when we ask how do the messengers get their messages, we're told we wouldn't understand.
The Emperor's New Clothes - Wikipedia
It could be designed by conmen to deceive us. Because it dodges any attempt at proving itself, it leaves it to us to sort out the genuine messenger from the conman, we have to believe the genuine messenger is getting the message and interpreting it to us correctly, it allows conmen to recruit an army of conmen to try to convince us and when we ask how do the messengers get their messages, we're told we wouldn't understand.
The Emperor's New Clothes - Wikipedia
Many can and have changed that nature. Those that do not, or struggle to do so, are weak and need guidance. I personally have benefited greatly by that guidance. The Jones can keep it all.
Sometimes a person has to reach an absolute low, before they start the climb of change.
Maybe that low is required by all, maybe we will all face that low before we realise Materialism is a soul devouring cancer.
The method is perfect in design. If a person wishes to know and Love God, the way is open. That is what this life is for, an opportunity to Know and Love God, of one's own choice to do so.
The greatest fear possible is being left to oneself because they are not interested in finding that love, or have a love of things itger than God.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You are free to believe whatever you want to, but I believe that God has conferred upon the Messengers of God a spiritual nature that other humans do not possess, and that is why they alone understand communication from God.
“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67
To my knowledge it is only Christianity that describes God as a person. Baha’is believe God is a personal God, but that does not ne mean God is a person. I know of no Baha’is who claim to have had direct contact with God. That goes against everything we believe about God.
Personal God
While the Bahá'í writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2]Shoghi Effendi writes:
What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[17][18]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God in the Baha'i Faith
But God is not a person, and it is not a Baha’i belief that anyone will be in direct contact with God in the afterlife.
"We will have experience of God's spirit through His Prophets in the next world, but God is too great for us to know without this Intermediary. The Prophets know God, but how is more than our human minds can grasp. We believe we may attain in the next world to seeing the Prophets. There is certainly a future life. Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 14, 1947)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File
Logically speaking, an All-Knowing God knows more than you do about the best Method of communication.
God does not want to communicate directly to humans, what about that do you NOT understand, and an omnipotent God only does what He wants to do.
You really don’t get it do you, YOU want God to communicate directly to humans, but obviously God does not want to, and that is one reason among many that he doesn’t.
You and others like you think you know more than an All-Knowing and All-Wise God about how He should communicate to humans. This is the epitome of arrogance.
No, I have never considered that because I have complete certitude of my beliefs.
They can believe whatever they want to, as can I. I do not care if they think I am delusional.
See passage cited above.
I believe I am right, they believe they are right, only God knows who is right. I believe will find out after we die although I am not sure everyone will find out. If people were in the dark here, they might remain in the dark in the afterlife.
No, I do not think “I” am right and everyone else is wrong. I have certitude of my beliefs. If people want to believe that were in contact with God that is their choice since we all have free will to choose. If you want to believe that you can too. I would never want to be in contact with God even if it was possible, because I understand the nature of God and how powerful He is. Besides, I do not need to be in contact with God because I believe that what Baha’u’llah wrote is the Voice of God Himself.
“Attract the hearts of men, through the call of Him, the one alone Beloved. Say: This is the Voice of God, if ye do but hearken. This is the Day Spring of the Revelation of God, did ye but know it. This is the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God, were ye to recognize it. This is the Source of the commandment of God, did ye but judge it fairly. This is the manifest and hidden Secret; would that ye might perceive it. O peoples of the world! Cast away, in My name that transcendeth all other names, the things ye possess, and immerse yourselves in this Ocean in whose depths lay hidden the pearls of wisdom and of utterance, an ocean that surgeth in My name, the All-Merciful. Thus instructeth you He with Whom is the Mother Book.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 33-34
I consider this conversation over because there is nothing more to say unless you have something new to bring to the table.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God communicated with them through the Holy Spirit and that is as direct as it gets.
I do not understand exactly how they received communication from God as that is beyond my ability to understand, so I simply accept what I cannot understand, and besides that, I have no need to know.
Why I trust Baha'u'llah is not something anyone can understand unless they are a Baha'i.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What mysterious "original" message are you referring to?
Good then, if that is what you believe we don't have to discuss this anymore.
It means they all came from the one true God. Baha'u'llah explained why the religions are different.
“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
End of what? It does not say end of the world.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Matthew the Apostle, also known as Saint Matthew and as Levi, was, according to the New Testament, one of the twelve apostles of Jesus. According to Christian tradition, he was also one of the four Evangelists and thus is also known as Matthew the Evangelist.
Place of burial: Cathedral of Saint Mary of the ...
Profession: Tax collector
Matthew the Apostle - Wikipedia
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe God answers in a voice, but sometimes we get an answer to our prayers, even if we did not make a request in prayer, because God knows what we want and need. I got an answer to my unspoken prayers yesterday. I am looking right at her.
People are free to believe that of they want to and people believe all sorts of things, but that does not make them true.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is man's material nature that wants more, but man also has a spiritual nature that is noble.
“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60
The full passage can be read here: THE TWO NATURES IN MAN
ppp
Well-Known Member
My material nature is noble. It's my spiritual nature that wants more.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I said: They do not communicate with God, God communicates to them, through the Holy Spirit. How that happens is not something we ordinary humans can understand because it is beyond our ability to understand.
We do not need to understand how God communicates to the Messengers; all we need to understand is the messages they deliver.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Shoghi Effendi was not a Messenger of God. He was one of the two appointed interpreters of the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is not up to me because I am not a Jew or a Christian.
The Bible is their book.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God did talk to us, through Baha'u'llah.
“Attract the hearts of men, through the call of Him, the one alone Beloved. Say: This is the Voice of God, if ye do but hearken. This is the Day Spring of the Revelation of God, did ye but know it. This is the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God, were ye to recognize it. This is the Source of the commandment of God, did ye but judge it fairly. This is the manifest and hidden Secret; would that ye might perceive it.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 33
If people make demands upon God to communicate with them directly they don't deserve Him.
If God communicated to people directly nobody would deny Him. That is one reason God does not communicate directly as God wants belief to be a choice.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Don't be then. God does not need anyone's belief because God is fully self-sufficient.
“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136
“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess.”Gleanings, p. 148
“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166
I believe what God is based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote about God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I never said we cannot understand the message. I said we cannot understand HOW God communicates to the Messengers. We do not need to understand that.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
We say that because it is true, although not all theists know what the Plan is.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Believe whatever explanation you want to believe and I will believe mine.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No expectations of God are ever reasonable, because it is UNreasonable to expect anything from God.
You are darn tootin' that the messages get warped over time, and that God knows that will happen, and that is one reason why God sends another Messenger with a new message that is not warped.
“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171