... and if you're wrong?

BilliardsBall · Sep 25, 2020

Tumah said:
What if the small handful of men on whose backs rest the entirety of Christianity were actually liars?

View attachment 43145

It seems to me that this is greater issue for Christianity that most other religions as Christianity rests almost entirely on the back of a previous code of law that directly commands not to have the very belief that Christianity requires. Unlike Islam which denies that there was a previous code of law different to itself, Christianity says, yes, there were laws that prohibited Christian belief, but those were changed.

And while the Jewish people point to an entire generation of ancestors who received this code of Law via Divine revelation, the Christian must rely on a handful of individuals who are said to have witnessed some miracles which convinced them that this original law had been uprooted.

I've sometimes seen Pascal's wager given as an argument to believe in Christianity. I may be biased, but it seems to me that based on Pastor Noel's words wagering on Christianity is already a pretty heavy risk.

Thoughts?

1) Not a "small handful" but 12 teams of authors, working with scribes, not even including apocryphal authors

2) Not based on authors alone but on Talmud, which affirms NT truth, and the lack of counter documents from Jews who saw the apostles and Jesus performing dozens of miracles across Israel, and refuting the leaders in person

3) Not "against the very belief required", Jesus said "Don't even think I came to abolish the Mosaic Law" and the NT affirms God's Law is perfection--it is almost 100% Tanakh Midrash

Tumah · Sep 25, 2020

Brickjectivity said:
If Christians are reasonably humble about things it should ameliorate most problems. Do we realize it, though?

I don't really see how that would ameliorate the point of my OP though.

I was able to find an online commentary by that author, mid 19th century. He was not happy about the Church of England and in particular didn't like infant baptism. This was a man who felt he could determine, from scripture, what baptism ought to be and was heavily into denouncing other people and institutions. You need not look these up but I provide them as references: (2Peter 2:11-12 is about people who blaspheme things they don't understand), (Jude 1:8 rebukes people who reject authority and heap abuse onto celestial beings), (James 3:10 blessing God incompatible with cursing men). So on the one hand he accuses the Church of England of unscriptural practice, but he doesn't seem familiar with scripture for himself. We owe him no allegiance.

The Views on Baptism of ... B. W. Noel. From His Essay “On the Union of the Church and State.”

In the document you've presented this person writes enthusiastically that Jesus must be absolutely divine or an idol. He places ignorant kitchen wives into a difficult position, doesn't he? Here he is telling us that we haven't been practicing our religion right, that we aren't fervent enough, that we have brought upon ourselves all kinds of trouble. He's getting a reaction out of us. He's brow-beating us and making us feel like we're ignorant fools. He's telling us that if we don't swallow a particular version of Jesus that we are calling Jesus and his men liars. It is an unfair gambit and manipulative. For similar reasons I dislike C.S. Lewis and Josh McDowell.

I assure you Brick, I hold no love for the man. That doesn't mean that I can't or shouldn't address a point that he makes on its own validity.

Tumah · Sep 25, 2020

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I have lots of thoughts, I assume you know where they are sourced from.

As that was the only question, I would offer that Jesus offered that in these days Christianity would be on shaky ground.

Regards Tony

That's not a great offering as it doesn't really address anything in the OP.

oldbadger · Sep 25, 2020

viole said:
Well, Jesus and His stories have been made up by Satan. He manipulated the witnesses, Paul and all the others. With the intention to bring so many as possible to perdition, by believing in the wrong God. After all, he is not called the "master deceiver" for nothing.

Didn't you notice a sudden change in attitude in God, if He was indeed the same God of the Jews? That was rather strange.

Ciao

- viole

You think that Paul was a witness?
You believe in Satan?

Oh well......

But Jesus the man with a mission was real enough. No problem there. He just wasn't a Christ is all.

Tumah · Sep 25, 2020

MNoBody said:
that is pretty much just a slight revision of what i said though.
but thanks.

The difference is more nuanced. You were implying that the effect that Christianity has mitigates the severity of their idolatry. Maimonides isn't doing that. He's only explaining that despite the severity of their existence, there is some benefit to it.

Tumah · Sep 25, 2020

adrian009 said:
Both Christianity and Judaism are diverse religions not limited to the fundamentalist or orthodox positions. It would be an error to believe B W Noel represents Christianity just as we shouldn’t assume orthodoxy represents Judaism.

We don't need to turn to Orthodox Judaism - and I suspect Pastor Noel wasn't when he made his statements - in order to frame the point of the OP.

But if you want to make those assumptions, then a contradiction certainly exists that may be impossible to resolve.

That's all.

Tumah · Sep 25, 2020

Estro Felino said:
We Christians know in our heart that Jesus is God.

I want to quote Monsignor Poma, a Catholic theologian from Italy who said : "Jesus has somehow eliminated the sacred because he has said that the sacred is the human"

When this priest says these things, I burst into tears, @Tumah .
I know it is difficult to understand. .but Jesus was God, because the Word, the Logos became flesh.

The thing is, what your describing may prove that daily affirmations are an effective method of convincing oneself about something. But they don't prove that the thing is true. If you would have grown up living among a community of people who believe in the existence of sky blue cows and you yourself imbibed it from youth through your parents, teachers and literature and then went on to reaffirm it to yourself every day - how strongly do you think you would believe in the existence of sky blue cows today? You'd know it in your heart. And that's why every religion knows the veracity of their religion in their hearts too.

It's important to be able to differentiate between the fact that you take as given and the tool you use to reinforce it.

Jayhawker Soule · Sep 25, 2020

Tumah said:
Curiously, you call it "our" faith in a post that makes it seem like we don't have the same faith at all. But i think that discussion is outside the bounds of this thread as well.

I'm sorry for the ambiguity. I probably should have used "faith system" rather than "faith".

Magic Man · Sep 25, 2020

Tumah said:
What if the small handful of men on whose backs rest the entirety of Christianity were actually liars?

View attachment 43145

It seems to me that this is greater issue for Christianity that most other religions as Christianity rests almost entirely on the back of a previous code of law that directly commands not to have the very belief that Christianity requires. Unlike Islam which denies that there was a previous code of law different to itself, Christianity says, yes, there were laws that prohibited Christian belief, but those were changed.

And while the Jewish people point to an entire generation of ancestors who received this code of Law via Divine revelation, the Christian must rely on a handful of individuals who are said to have witnessed some miracles which convinced them that this original law had been uprooted.

I've sometimes seen Pascal's wager given as an argument to believe in Christianity. I may be biased, but it seems to me that based on Pastor Noel's words wagering on Christianity is already a pretty heavy risk.

Thoughts?

1) There is no theistic god. Jesus probably existed, but he wasn't the son of god. He was just a regular person.

2) I don't think the early Christians were necessarily liars; they were probably just caught up in it because it was compelling and felt right to them.

3) The biggest problem with Pascal's Wager is that there are many more than 2 options. The "logic" of that idea rests on there either being this one particular version of god or no god at all. In reality, there are many other versions of gods possible. For instance, the real god could be different from Yahweh and hate it when people worship Yahweh but not mind so much when people believe in no god at all. In that case, an atheist is better off than a Yahweh-believer.

Tumah · Sep 25, 2020

Estro Felino said:
And now it is my turn to ask you a question... @Tumah .
Why is it so difficult to you, to understand how we believe that Jesus is God?

It's not difficult for me to understand at all. You were raised to believe it alongside your mother's milk and live within a wider community of like-minded believers. It makes sense why you'd believe something like that even if it doesn't really stand under scrutiny.

Estro Felino · Sep 25, 2020

Tumah said:
The thing is, what your describing may prove that daily affirmations are an effective method of convincing oneself about something. But they don't prove that the thing is true. If you would have grown up living among a community of people who believe in the existence of sky blue cows and you yourself imbibed it from youth through your parents, teachers and literature and then went on to reaffirm it to yourself every day - how strongly do you think you would believe in the existence of sky blue cows today? You'd know it in your heart. And that's why every religion knows the veracity of their religion in their hearts too.

It's important to be able to differentiate between the fact that you take as given and the tool you use to reinforce it.

Btw...reading Jews' replies here...it seems that they all believe we Christians rely on the AT..or that the AT is the main source of our faith.
Absolutely not.
Being raised Catholic ...I vividly recall the priest never reading the Bible to us.
At Catechism class we only had the Gospels book and the Catechism book.
The "Jewish" aspect of the origin of our faith is pretty irrelevant to us.

So...as for your question in the Opening Post : "that Jesus' divinity, Jesus being God violates the Law of the Ancient Testament (unlike Judaism and Islam):
My answer is : that Law is not our Law...because the Gospels are our Law and replaced any precept that contradicts them.

I hope I have been clear...if you need clearifications, just ask.

Muffled · Sep 25, 2020

I believe I lose everything bad and gain everything good. Sounds like a win to me.

Muffled · Sep 25, 2020

KAT-KAT said:
1. In my mind, and possibly in my mind only.... I do consider it quite plausible that God if he exists would frown on Christianity.

2. However, to give up Christianity if I was a Christian or even considering it or looking at it outside from it, and say that the Jewish people are correct... it'd be a much more difficult argument to sell me.

The first paragraph I stated would involve attacking away at the cohesive strengths when it comes to the evidence of Christianity. Then eventually we will get to questions of how to define God to begin with, etc.

The second paragraph, 2., involves saying "not this, but that" and making positive arguments proving not only for X faith, but also defining the ways it's valid while Y isn't.

I believe the proof is in the pudding. The apostle Thomas saw the wound marks on the risen Jesus and believed. For me it was fulfilled prophecy.

Muffled · Sep 25, 2020

Lyndon said:
And if you're wrong then you rejected your Messiah, two can play at this game!!

I believe seeing Jesus ought to be good enough when He returns but Jews are really stubborn.

Lyndon · Sep 25, 2020

so are Christians

Tumah · Sep 25, 2020

danieldemol said:
I have to call BS here, we simply don't have the signatures of an entire generation of people who witnessed divine revelation, instead we have the words of a small number of scribes making tall claims, which puts Judaism in the same basket as Christianity, so the OP question is just as valid to ask you, what if you are wrong?

There's always going to be that guy with this type of post.

It doesn't matter whether the claim of Judaism is true or not. Christianity believes it to be true, so it needs to follow a logical progression from that.

Tumah · Sep 25, 2020

viole said:
The problem is that if you rejected the right Messiah, especially the one who requires you to accept Him , or else... He might not care about your Judaism position.

Ciao

- viole

That argument is to broad because it applies vis a vis every other religion. In Judaism itself there is no such requirement nor is there indication that such an requirement will ever be made. A "Messiah" that makes such a requirement would first have to establish the truth of his claims to messiahship and his authority to make such a requirement. That's never happened, so we're good so far. But I feel like that's really getting outside the scope of this thread.

viole · Sep 25, 2020

Tumah said:
That argument is to broad because it applies vis a vis every other religion. In Judaism itself there is no such requirement nor is there indication that such an requirement will ever be made. A "Messiah" that makes such a requirement would first have to establish the truth of his claims to messiahship and his authority to make such a requirement. That's never happened, so we're good so far. But I feel like that's really getting outside the scope of this thread.

With all respect, I don't think so. If you are wrong, and you missed the Messiah, and that Messiah requires you to accept Him, and if you do not do it then you will suffer for ever, then you will pay an eternal price. Like me.

All the rest is irrelevant.

But of course, since Christian salvation theory is nonsensical, I doubt we both will have gnash our teeth, or dentures, for all eternity. Gell?

Ciao

- viole

Tumah · Sep 25, 2020

Musing Bassist said:
Does it? It seems to me you're assuming a premise which most Christians would reject.

In the eyes of the Christian there is no contradiction between the old and the new. Christianity is in contradiction to the old only as interpreted by a particular religious system which is claimed to have been given by God to Moses. But whether or not one accepts that claim is a matter of faith. I do not believe Moses received what Judaism claims he received. (The Oral Torah). I do not believe that the system we today call Judaism is the same as that which was given to the Hebrews in the Old Testament. If it is then Christianity would indeed be wrong. But if the Apostles did see what they say they saw then it's your religion that amounts to being but yet another Christ rejecting sect much like Islam.

My method is to not take into account extra-biblical Jewish teachings when debating with non-Jews unless it's relevant to the discussion.

I don't think what you're saying is 100% truthful. There is a contradiction between the laws of the Torah and the requirements of the NT. We can find plenty of Laws that the Torah requires that Christians believe are no longer in force. That's a contradiction.

Christians answer the contradiction by saying that the former were meant to foreshadow Jesus or were only temporary to show that man can't obey G-d, etc., etc..

in my OP, I point out that the strength of the claim to authenticity of the commandments of the Torah is greater than that of the NT, because the entire nation received Divine revelation proving to them the authenticity of Moses' prophecy at Mt. Sinai, while nobody saw G-d speaking to jesus. Instead, they rely on the claims of a handful of people. Rationally though, it should be the opposite. It should take a stronger proof to invalidate an established claim.

viole · Sep 25, 2020

oldbadger said:
You think that Paul was a witness?
You believe in Satan?

Oh well......

But Jesus the man with a mission was real enough. No problem there. He just wasn't a Christ is all.

Of course I do not believe in Satan, lol.

But if I would, knowing he is so cunning in deceiving people, I would ask myself: how do I know that this sort of branching off from tradition is not his work? How do you know?

Ciao

- viole

... and if you're wrong?

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Skanky Old Mongrel!

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Reaper of Conversation

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Believer in free will

Jesus in me

Jesus in me

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"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014

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