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The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?

exchemist

exchemist

Veteran Member
cataway said:
that may be true to you. the JW's are the only ones with a handle on that book.
you can and should expect your religion and many ,many others to be all but gone ,even removed . maybe yet in your life time .
religions have been a problem for governments for a long time ,they always run into conflict with each other . some times helping some times hindering what big government wants to do . you your self may of had misgivings on what government should do. perhaps you have even heard form the pulpit opinions being voiced on what should be done , or even who should be running a country .
Oh yes ................,it will bother you when she is gone .yet, it will happen.

frankly, i dont care if you dont like it.
Click to expand...
???
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
exchemist said:
OK, after 5 seconds on the web I find this, on Wiki:

"Many Biblical scholars[6][7] believe that "Babylon" is a metaphor for the pagan Roman Empire at the time it persecuted Christians, before the Edict of Milan in 313. Some biblical scholars recognize that “Babylon” is a cipher for Rome or the Roman Empire but believe Babylon is not limited to the Roman city of the first century. Craig Koester says outright that “the whore is Rome, yet more than Rome.”[8] It “is the Roman imperial world, which in turn represents the world alienated from God.”[9] James L. Resseguie says that Babylon “is not merely a representation of the Roman Empire.” It is “the city of this world” and a cipher for “the tyrannical ways of evil.”[10] Perhaps the phrase is specifically referencing some aspect of Rome's rule (brutality, greed, paganism). Some exegetes interpret the passage as a scathing critique of a servant people of Rome who do the Empire's bidding, interpreting that the author of Revelation was speaking of the Herodians—a party of Jews friendly to Rome and open to its influence, like the Hellenizers of centuries past—and later, corrupt Hasmoneans, where the ruler of Jerusalem or Roman Judea exercised his power at the pleasure of the Roman emperor, and was dependent on Roman influence, like Herod the Great in the Gospel of Luke.

In 4 Ezra,[11][12] 2 Baruch[13] and the Sibylline Oracles,[14] "Babylon" is a cryptic name for Rome.[15] Reinhard Feldmeier speculates that "Babylon" is used to refer to Rome in the First Epistle of Peter (1 Peter 5:13).[16] In Revelation 17:9 it is said that she sits on "seven mountains",[17] typically understood as the seven hills of Rome.[18][19][20][21][22] A Roman coin minted under the Emperor Vespasian (ca. 70 AD) depicts Rome as a woman sitting on seven hills.[23]

According to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, "The characteristics ascribed to this Babylon apply to Rome rather than to any other city of that age: (a) as ruling over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18); (b) as sitting on seven mountains (Revelation 17:9); (c) as the center of the world's merchandise (Revelation 18:3, 11–13); (d) as the corrupter of the nations (Revelation 17:2; 18:3; 19:2); (e) as the persecutor of the saints (Revelation 17:6)."[24]

According to Eusebius of Caesarea Babylon would be Rome or the Roman Empire:

"And Peter makes mention of Mark in his first epistle which they say that he wrote in Rome itself, as is indicated by him, when he calls the city, by a figure, Babylon, as he does in the following words: «The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, salutes you; and so does Marcus my son.»(1 Peter 5:13)"[25]"

From this link: Whore of Babylon - Wikipedia

Or, more generally on the subject of Revelation, there is this: Book of Revelation - Summary, Meaning, Study Bible Chapters Online

All you have to do is spend 15 minutes doing a little bit of reading around the subject.
Click to expand...
Thank you for taking the time to post the ^ above ^ however, support for the Bible is found in the Bible and Babylon the Great has nothing to due with the gone Roman Empire. Babylon the Great is that religious ' queen ' of Revelation 18:7 and Not the Roman Empire.
The process of elimination informs us that the ' kings ' are earth's rulers - Revelation 17:1-2
The process of elimination informs us that the ' merchants ' are the world's commercial empire.
The process of elimination informs us that ' she ' (Revelation 18:4 ) Babylon the Great that religious 'queen ' ( Revelation 18:7) is Not Rome or the gone Roman Empire.
Business men will mourn the loss of Babylon the Great (Revelation 18:11-19)
No angel throws the Roman Empire into the sea like a stone - Revelation 18:21-24
So, 15 minutes of reading Revelation chapters 17 and 18 shows Babylon the Great is Not the Roman Empire or Rome.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
metis said:
.................... Revelation, much like the entire Bible, is a book of faith that includes how we should be believing and living. You don't get that?..................
Click to expand...
I would like to take the liberty to say I get that the word Revelation means a revealing, and the Bible book of Revelation is a revealing about the coming future.
Revelation explains why we are invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations as mentioned at Revelation 22:2.
'Healing' to the point that No one will say, " I am sick....." - Isaiah 33:24.
'Healing to the point that even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26
The executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the wicked - Revelation 19:11-14; Isaiah 11:3-4
So, yes we should be believing and living by righteousness in order to be here to be part of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth.
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
exchemist said:
OK, after 5 seconds on the web I find this, on Wiki:

"Many Biblical scholars[6][7] believe that "Babylon" is a metaphor for the pagan Roman Empire at the time it persecuted Christians, before the Edict of Milan in 313. Some biblical scholars recognize that “Babylon” is a cipher for Rome or the Roman Empire but believe Babylon is not limited to the Roman city of the first century. Craig Koester says outright that “the whore is Rome, yet more than Rome.”[8] It “is the Roman imperial world, which in turn represents the world alienated from God.”[9] James L. Resseguie says that Babylon “is not merely a representation of the Roman Empire.” It is “the city of this world” and a cipher for “the tyrannical ways of evil.”[10] Perhaps the phrase is specifically referencing some aspect of Rome's rule (brutality, greed, paganism). Some exegetes interpret the passage as a scathing critique of a servant people of Rome who do the Empire's bidding, interpreting that the author of Revelation was speaking of the Herodians—a party of Jews friendly to Rome and open to its influence, like the Hellenizers of centuries past—and later, corrupt Hasmoneans, where the ruler of Jerusalem or Roman Judea exercised his power at the pleasure of the Roman emperor, and was dependent on Roman influence, like Herod the Great in the Gospel of Luke.

In 4 Ezra,[11][12] 2 Baruch[13] and the Sibylline Oracles,[14] "Babylon" is a cryptic name for Rome.[15] Reinhard Feldmeier speculates that "Babylon" is used to refer to Rome in the First Epistle of Peter (1 Peter 5:13).[16] In Revelation 17:9 it is said that she sits on "seven mountains",[17] typically understood as the seven hills of Rome.[18][19][20][21][22] A Roman coin minted under the Emperor Vespasian (ca. 70 AD) depicts Rome as a woman sitting on seven hills.[23]

According to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, "The characteristics ascribed to this Babylon apply to Rome rather than to any other city of that age: (a) as ruling over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18); (b) as sitting on seven mountains (Revelation 17:9); (c) as the center of the world's merchandise (Revelation 18:3, 11–13); (d) as the corrupter of the nations (Revelation 17:2; 18:3; 19:2); (e) as the persecutor of the saints (Revelation 17:6)."[24]

According to Eusebius of Caesarea Babylon would be Rome or the Roman Empire:

"And Peter makes mention of Mark in his first epistle which they say that he wrote in Rome itself, as is indicated by him, when he calls the city, by a figure, Babylon, as he does in the following words: «The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, salutes you; and so does Marcus my son.»(1 Peter 5:13)"[25]"

From this link: Whore of Babylon - Wikipedia

Or, more generally on the subject of Revelation, there is this: Book of Revelation - Summary, Meaning, Study Bible Chapters Online

All you have to do is spend 15 minutes doing a little bit of reading around the subject.
Click to expand...

Scholastic references to Rome as being Babylon are all too often taken from spurious sources (not canonical scripture)....they are a red herring IMO, taking the focus off the real symbol. As @URAVIP2ME has said.... "Babylon the Great" of Revelation 18:4-5......has nothing to do with the Rome Empire.
Satan's world has three major elements with which he controls most of mankind, (1 John 5:19) .....Politics....Commerce....and Religion......because it is the political figures of the earth and the merchants who lament her passing, Babylon the great is a religious element....one that God finds especially disgusting, depicting her as a "whore"...in bed with God's enemies.

"Babylon the great" or the "greater Babylon" is a reference to original Babylon which, according to scripture, is the springboard for all forms of false worship in the world. All of the world's religions can trace their beliefs back to Babylon.

Nimrod (Noah's great grandson) and his cronies were determined not to obey God's directive to fill the earth and spread abroad. He was described as a "mighty hunter before the Lord".....but his actions showed that was in opposition to God.

If you examine the Bible account, (Genesis 10-11) the evidence reveals that the Devil, lurking unseen for a chance to again instill his rebellious spirit into mankind (as he had done with Adam and Eve originally)......knew that if he could control this concentrated nucleus of the human race at this point by bringing in false religion he would go far in his effort to control later generations earth-wide. As it turned out, that rebellious spirit along with their false religious beliefs went into all the world when God confused their language, and played right into the devil's hands.
He has controlled most of mankind with false worship ever since.

Satan appealed to their selfishness, inducing in them a desire to make a celebrated name for themselves. Nimrod had just the right personality to be used as Satan’s tool to encourage others in this direction. Under him as self-appointed king they began to make great boasts in their opposition to God. They were led to believe that one great stronghold, the city of Babel with its great tower, would empower them to be free them from God's judgments.

Babylon is the place from which all false religious ideas sprang. It is a fitting symbol of the false religious empire created by the devil, since the common threads linking all false worship, can be traced back to this notorious city.
 
exchemist

exchemist

Veteran Member
URAVIP2ME said:
Thank you for taking the time to post the ^ above ^ however, support for the Bible is found in the Bible and Babylon the Great has nothing to due with the gone Roman Empire. Babylon the Great is that religious ' queen ' of Revelation 18:7 and Not the Roman Empire.
The process of elimination informs us that the ' kings ' are earth's rulers - Revelation 17:1-2
The process of elimination informs us that the ' merchants ' are the world's commercial empire.
The process of elimination informs us that ' she ' (Revelation 18:4 ) Babylon the Great that religious 'queen ' ( Revelation 18:7) is Not Rome or the gone Roman Empire.
Business men will mourn the loss of Babylon the Great (Revelation 18:11-19)
No angel throws the Roman Empire into the sea like a stone - Revelation 18:21-24
So, 15 minutes of reading Revelation chapters 17 and 18 shows Babylon the Great is Not the Roman Empire or Rome.
Click to expand...
This is incoherent. I'll stick with the opinion of scholars, I think.
 
cataway

cataway

Well-Known Member
exchemist said:
It's spelt lose.
Click to expand...
[lo͞os]
ADJECTIVE
  1. not firmly or tightly fixed in place;
hummm as in lost and needing help.
a life line ,has been thrown out to you ,take it. for fear that one day the line gets drawn back in and you are lost forever.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
cataway said:
your saying there are some rules in that ?
Click to expand...
Yes, namely that they are responsible for making the rules and they are binding with repercussions if one dares to go against them.

Stop playing coy as you know what's involved if you violate or go against their teachings, and I do as well from those I know who were in it and left for that and some other reasons.

Generally speaking, this is how cults usually operate-- little to no dissention allowed. If you can't even admit this, then there's another problem.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
cataway said:
[lo͞os]
ADJECTIVE
  1. not firmly or tightly fixed in place;
hummm as in lost and needing help.
a life line ,has been thrown out to you ,take it. for fear that one day the line gets drawn back in and you are lost forever.
Click to expand...
There you go again, violating Jesus' teaching of "judge ye not...". "Evaluate", yes; "judge", no, and yet you have again done the latter.

And then you say other denominations are not true "Christians"? Have you no clue how dishonest this is when you pick & choose which of Jesus' teachings to follow? Have you no shame in disobeying what Jesus clearly taught us what not to do? What hypocrisy.
 
exchemist

exchemist

Veteran Member
cataway said:
[lo͞os]
ADJECTIVE
  1. not firmly or tightly fixed in place;
hummm as in lost and needing help.
a life line ,has been thrown out to you ,take it. for fear that one day the line gets drawn back in and you are lost forever.
Click to expand...
Yes indeed. The line that has been thrown out to me is my reason. I have tried to make the best of use of that talent that I can. I find it a great source of strength, comfort and sometimes, as now, amusement.

To be honest, I find JWs possibly the silliest sect in Christendom, given their antagonism towards learning. In their company I'm quite used to being told, by people who can't spell, that I need to change my ways. :rolleyes:
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
URAVIP2ME said:
I would like to take the liberty to say I get that the word Revelation means a revealing, and the Bible book of Revelation is a revealing about the coming future.
Click to expand...
Which it did by telling those in the Church to basically keep the faith and all will work out for you.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
exchemist said:
I think the boredom may come from the usual JW contempt for learning.
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Plus in terms of what they have been taught. When I talked with my two sets of neighbors who left the JW's, this was one of the things that they finally came to realize that just boiled their blood. There's also a woman locally who is in charge of a JW rescue mission who was a former JW herself, and I've listened to her experiences and why she left.

I've been involved in ecumenism here in the Detroit area for over 40 years now, and I have been to a great many religious services in different churches, synagogues, mosques, and temples here and worldwide. So, what totally goes against my grain is any group that takes the "my way or the highway" approach, and the JW's are a classic example of that. Heck, I wouldn't even join the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II for that reason as well as I did look into it as I was disgusted with the fundamentalist Protestant church I grew up because of their anti-science position and blatant racism. Fortunately, decades later they have changed.

Anyhow, take care.
 
cataway

cataway

Well-Known Member
metis said:
Yes, namely that they are responsible for making the rules and they are binding with repercussions if one dares to go against them.

Stop playing coy as you know what's involved if you violate or go against their teachings, and I do as well from those I know who were in it and left for that and some other reasons.

Generally speaking, this is how cults usually operate-- little to no dissention allowed. If you can't even admit this, then there's another problem.
Click to expand...
theses kind of rules
" to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood" ? yes ,we have those rules ,but then so do you. right ? and adultery thats a rule one should not brake or maybe the one on fornication. which of these rules would get you kicked out of the church ?
 
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metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
cataway said:
theses kind of rules
" to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood" ? yes ,we have those rules ,but then so do you. right ? and adultery thats a rule one should not brake or maybe the one on fornication. which of these rules would get you kicked out of the church ?
Click to expand...
:rolleyes:
 
Misty Woods

Misty Woods

A Child of Our Almighty Creator Jehovah
Dogknox20 said:
Misty Woods Simple question....
QUESTION: "Did Jesus build on ROCK or on sand?" Did the Church Jesus established before he left earth; actually fail?! Again "Did Jesus lie?!" Are the scriptures a LIE!?

I can only presume you MUST reject the scriptures to say "Yes" so your reply is insult! Is it not arrogant to refuse to answer?!
Nothing about logic in my question it is all based on scripture! Don't feel bad; all protestants' must reject the scriptures or twist them to remain in protest All are spending effort trying to Restore Jesus' church! All spend effort trying to come to God' rescue and RE-Form the body Jesus that Jesus lost to Satan! AS IF...
Misty Woods as if Satan had somehow overpowered Jesus and Satan TOOK Jesus' holy body from Jesus! LOL All protestants must believe Jesus built on sand it's not just you!
Click to expand...
Bless your heart. You just cannot wrap your head around the simple logic, that if you continue to gnaw on your empty philosophical bone, that comes from mere milk, you will absolutely NEVER be mature enough to eat steak that comes from God's Kingdom. Considering all of your truly arrogant statements, that I have witnessed you replying to several people here on this site, I see no sincerely humble fruitage in you. However, Do know this Dogknox20, you do still have a small window of time to come to your senses, before your beloved Babylon the Great gets knocked off her keister. Rev.18:4 "And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people,+ if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins,+ and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven,+ and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.+ 6 Render to her even as she herself rendered,+ and do to her twice as much, yes, twice the number of the things she did;+ in the cup+ in which she put a mixture put twice+ as much of the mixture for her.+ 7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning.+ For in her heart she keeps saying, ‘I sit a queen,+ and I am no widow,+ and I shall never see mourning.’+ 8 That is why in one day her plagues+ will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire,+ because Jehovah* God, who judged her, is strong.+"
 
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