Christian views on life, death, and the resurrection

Scott C. · Sep 14, 2020

Another thread motivated me to post this. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I learned that I may have some incorrect assumptions about what other Christians believe. I'm asking here for concise and simple explanations of what you believe in regard to the soul, the spirit, the resurrection, a resurrected body, and a couple of other things. I could make this post very long quoting scripture after scripture and expecting you to decipher what I believe from those verses. Rather, I'll try to explain briefly and I ask that you do the same. This is an honest to goodness attempt for me to better understand.

I believe...

I lived as a "spirit" with God before I was born.
When I came to earth my spirit "entered" (for lack of a better term) my physical body.
The spirit and body united, now in mortality, constitute my "soul".
When I die, my spirit will live on. The dead body stays here.
I will live in the spirit world where I wait for my resurrection.
Every person ever to live on earth will be resurrected.
The resurrection means the spirit is reunited with the physical body permanently and forever.
A resurrected physical body is different from a mortal body. They are both physical, but a resurrected body is perfect, immortal, and without illness. ( I suppose we won't know exactly what it's like until we get one).
We are then immortal souls, with a spirit clothed in a glorious physical resurrected body.
Jesus Christ was the first person to ever be resurrected from the dead. When he "gave up the ghost" his spirit left his body. He went to the spirit world. After three days (Friday to Sunday) he was resurrected from the dead. He appeared to Mary, the Apostles and others. He had some of them touch and feel to see that he indeed was not a spirit, but was physical. His physical body was no more in the tomb. His body rose from the dead to reunite with his spirit. His physical resurrection broke the bands of death and made the resurrection a reality for everyone.
For reasons not necessarily clear, as spirits we want a physical body. We were anxious to come to earth to get a body. When we die and are in the spirit world, we will anxiously await the time when we can rise again clothed in an immortal and glorious physical body.

Ok, that went a little longer than planned. If you're willing to play along, I'd like a similar explanation on how you believe this goes. I'm not debating here, just discussing. Again, please do not reprint the Bible in your response. Rather, explain in your own simple words. I have a short attention span.

Pipiripi · Sep 15, 2020

Hi.
Of all the topics in scripture, the subject of the Spirit, soul and afterlife is one of the most intriguing ones. It is also one of the most heavily misunderstood topics, as well, and one that Satan will use to his advantage in the end times. But like most doctrines in the Bible, so many today view the subject of Biblical life and what happens after death as "something not really all that important to understand. After all, all you have to do is believe". "God will work out all of the other minor things." Have you heard that line of thinking before? I know I sure have.

What is Man Exactly? How Was he Created by God?

Genesis 2:7 (NKJV)...'And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) ...'And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.'

As you can see here, a "living being" and a "living soul" are the same exact thing. Also, in this verse is the entire equation of life. And did you notice the word "became", instead of "was given"? VERY important point! So let's look at the equation of life:

Dust of the ground (Body) +
The breath of life (Spirit) =
A living being (Soul/Man)

If you need more information, let me know.

Scott C. · Sep 15, 2020

Pipiripi said:
Hi.
Dust of the ground (Body) +
The breath of life (Spirit) =
A living being (Soul/Man)

If you need more information, let me know.

In your view...

What is the breath of life (Spirit)? Does it live after death, separate from the dust (body)?
Is there a physical resurrection?
In what form do we continue forever?

Deeje · Sep 15, 2020

Scott C. said:
Another thread motivated me to post this. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I learned that I may have some incorrect assumptions about what other Christians believe. I'm asking here for concise and simple explanations of what you believe in regard to the soul, the spirit, the resurrection, a resurrected body, and a couple of other things. I could make this post very long quoting scripture after scripture and expecting you to decipher what I believe from those verses. Rather, I'll try to explain briefly and I ask that you do the same. This is an honest to goodness attempt for me to better understand.

I would like to respond by using your list as the reasons for my own beliefs.....in blue.

I believe...

I lived as a "spirit" with God before I was born.
I do not believe that I lived in any form before my human birth. I am the product of the gene pool of both my parents. My life began at conception. Life can result from a rape, so how could conception be caused by God implanting a life that resulted from an act of violence?

When I came to earth my spirit "entered" (for lack of a better term) my physical body.
My birth caused me to take my first breath as a human "soul". The "spirit" in me is what keeps me breathing.
I am a living soul only when I breathe. When my last breath leaves my body, I cease to exist as a soul. I am no longer conscious of anything...anywhere.

The spirit and body united, now in mortality, constitute my "soul".
The soul is mortal because it's continued existence is sustained by breathing.
It needs water and food to function as God created us to do, providing all that we needed to sustain those lives forever. Death ends that function. The dust receives us back, as we await a time for the promised resurrection.

When I die, my spirit will live on. The dead body stays here.
At death my spirit expires and the soul I was, is no more.
I will not experience any consciousness in death.

I will live in the spirit world where I wait for my resurrection.
I will "sleep" in the grave, awaiting the call from Jesus Christ to come forth.
I will not have any consciousness of the passing of time.

Every person ever to live on earth will be resurrected.
Jesus promises to raise both the "righteous and the unrighteous" from their graves, most of whom died in ignorance. The end of this world will see the death of the majority of its inhabitants because they have rejected God and have failed to obey the teachings of his son. Jesus liked these days to the time of Noah. There will be no resurrection for these ones who have ignored God's warning.
The incorrigibly wicked will not receive a resurrection, but will be consigned to "Gehenna"....eternal death.

The resurrection means the spirit is reunited with the physical body permanently and forever.
The resurrection will mean that all will have the opportunity to live forever on earth with all the other resurrected ones, including family members who died before I did. Mankind will have one final test at the end of the Kingdom's 1,000 year rule, and only then, if we pass that test, will we qualify for everlasting life, which will still be in mortal flesh.

A resurrected physical body is different from a mortal body. They are both physical, but a resurrected body is perfect, immortal, and without illness. ( I suppose we won't know exactly what it's like until we get one).
We are then immortal souls, with a spirit clothed in a glorious physical resurrected body.
There are two resurrections spoken about in the Bible.....one is to heaven, which means a spiritual body for those chosen to rule with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom, and only those raised as spirit beings can be immortal. The general resurrection is for everyone else, who will enjoy life on earth in their mortal flesh, just as Adam and his wife were. Our bodies will not succumb to sickness, aging or death in the new world to come.

Jesus Christ was the first person to ever be resurrected from the dead.
Jesus was not the first person raised from the dead....Jesus himself raised three people from death....a widow's son, Jairus' daughter and Lazarus. All were raised back to this life in mortal flesh.
Jesus' resurrection was very different, however.....he was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit"...meaning that the body he sacrificed was no more, God took it because it was prophesied that his flesh would not be left in the tomb. His spiritual resurrection meant that he had the ability to materialize in a human body, as spirit creatures had done through history. Flesh and blood cannot live outside of the earth's atmosphere. Spirit creatures can cross over between realms. Angelic always messengers appeared to God's earthly servants in human form.

When he "gave up the ghost" his spirit left his body. He went to the spirit world. After three days (Friday to Sunday) he was resurrected from the dead. He appeared to Mary, the Apostles and others. He had some of them touch and feel to see that he indeed was not a spirit, but was physical. His physical body was no more in the tomb. His body rose from the dead to reunite with his spirit. His physical resurrection broke the bands of death and made the resurrection a reality for everyone.
There are no such things as "ghosts". The KJV incorrectly translates "spirit" as "ghost".
Jesus was dead in his tomb for three days and nights , just as he said he would be. When God raised him from the dead, he "appeared" to many people during the 40 days that he lingered here to strengthen his apostles, but he did not stay with them as he had done for the previous three and a half years. He was no longer a fleshly man. His death and resurrection opened the way for his fellow Kingdom rulers to experience the same death and resurrection as he had, as spirit beings, allowing them access to the spirit realm which would now be their permanent home.

For reasons not necessarily clear, as spirits we want a physical body. We were anxious to come to earth to get a body. When we die and are in the spirit world, we will anxiously await the time when we can rise again clothed in an immortal and glorious physical body.
We are designed to be humans not angels. God has a spirit family that existed long before the universe was created. We have a desire to live where God created us to live...here on earth....in paradise conditions. Our bodies will still be mortal because we are material beings. We need external aids to keep us alive. The body we can look forward to gaining will be sinless.....not subject to the awful things we experience now.

Ok, that went a little longer than planned. If you're willing to play along, I'd like a similar explanation on how you believe this goes. I'm not debating here, just discussing. Again, please do not reprint the Bible in your response. Rather, explain in your own simple words. I have a short attention span.

FWIW.....there you have it....from the JW perspective.

Brian2 · Sep 15, 2020

Scott C. said:
Another thread motivated me to post this. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I learned that I may have some incorrect assumptions about what other Christians believe. I'm asking here for concise and simple explanations of what you believe in regard to the soul, the spirit, the resurrection, a resurrected body, and a couple of other things. I could make this post very long quoting scripture after scripture and expecting you to decipher what I believe from those verses. Rather, I'll try to explain briefly and I ask that you do the same. This is an honest to goodness attempt for me to better understand.

I believe...

I lived as a "spirit" with God before I was born.
When I came to earth my spirit "entered" (for lack of a better term) my physical body.
The spirit and body united, now in mortality, constitute my "soul".
When I die, my spirit will live on. The dead body stays here.
I will live in the spirit world where I wait for my resurrection.
Every person ever to live on earth will be resurrected.
The resurrection means the spirit is reunited with the physical body permanently and forever.
A resurrected physical body is different from a mortal body. They are both physical, but a resurrected body is perfect, immortal, and without illness. ( I suppose we won't know exactly what it's like until we get one).
We are then immortal souls, with a spirit clothed in a glorious physical resurrected body.
Jesus Christ was the first person to ever be resurrected from the dead. When he "gave up the ghost" his spirit left his body. He went to the spirit world. After three days (Friday to Sunday) he was resurrected from the dead. He appeared to Mary, the Apostles and others. He had some of them touch and feel to see that he indeed was not a spirit, but was physical. His physical body was no more in the tomb. His body rose from the dead to reunite with his spirit. His physical resurrection broke the bands of death and made the resurrection a reality for everyone.
For reasons not necessarily clear, as spirits we want a physical body. We were anxious to come to earth to get a body. When we die and are in the spirit world, we will anxiously await the time when we can rise again clothed in an immortal and glorious physical body.

Ok, that went a little longer than planned. If you're willing to play along, I'd like a similar explanation on how you believe this goes. I'm not debating here, just discussing. Again, please do not reprint the Bible in your response. Rather, explain in your own simple words. I have a short attention span.

I guess I have roughly similar views as a Christian protestant, with come variations that may not matter much, but the most important variation is probably the LDS idea that we humans existed in heaven before we came to earth. Definitely not a Biblical concept.

Katzpur · Sep 15, 2020

@Scott C., I can't add a thing to your perfectly stated explanation.

Katzpur · Sep 15, 2020

Brian2 said:
I guess I have roughly similar views as a Christian protestant, with come variations that may not matter much, but the most important variation is probably the LDS idea that we humans existed in heaven before we came to earth. Definitely not a Biblical concept.

The Bible doesn't explicitly state when God created our spirits, whether it was long before we came to earth or at the moment our physical bodies were conceived by our parents. It only says that He is the Father of our spirits.

Scott C. · Sep 15, 2020

Brian2 said:
I guess I have roughly similar views as a Christian protestant, with come variations that may not matter much, but the most important variation is probably the LDS idea that we humans existed in heaven before we came to earth. Definitely not a Biblical concept.

So by roughly similar views, do you believe we do have a spirit inside (again for lack of a better word) the physical body. When we die, we continue as a conscious being, a spirit. We will one day resurrect, which means the spirit and physical body reunite. We will live as physical (and spiritual) beings forever?

Pipiripi · Sep 15, 2020

Scott C. said:
In your view...

What is the breath of life (Spirit)? Does it live after death, separate from the dust (body)?
Is there a physical resurrection?
In what form do we continue forever?

If you read 1Corinthians 15 completely then you find the answer. It is exactly how Paul describe it.
And also read Ezekiel 37:1-14. By verse 14 God is saying that it is HIS SPIRIT, that means that we don't have an Spirit being trapped in us. The only spirit that can enter a human body is the demons and the Holy Spirit.

Katzpur · Sep 15, 2020

Pipiripi said:
If you read 1Corinthians 15 completely then you find the answer. It is exactly how Paul describe it.
And also read Ezekiel 37:1-14. By verse 14 God is saying that it is HIS SPIRIT, that means that we don't have an Spirit being trapped in us. The only spirit that can enter a human body is the demons and the Holy Spirit.

Interesting that you'd use the word "trapped" to refer to the breath of life that God breathes into us. If we do not have a spirit, by what means do we continue to live and breathe? Are we solely physical beings? Do you not believe we have a spiritual component?

Brickjectivity · Sep 15, 2020

As an originalist I have found myself at odds with most other Christians on this issue. It seems that most believe in ghosts, don't believe that the spiritual means contemplative like I do. They think that living for an afterlife is a righteous action, and I don't. I try never to misrepresent the beliefs of other Christians, but neither do I consider myself not to be a Christian person despite disagreeing with most. I also think most Christians claiming to be biblical are far from it, and I include LDS, JW, Baptist, Pentecostals, Catholics and the whole lot. CS Lewis drowned in WWI and what came back was bad theology. Honestly if its down to biblical understanding then all is lost. In my opinion. Lost. Lost. Lost.

Katzpur · Sep 15, 2020

Brickjectivity said:
As an originalist I have found myself at odds with most other Christians on this issue. It seems that most believe in ghosts, don't believe that the spiritual means contemplative like I do. They think that living for an afterlife is a righteous action, and I don't. I try never to misrepresent the beliefs of other Christians, but neither do I consider myself not to be a Christian person despite disagreeing with most. I also think most Christians claiming to be biblical are far from it, and I include LDS, JW, Baptist, Pentecostals, Catholics and the whole lot. CS Lewis drowned in WWI and what came back was bad theology. Honestly if its down to biblical understanding then all is lost. In my opinion. Lost. Lost. Lost.

Interesting what you don't believe, Brickjectivity, but what exactly do you believe? If you say you're a Christian, I'll be the first to take your word for it, but I'd like to know specifically what you believe with regards to the OP.

Scott C. · Sep 15, 2020

Pipiripi said:
If you read 1Corinthians 15 completely then you find the answer. It is exactly how Paul describe it.
And also read Ezekiel 37:1-14. By verse 14 God is saying that it is HIS SPIRIT, that means that we don't have an Spirit being trapped in us. The only spirit that can enter a human body is the demons and the Holy Spirit.

I see that Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses seem to share the idea that there is no "spirit person" that inhabits the physical body. I'm not aware of other Christian groups that share that belief, but I will wait and see who else responds. (I don't mean to imply that Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses are the same. I'm sure there are many differences. I just see a similarity on this point).

Brickjectivity · Sep 15, 2020

Katzpur said:
Interesting what you don't believe, Brickjectivity, but what exactly do you believe? If you say you're a Christian, I'll be the first to take your word for it, but I'd like to know specifically what you believe with regards to the OP.

Come to think of it I shouldn't have posted this. Its not very helpful, so I'll explain my opinons.

I'll keep the explanation short and heterodoxical with little explanation. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." describes the beginning of Israel and the Jews. The stars are the children of Abraham. The Sun 'Rules' the day, because its not our physical Sun. It represents the Torah most likely, and the Moon is Israel or the Jews or some sort of moral power. It rules not through war machines and threats but through moral leadership. Such Jesus refers to whenever he refers to Genesis in the gospels. Such is his opinion, too, I think.

Thus we have light and dark separated, evil no longer ruling. Darkness in the depths of the Earth is death, and the living prefer the light.

Death and sin are equated in the gospels. Life and repentance are equated. There is no other life of concern, and Christians become part of Christ denying themselves. Stories of death and resurrection are about this, not about physicality, not about preserving individuals for all of eternity. I am not supporting my opinions in this just stating them; but already you should see I diverge very far from all of the aforementioned groups each of which focuses upon individual lives continuing. Most think that Christianity is pointless if we don't have eternal individual existences. They also almost universally believe that each individual life is infinitely valued or highly valued by God so as to preserve it even after death. To me this is entirely from wishful thinking and reading into the text.

'Glory' refers to the changing of this world we live in to be like it ought to be. It analogous to a creative light, although in scripture it both reveals what is, destroys what shouldn't be and creates. The best imagery for glory is when one picture fades in as another fades out. Glory therefore is truth, but it is a truth that replaces some other truth that is fading away and disappearing.

'Worship' refers to the fellowship of people, the forgiving of wrongs, the union of all. It is the purpose of all liturgies all sacrifices and the only way to please God. At communions we share food, but if we have a grievance this must first be taken care of. The Torah is highly ritualized and specifies how to keep the peace. I don't fully understand the purposes of rituals and hope they are not meant to deceive anyone. Christians have a ritual called Eucharist.

'LORD' refers to the covenant in Israel which reflects the higher covenant of all people, God being discovered later and through this covenant as well as through similar means in other societies. God, being invisible or spirit, is discovered only through the fruits of the spirit. The characteristics of God are only described analogously.

'God' respects no individuals -- at all. Period.

Jesus death is the example for each Christian. He gives up himself, his very personality, his identity. He becomes no one. This is life for the Christian, and not to do this is death.

The above is how I understand, from scripture, the Christian position. I did not mean to derail the conversation which really was asking for the most common Christian positions. I was coming back here to delete my post, but since Katzpur replied I kind of felt like I should put it all forward. Obviously I don't expect anybody to agree.

Katzpur · Sep 15, 2020

Brickjectivity said:
Come to think of it I shouldn't have posted this. Its not very helpful, so I'll explain my opinons.

I'll keep the explanation short and heterodoxical with little explanation. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." describes the beginning of Israel and the Jews. The stars are the children of Abraham. The Sun 'Rules' the day, because its not our physical Sun. It represents the Torah most likely, and the Moon is Israel or the Jews or some sort of moral power. It rules not through war machines and threats but through moral leadership. Such Jesus refers to whenever he refers to Genesis in the gospels. Such is his opinion, too, I think.

Thus we have light and dark separated, evil no longer ruling. Darkness in the depths of the Earth is death, and the living prefer the light.

Death and sin are equated in the gospels. Life and repentance are equated. There is no other life of concern, and Christians become part of Christ denying themselves. Stories of death and resurrection are about this, not about physicality, not about preserving individuals for all of eternity. I am not supporting my opinions in this just stating them; but already you should see I diverge very far from all of the aforementioned groups each of which focuses upon individual lives continuing. Most think that Christianity is pointless if we don't have eternal individual existences. They also almost universally believe that each individual life is infinitely valued or highly valued by God so as to preserve it even after death. To me this is entirely from wishful thinking and reading into the text.

'Glory' refers to the changing of this world we live in to be like it ought to be. It analogous to a creative light, although in scripture it both reveals what is, destroys what shouldn't be and creates. The best imagery for glory is when one picture fades in as another fades out. Glory therefore is truth, but it is a truth that replaces some other truth that is fading away and disappearing.

'Worship' refers to the fellowship of people, the forgiving of wrongs, the union of all. It is the purpose of all liturgies all sacrifices and the only way to please God. At communions we share food, but if we have a grievance this must first be taken care of. The Torah is highly ritualized and specifies how to keep the peace. I don't fully understand the purposes of rituals and hope they are not meant to deceive anyone. Christians have a ritual called Eucharist.

'LORD' refers to the covenant in Israel which reflects the higher covenant of all people, God being discovered later and through this covenant as well as through similar means in other societies. God, being invisible or spirit, is discovered only through the fruits of the spirit. The characteristics of God are only described analogously.

'God' respects no individuals -- at all. Period.

Jesus death is the example for each Christian. He gives up himself, his very personality, his identity. He becomes no one. This is life for the Christian, and not to do this is death.

The above is how I understand, from scripture, the Christian position. I did not mean to derail the conversation which really was asking for the most common Christian positions. I was coming back here to delete my post, but since Katzpur replied I kind of felt like I should put it all forward. Obviously I don't expect anybody to agree.

Thank you for that. No, I don't expect anyone will agree with you, but it's really beside the point whether we agree or not. Mostly, I wonder how you came to your conclusions.

Brickjectivity · Sep 15, 2020

Katzpur said:
Thank you for that. No, I don't expect anyone will agree with you, but it's really beside the point whether we agree or not. Mostly, I wonder how you came to your conclusions.

First I'd have to write a book, then I'd have to carve it down into a page, then add, then carve. Finally I might have a readable presentation, but that presentation could do harm to the faith of others not by being untrue but by being true.

I'm a little uncertain about whether to do that. People are fragile and easily harmed. Knowledge is power-like in its expression, and power is innately destructive. If your butt looks fat, should I tell you it looks fat? Probably not. Its not that the truth is wrong but that you may be harmed. If I don't explain how I've come to my conclusions you can more easily dismiss them and continue on doing your best with what you know. Besides, if you were going to agree with me then the spirit of God in you would make my conclusions resonate for you. You'd be feeling "Yes this sounds right to me."

Katzpur · Sep 15, 2020

Brickjectivity said:
First I'd have to write a book, then I'd have to carve it down into a page, then add, then carve. Finally I might have a readable presentation, but that presentation could do harm to the faith of others not by being untrue but by being true.

I'm a little uncertain about whether to do that. People are fragile and easily harmed. Knowledge is power-like in its expression, and power is innately destructive. If your butt looks fat, should I tell you it looks fat? Probably not. Its not that the truth is wrong but that you may be harmed. If I don't explain how I've come to my conclusions you can more easily dismiss them and continue on doing your best with what you know. Besides, if you were going to agree with me then the spirit of God in you would make my conclusions resonate for you. You'd be feeling "Yes this sounds right to me."

Okay, fair enough.

Brian2 · Sep 16, 2020

Katzpur said:
The Bible doesn't explicitly state when God created our spirits, whether it was long before we came to earth or at the moment our physical bodies were conceived by our parents. It only says that He is the Father of our spirits.

I would say that if Adam was a spirit from heaven put into a human body then Genesis would have said it instead of just saying that God formed man from dirt and breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life.
Also this passage would not make sense unless the life/spirit in us comes down from generation to generation.
Hebrews 7:10, NIV: "because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor."
God, because He knows the future, certainly could foreknow each of us just as He foreknows what He is going to do and what will happen.
LDS seems built on adding to the Bible. I guess that is why "revelation" is so important in the LDS. But when this revelation contradicts what the Bible teaches us then it is not revelation from God.

Brian2 · Sep 16, 2020

Scott C. said:
So by roughly similar views, do you believe we do have a spirit inside (again for lack of a better word) the physical body. When we die, we continue as a conscious being, a spirit. We will one day resurrect, which means the spirit and physical body reunite. We will live as physical (and spiritual) beings forever?

Matt 10:28 tells us that our soul lives on after our body dies.
There is a place that the soul goes to await the resurrection (sheol in the OT or hades in the NT). It also appears that since Jesus resurrection those who are dead in Christ may go straight to be with the Lord.
Phil 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Just what the resurrection body is is yet to be seen. Sounds sort of a physical/spiritual body that is controlled by our spirit. But yes the soul and body reunite and the body gets transformed to an immortal and incorruptible body.

Brian2 · Sep 16, 2020

Scott C. said:
I see that Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses seem to share the idea that there is no "spirit person" that inhabits the physical body. I'm not aware of other Christian groups that share that belief, but I will wait and see who else responds. (I don't mean to imply that Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses are the same. I'm sure there are many differences. I just see a similarity on this point).

Yes I think they share a history (and so some theology) in the Millerite Adventist movement of the 19th century.

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