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The Bible Tells Me So

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Given the current state of the world, doing too much of that doesn't seem like a good idea to me, in a way. The way out of the messes we make probably calls for more humility, in many instances. Men who think they are god often err
Not only that, if we are the image of God in a perfect sense as God wants it, it's a pretty messy situation I would say. Because Adam and Eve were given the push out of the Garden of Eden, no longer really the "image" of God. And history thereafter shows a pretty messy situation. God intervened when He wanted to, but now a Christian's trust must be in Christ Jesus as the one exemplifying how a Christian is to live.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The question is rather vague, but I'll say this.
What I prefer to believe is that we are little bits of material animated by a little spark of God. Our identity is the illusion that we're separate. When we die, our meat continues on in the vast cycle of transformation that is the material universe. Our "soul" merges back into the Ground of Being, God if you want to call it that. All that really disappears, though, is the illusion that we're separate beings.
Tom
Thanks for explanation what you believe. I believe that when we die out body decomposes and our soul passes from the material world to the spiritual world, or what people often refer to as heaven. I believe that each individual soul retains its individuality and continues on the spiritual journey that it started in this life. The soul cannot die and that is why it is called the immortal soul.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Thanks for explanation what you believe. I believe that when we die out body decomposes and our soul passes from the material world to the spiritual world, or what people often refer to as heaven. I believe that each individual soul retains its individuality and continues on the spiritual journey that it started in this life. The soul cannot die and that is why it is called the immortal soul.
Hello. I looked for the term "immortal soul" in the Bible but could not find it.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

But how many faith claims does this actually break down into. Thinking about it a little, it seems like that this requires faith in multiple things

a) faith in the son
b) faith in the idea of an afterlife, with eternal life
c) faith that you deserve this love
 

Pipiripi

End Times Prophecy.
So where is Adam now? And everyone who died before Jesus was born?
In their graves, they are dust. Henok and Elijah and Moses and the people that has resurrected after Jesus has resurrect, they are in heaven in their immortal body.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Hello. I looked for the term "immortal soul" in the Bible but could not find it.
You will not find those words together in the Bible, but that does not mean the soul is not immortal.

According to my beliefs the human soul is the same as the human spirit so when the Bible says the spirit returns to God that means the soul returns to God, and since God is in heaven (the spiritual world) that is where the spirit (soul) goes when we die, where we continue the journey we started in this material world.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
But how many faith claims does this actually break down into. Thinking about it a little, it seems like that this requires faith in multiple things

a) faith in the son
b) faith in the idea of an afterlife, with eternal life
c) faith that you deserve this love
Eternal life is life without end. It is not after life. Eternal life is life. Do I think I may die? Yes. Do I think I may not die? Also yes. Do I think now that I can live again? Yes.
As for deserving love from God, no one 'deserves' life from God. Please notice what Paul wrote:
"Christ has also introduced us to God's gift of undeserved grace on which we now take our stand. So we are happy, as we look forward to sharing in the glory of God." (Romans 5:2)
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

If that is so, then why did Jesus need his body, going forward from his death? (and did he then technically die, as the body remained with the spirit, or at least quickly returned to it [or vice versa] after the crucifixion, functional and intact?)
 
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amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Eternal life is life without end. It is not after life. Eternal life is life. Do I think I may die? Yes. Do I think I may not die? Also yes. Do I think now that I can live again? Yes.
As for deserving love from God, no one 'deserves' life from God. Please notice what Paul wrote:
"Christ has also introduced us to God's gift of undeserved grace on which we now take our stand. So we are happy, as we look forward to sharing in the glory of God." (Romans 5:2)

Where is this perpetual life to be lived? How? And if your spirit goes away for a time to return to your body, where is it for that time, and why?

Believing you deserve 'undeserved grace' is also a faith claim - you still have to have a good deal of faith to believe you deserve something you do not, that you deserve what is undeserved
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
The physical body of man returns to dust but the spirit returns to God:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Below is an apt description of what I believe happens when we die:

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

Your interpretation of Ecc 12:7 has to be incorrect because God told Adam "YOU shall return" to dust. God did not say "your body will return to dust", but "YOU", Adam, would return to his native earth..
Therefore the correct interpretation of Ecc 12:7 is that the spirit which returns to God is the breath of life that God gave Adam and which animated Adam who was dust.

If the spirit itself is the man then the man did not return to dust as God said he would.

You're not the only one who can't accept what God told Adam. There are billions.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The Gospels were the next Revelation after that of Moses and both the Torah and Gospels spoke of future Revelations from God that would clarify such matters as well as bring new concepts, ideas and teachings relevant to the progress and evolution of man. We saw that some 600 years after Christ, Muhammad appeared. Whilst Christ’s teachings focused mainly on the individual, Muhammad progressed a step further towards that of the community and nationhood. Then in the 19th century, Baha’u’llah appeared with teachings for a world civilisation. So you can see that all these Revelations are as classes in one school through which humanity has evolved and progressed. Now is the age when, due to technical advances, a world civilisation is within reach both ideologically and practically.

Along the way, many with worldly ambitions have misused and corrupted religion for their own ends thus religion is renewed by God from age to age and it’s purity restored advancing humanity to the next stage in its ever unfolding evolution. Our next stage is likely to be world unity and world brotherhood, thus a widening of the circle to include all humanity.

Do you believe the Gospels were "revelations gf Gods"?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You will not find those words together in the Bible, but that does not mean the soul is not immortal.

According to my beliefs the human soul is the same as the human spirit so when the Bible says the spirit returns to God that means the soul returns to God, and since God is in heaven (the spiritual world) that is where the spirit (soul) goes when we die, where we continue the journey we started in this material world.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Yes, that spirit, or ability to live, goes back to God in a sense, upon death, because He is the only one that can ultimately give life.
God told Adam that they would die, not live, if they disobeyed. This is a very basic concept to understand what the Bible is saying. In order to really understand this, one must do a pretty careful examination of the scriptures to recognize what spirit and soul mean, and how these words are used in reference to life and how upon death the spirit goes back to God.

Genesis 2:7 helps to explain this.

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

So was he a dead soul before that? Because It says he BECAME a living soul. There's a difference between becoming a living soul rather than transferring a soul as if it were living before that to a body. Because it says the man became a living soul.
God's word has it written that the soul can die. Ezekiel 18:4 - "Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die."
Therefore, the soul is not inherently immortal.
Have a good night.
 

Pipiripi

End Times Prophecy.
My friend I am not an English man. I hope that you have understand what that I am saying there.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Where is this perpetual life to be lived? How? And if your spirit goes away for a time to return to your body, where is it for that time, and why?

Believing you deserve 'undeserved grace' is also a faith claim - you still have to have a good deal of faith to believe you deserve something you do not, that you deserve what is undeserved
Again, God does not owe life to anyone. If I thought I deserved life, I wouldn't be praying to God to forgive me for my sins and allow Him to help me to stay clear of things He considers bad. The spirit is that life energy that God can infuse, including making a body to inhabit that energy from God. He remembers those He wants to remember. The life I'm looking forward to is on a cleansed earth filled with righteousness and joy. There are many scriptures explaining this, but Revelation 21:1-5 helps. I hope you will look at it. Also when Jesus prayed, "Let your kingdom come, let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." If Jesus thought God's will was being done on the earth in the complete sense, he would not have prayed otherwise. Since it's late, perhaps we can continue another time. In the meantime you may want to look at www.jw.org which helps to answer many questions.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I don't know, it just seems like all this is trying to stratify a divine force that's supposed to be the master of truth, and therefore is allowed to make itself and the truth mutable. The opposing argument is: who are we to define god? We don't get discern what it is or what it can do. We aren't designed for that. We are just a bunch of dumb primates, aren't we? A couple weeks ago I lost one set of keys, but later found them by luck. I just spent the last few hours being anxious about stupid problems from yesterday. So this is a finite and limited state I find myself in, in the primate body, with the primate brain. And with this in mind, how am I expected to pinpoint the exact nuances of the trinity? Or know precisely what I should know or have faith in, in order to be 'saved,' whatever that means? It's like.. people don't even have their ducks in a row down here. Who are you going to trust then, to elaborate on all the divine platitudes
"Who are we to define God?" The Christian faith comes from the Jewish faith. Jews (even rabbis) are screaming at each other at the top of their lungs, waving their hands frantically, endlessly debating the finer points of the religion. Yet, when Nazis tortured them to death in concentration camps, their religion was strong enough to endure (til the end, that is), and some went without food to make sure that the more fragile kids would have enough to eat, and their bare bones showed just how hungry these heroes were. As it turns out, arguing about the bible, and questioning everything, actually strengthened their faith (didn't destroy it, nor did it destroy the faith of others around them). Of course, it could be argued that one's religious beliefs are so frail that one must torture to death others in order to defend your own religion (hence Nazis, and hence early Christians who tortured scientists who had dared to talk science which threatened their version (the human version) of religion. For example, when a scientist speculated that meteors fall from the sky, this was against church doctrine (that the heavens are God's domain, and are, therefore, perfect), and that it is blasphemy to say that meteors fall from God's perfect heavens (aka sky). Multiple Gods to define: There are a myriad of religions, and unless you insist that they are all pagan, all wrong, all evil, and all ridiculous, you must find out how your God stacks up to their God. Noting that ancient Jews were polytheistic, and that "some human" (perhaps with divine guidance) rewrote their religion, omitting the concept of multiple Gods, we have to ask if that new bible is correct. If we don't understand who all those Gods are, we might pick the wrong religion and incur the wrath of the real (or most powerful, or most wrathful) God. Some Christians writhe on the floor and babble in tongues (supposedly God's language), and they supposedly are in communication with God. Noting that they might writhe on the floor, babble, then get up and say that they had a conversation with God, himself, and now can state, with authority, that Jonah lived in a whale, and, in the same sentence they can call other religions pagan or silly. It is a matter of seeing the splinter in the eye of our neighbor and not seeing the log in our own eye. Most religions have elements of seemingly silliness, and sometimes that "babble" turns out to be right. It would be rather difficult to argue against the idea that Revelation quite correctly predicted the war in Iraq that God ordrered us not to make (and the economic and health problems that God would bring down if Iraq was attacked,such as Revelation 15: (seven plagues).
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If that is so, then why did Jesus need his body, going forward from his death? (and did he then technically die, as the body remained with the spirit, or at least quickly returned to it [or vice versa] after the crucifixion, functional and intact?)
Jesus never needed His body after He died, and according to my beliefs Jesus never rose from the dead.

I believe that after Jesus died on the cross His body remained dead and at that time His soul (spirit) ascended to heaven and took on another form, a spiritual body, and that is where Jesus is now and where He will stay.

Why do you think that Jesus said "It is finished" when He was dying on the cross, just so He could come back to life and do more stuff?

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Moreover, Jesus said that the world would SEE Him no more and He was no more in the world BEFORE He died on the cross:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


So how is it possible that Jesus came back to life AFTER that and 500 witnesses saw Him walking around? I believe that the resurrection stories were fictitious stories men wrote, not real life accounts. They were written to bring Jesus back to life so people would believe that Jesus never really died. The sad thing is that the bodily resurrection story was unnecessary since Jesus never really died since He is alive in heaven in a spiritual body.

The irony is that Jesus said that the flesh profits nothing yet Christians worship the resurrected body of Jesus and believe the bodily resurrection is the most important thing about the Christian faith.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The life I'm looking forward to is on a cleansed earth filled with righteousness and joy. There are many scriptures explaining this, but Revelation 21:1-5 helps. I hope you will look at it. Also when Jesus prayed, "Let your kingdom come, let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." If Jesus thought God's will was being done on the earth in the complete sense, he would not have prayed otherwise.
I also believe there will be such a kingdom of God on earth, a cleansed earth filled with righteousness and joy, but I do not believe Jesus will build the kingdom. If Jesus had been planning to build it Himself, He would have said so. Instead He said:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

I believe the kingdom of God will be built for the living and future generations of the living, not for dead people who rise from their graves.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Again, God does not owe life to anyone. If I thought I deserved life, I wouldn't be praying to God to forgive me for my sins

Then you are working toward trying to deserve something, hence you think you will not get it if you don't deserve it

Since it's late

It's not late for me, this is when I am awake. I am a 3rd shifter

As it turns out, arguing about the bible, and questioning everything, actually strengthened their faith

Well paul wrote things about people having unity in what they should think or believe, so it must not be the same for Christians. Though of course, this is reason that they splintered into a thousand faiths: it's because their religion doesn't support internal arguing, and it is likely that people are physiologically programmed to disagree

Put some spaces inbetween your blocks of text please. Helps keep the forum readable

Moreover, Jesus said that the world would SEE Him no more and He was no more in the world BEFORE He died on the cross:

I don't get the bits that are like that, I'm instantly confused

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Even more confused now
 
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