Tumah
Veteran Member
Nothing to be worried about, I've just been working. Thanks for the feelings.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
... and if you're wrong?
- Thread starter Tumah
- Start date
Tumah
Veteran Member
It doesn't really sound like we're having the same conversation.
Tumah
Veteran Member
That's all you know about him?
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Not really. It isn't on the backs of a few men but on the reliability of the TaNaKh that pointed to the Messiah confirmed by 500 eyewitnesses of a resurrection.
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
So it was there all along. As Christians, we simply see it fulfilled.
That was my point too.
The message made Christians believe Jesus was and is God.
We are speaking of a historical context where innocent people were fed to lions by the Romans...so...maybe we take "Good" for granted.
Tumah
Veteran Member
I have no idea. That's what I'm trying to find out from you. Can I get a brief bio on the man/woman from you?What should I know about him?
Tumah
Veteran Member
The remainder of Jer. 31 outlines what the new covenant will entail and it's nothing like Christianity. So the remainder of your interpretation of that passage relies on eisegesis. That being the case, you can't rely on that text for proof.
Eyes to See
Well-Known Member
Seeing as I am quite late in this thread I will just add this.
There is a scripture that retorts your OP quite well...let me find it...
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either. But whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. As for you, what you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you will also remain in union with the Son and in union with the Father. Furthermore, this is what he himself promised us—the life everlasting.-1 John 2:22-25.
There is a scripture that retorts your OP quite well...let me find it...
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either. But whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. As for you, what you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you will also remain in union with the Son and in union with the Father. Furthermore, this is what he himself promised us—the life everlasting.-1 John 2:22-25.
True... true...
But can I help it if the New Testament was to the Jew first (The House of Israel) and then (included) to the Gentiles?
I don't quite agree... but more importantly, there are a group Jewish writers that don't agree:
Jeremiah 31 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, ” declares the LORD.
It very specifically separates the Covenant of Moses established in the Exodus and the New Covenant as confirmed by the Hebrew writer.
Hebrews 8:God finds fault with them when he says: “The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;9not like the covenant that I made with their ancestors, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I had no concern for them, says the Lord.10This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord
And again
Jeremiah 31: 33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Hebrews 10:16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”
and by default by Jewish John:
1 John 2: 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. (because it is written in our hearts) But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
If I have understood correctly, @Tumah wants to know how those who didn't witness Jesus' resurrection and miracles (mostly Gentiles) believed those who did witness them.True... true...
How do we know that they were not liars... he asks.
Eyes to See
Well-Known Member
If I have understood correctly, @Tumah wants to know how those who didn't witness Jesus' resurrection and miracles (mostly Gentiles) believed those who did witness them.
How do we know that they were not liars... he asks.
The first century Christians, unlike today, were granted to perform miracles, for the very reason of proving to the Jews that the Christians had Jehovah God's backing. The miracles died off after the first century because there was no longer a need for God to establish that he had indeed moved his blessing to the Christian congregation, Christ's followers.
If I have understood correctly, @Tumah wants to know how those who didn't witness Jesus' resurrection and miracles (mostly Gentiles) believed those who did witness them.
How do we know that they were not liars... he asks.
OOOHhhhhh....
Wouldn't it be the same way as someone of Jewish decent believes in the Exodus and says it is true even though they didn't witness it either?
Ok, so we can return to your original challenge. Assuming they were liars but not Moses, not Abraham, not any of the Jewish forefathers and prophets.
Returning to your previous post...
I admit that Christians often do say that but not that the original Christians did. You start by assuming this kind of thing happens from the beginning, but it seems unlikely because of counterposed statements about the law in protestant canon. One statement says there is much value in circumcision in every way. (Romans 3) Another says there is none. (1 Cor 7:19) How can both be there from the beginning when they seem opposite? This is assuming the first are liars and that its all constructed to deceive. It still doesn't work, since they are at odds with themselves. It doesn't work for a conspiracy, because the conspiracy opposes itself.
Eyes to See
Well-Known Member
OOOHhhhhh....
Wouldn't it be the same way as someone of Jewish decent believes in the Exodus and says it is true even though they didn't witness it either?
And yet the whole entire Jewish nation witnessed the parting of the Red Sea and the destruction of the Egyptian army. And they had the pillar of cloud by day, and the pillar of fire by night constantly before them.
They literally walked around with supernatural events transpiring all the time, including the miraculous mana, the bread from heaven, God provided to them for 40 years.
Yet, still they lacked faith.
So it isn't a thing about seeing with the eyes. The entire generation that left Egypt were left to die in the wilderness because, even after having seen with their own eyes everything that God did, they still lacked faith in him.
Think about that.
You could say that it was basically a whole new generation who didn't see it who entered into the promised land and confirmed that what their forefathers said, but did not believe, was not a lie.
Miracles aren't going to prove anything on their own. It is given to false prophets also to be able to do miracles to test the nation:
Deut: 13:2-5,
If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
Last edited:
Eyes to See
Well-Known Member
Many who took possession of the promised land were just children when leaving Egypt and saw the events. Though they must have been on in years and their children had already been born.
Last edited: