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Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I doubt that God just closed His eyes to what was going to happen in His creation.
Do you think that God is going to force people to believe or do what is right? I don't.
Do you think that God did not know that sickness and suffering would happen?

Of course He would know that.
Do you think that God could have made a world where sickness and suffering did not happen even if Adam did sin? Does sickness and suffering make God cruel?
As far as sickness and suffering goes, God knew what would happen if they sinned. Your question is does that make Him cruel? No. Because they obviously wanted to keep living, took the consequences. Did not kill themselves out of anger or retaliation after their actions. He didn't torture them. God let them live on as they wanted to. It is an interesting question, however. To be perhaps further examined.
Are you saying that religious leaders have not promoted the idea of eternal literal physical and mental torture for the unsaved for centuries as a consequence of their actions, especially if he knew their individual fates in advance? This is not the same as death promised by God for Adam and Eve.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Since nothing like this has ever been uttered by @Brian2 or myself, I’m pretty sure it was the Jehovah Witnesses and not us that convinced you of this.



God KNEW what would happen if they sinned, and He knew what would happen if they didn’t.

I'm not sure how you arrived to the former conclusion without concluding the latter.



Of course not! That’s not Christianity’s God, that’s a WT God.

A WT God doesn’t know our future, much less His own. So of course He’s going to “wring his hands” and say “Oh, what am I going to do?”! Why? Because such a God is clueless! He's vastly smaller in size, scope, grandeur and majesty than the God we find in the Christian bible.

How long will the WT's God remain clueless? Until the WT say differently! We all know that if the next issue of the WT claims "new light" and states God is all knowing, every single Jehovah Witness, all 8 million of you, will fall in line. In fact, you will wonder how you could have ever believed otherwise.



Then please tell us what is “wrong” about my perception of your belief because from what you and others have said, and from my numerous studies with JW’s, it seems pretty “right” to me.

You yourself stated it would be “cruel” of God to have allowed us to be born if He knew we would be defective! I cannot fathom the reasoning behind that. I have a cousin who is severely disabled. She cannot eat without assistance. She cannot talk. She cannot walk. She is blind. She wears an adult diaper. She does feel and she can hear and smell. Her mother knew she would be severely disabled before she was born but decided to go to term because she loved her baby.

It amazes me that you would think this was an “ungodly” act, but that is exactly what you are telling me when you say God would not have created mankind if He knew we would be “defective”. Yes, you say, He would have aborted mankind immediately!!

And then we have the other end of the spectrum where you tell us it is cruel to give someone life in punishment, but far less cruel to kill them instead. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and nothing you have posted so far has enlightened us as to why it would.



My goodness you do jump around and I’m still trying to get answers to the OP!! You're not trying to change the subject, are you? I'd really like to know what was convincing in the "kill rather than punish", "abort rather than be defective" line of reasoning that made you reflect and say "I am privileged to know God and from that based on what I've learned from my study of the Bible and its reasoning with Jehovah's Witnesses".

I do not see their reasoning as you do, but I'd like to know why, and for that I'll need a bit more of the rationale behind the reason.



Not only what would happen IF they sinned, but IF they didn’t. He not only sees what WILL happen but what COULD happen. He foresees and presides over any and all potential possibilities. Let’s not forget who created our entire reality, everything that was, everything that is, and everything that, from our perspective, has yet to be including space and time. The Christian God is no Zeus or All Father Odin but beyond the scope of anything we could dream or imagine. He can bring what is to naught, and what is not to be. He is not confined by space and time, He does not live in the star system Pleiades, but He does set the foundation and borders of our universe and any other.



“He did not know in advance” is simply another way to say God is completely ignorant at certain times...in fact all times future. It is something JW’s like to say, but it’s not anything we find in scripture. Please see @Brian2’s posts on the subject. Then explain why demons know the future whereas God does not. (Acts 16:16:40).



Yes, He did.



It makes no sense that Witnesses cannot answer the 3 simple dilemmas put forth in the OP.

It makes no sense that God doesn’t know His creation. Quite simply, if God doesn’t know the end of Time then He doesn’t know the ends of Space either, and things have seriously gotten out of His hands.

It makes no sense that you cannot tell me the order of initial creation. Did God create Time and Space first, wait a fraction and then create Jesus so that he was “…’in’ the beginning”?

It makes no sense that God would prefer to kill sinners rather than allow them to live in punishment, thus allowing wardens of our prisons to show more grace and mercy than God.

It makes no sense that God would prefer to abort rather than create mankind simply because they would be flawed, thus allowing my cousin to show more grace and mercy than God.

And it makes no sense that we should add jots and tittles or any other scurrilous addition to scripture in order to make our doctrines more "biblical" (Col 1:17).



What the WT says doesn't add up. With scripture the math is impeccable.



That He is, but let’s remember…the WT’s version of a “just God” kills rather than punishes, and aborts rather than creates . Thus, according to the WT, He is not just by deed but just by name only.

Nothing you’ve told us so far gives any inclination that Jehovah Witnesses would run our birthing or penal systems “justly” but "cruelly". If this is a misstatement of your belief, tell us why.
Talk about jump around. Anyway, have a good night as the future awaits.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
in deeded mankind was given free will . it has to mean God would not know . if he did know then it would mean things would ''have'' to happen . he however can make thing happen
Did I say yes already? I hope so, but if not, yes again!
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I doubt that God just closed His eyes to what was going to happen in His creation.
Do you think that God is going to force people to believe or do what is right? I don't.
Stopping there for a moment, I'll say that predestination is a different word from foreknowledge. Be that as it may, it is a different topic. Getting back to "a" God, or God, naturally you say there are three persons equal always 'there,' OF God. Right? But can you explain what the following text means? (I was actually listening to Handel's Messiah today...the Hallelujah chorus... Which reminded me of the conversation.)
Deuteronomy 10:17 - (King James Bible)
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
NIV: 2 Chronicles 2:5
"The temple I am going to build will be great, because our God is greater than all other gods.
And of course, we want to hear Jesus'words when he said his God was greater than he was.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Are you saying that religious leaders have not promoted the idea of eternal literal physical and mental torture for the unsaved for centuries as a consequence of their actions, especially if he knew their individual fates in advance? This is not the same as death promised by God for Adam and Eve.

In the pictures we get in the Bible of what happens to the unsaved, suffering is certainly a part of that. It seems to be a torment for them, but I don't know that the Church has taught that it involves torture. Maybe I am wrong.
The Church also has the idea that our souls (as in the part of us that does survive the death of the body Matt 10:28 :) ) come from God and so are deathless and go on forever. They also have the idea that God is our life and so absence from the presence or life of God is actually what the second death means, just as the first death of the body is the absence of the spirit from the body.
Nevertheless I do not know for sure that the torment is going to go on forever and am undecided for sure on the issue, but knowing that whatever it will be will be a just and good judgement from God and not a cruel one.
I don't think we actually know what the death promised to Adam and Eve was.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Stopping there for a moment, I'll say that predestination is a different word from foreknowledge. Be that as it may, it is a different topic. Getting back to "a" God, or God, naturally you say there are three persons equal always 'there,' OF God. Right? But can you explain what the following text means? (I was actually listening to Handel's Messiah today...the Hallelujah chorus... Which reminded me of the conversation.)
Deuteronomy 10:17 - (King James Bible)
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
NIV: 2 Chronicles 2:5
"The temple I am going to build will be great, because our God is greater than all other gods.
And of course, we want to hear Jesus'words when he said his God was greater than he was.

Jesus is a man now since He stepped into the creation. He has a God but that started when He became a man (see Psalm 22:10) I doubt that will be a full answer but is no doubt a start.
Jesus did say that His Father is greater than He is and that would be true since Jesus was a man, a servant of God, and God was sitting on the throne of heaven. Jesus does not say that God is better than He is however, better would imply a different nature, but He does not say that. The prehuman Jesus took His God nature with Him when He became a man. He was God in bodily form as a man, or commonly called the Son of God.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jesus is a man now since He stepped into the creation. He has a God but that started when He became a man (see Psalm 22:10) I doubt that will be a full answer but is no doubt a start.
Jesus did say that His Father is greater than He is and that would be true since Jesus was a man, a servant of God, and God was sitting on the throne of heaven. Jesus does not say that God is better than He is however, better would imply a different nature, but He does not say that. The prehuman Jesus took His God nature with Him when He became a man. He was God in bodily form as a man, or commonly called the Son of God.
So when Jesus prayed to God when he was on the earth, was it that his flesh and spirit and soul were not God?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
In the pictures we get in the Bible of what happens to the unsaved, suffering is certainly a part of that. It seems to be a torment for them, but I don't know that the Church has taught that it involves torture. Maybe I am wrong.
The Church also has the idea that our souls (as in the part of us that does survive the death of the body Matt 10:28 :) ) come from God and so are deathless and go on forever. They also have the idea that God is our life and so absence from the presence or life of God is actually what the second death means, just as the first death of the body is the absence of the spirit from the body.
Nevertheless I do not know for sure that the torment is going to go on forever and am undecided for sure on the issue, but knowing that whatever it will be will be a just and good judgement from God and not a cruel one.
I don't think we actually know what the death promised to Adam and Eve was.
They died, didn't they? No warning of hell(fire). Or heaven. No promise of anything but death if they didn't listen. And Adam blamed God for giving Eve to him. Things were not so good on the earth after that. That's a pretty big punishment but many people don't think that way. They think it's just the way things 'are' because of evolution. If God promised eternal torture or eternal bliss to Adam and Eve, I am sure in my mind and heart He would have told them so. I also think they knew they were alive. No knowledge of life before or after their existence.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
In the pictures we get in the Bible of what happens to the unsaved, suffering is certainly a part of that. It seems to be a torment for them, but I don't know that the Church has taught that it involves torture. Maybe I am wrong.
The Church also has the idea that our souls (as in the part of us that does survive the death of the body Matt 10:28 :) ) come from God and so are deathless and go on forever. They also have the idea that God is our life and so absence from the presence or life of God is actually what the second death means, just as the first death of the body is the absence of the spirit from the body.
Nevertheless I do not know for sure that the torment is going to go on forever and am undecided for sure on the issue, but knowing that whatever it will be will be a just and good judgement from God and not a cruel one.
I don't think we actually know what the death promised to Adam and Eve was.
There is the suffering that we experience, no matter how faithful we are, and there are allegorical pictures of the experiences of people spoken of in the Bible.
About Adam and Eve, God told them they would die. So unless something was seriously wrong with them mentally, they knew they were alive. Most of us know that death is not our "friend." Chiklren that are normal know that death is not something they look forward to. They don't need to know about religious teaching about what happens after death. Most don't want it.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
So when Jesus prayed to God when he was on the earth, was it that his flesh and spirit and soul were not God?

The Father and Son would have communicated before Jesus became a man.
They did the same when Jesus was a man and lived as all men should, in faith and trust of God. And when Jesus became a man He also had a God who happened to be His Father. (again Psalm 22:10)
There are a number of places in the Psalms and elsewhere in the OT where we see the relationship between the Messiah and His God while He was on earth and the earnest prayers the Messiah would be praying. It does not mean that Jesus did not have the same divine nature of His Father it means that Jesus was also a man who needed help from God.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
They died, didn't they? No warning of hell(fire). Or heaven. No promise of anything but death if they didn't listen. And Adam blamed God for giving Eve to him. Things were not so good on the earth after that. That's a pretty big punishment but many people don't think that way. They think it's just the way things 'are' because of evolution. If God promised eternal torture or eternal bliss to Adam and Eve, I am sure in my mind and heart He would have told them so. I also think they knew they were alive. No knowledge of life before or after their existence.

They died without knowing exactly what death was or that there would be a final judgement they would have to face or etc etc. I know that WT wants to preempt God's judgement and say that Adam and Eve have already received their eternal judgement but that is a denial of Revelations where it says that all people will appear before God to be judged.
Revelation from God on issues was ongoing and it certainly seems that it was not all told to Adam and Eve.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
1Kings 19:11 The Lord said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the Lord, for the Lord is about to pass by.”
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. 12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. 13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.
Then a voice said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

It is interesting that God was in the gentle whisper that Elijah heard.

I believe that is why it helps to be cloistered away from distractions. Howeve the silence at a Quaker meeting never helped me any. I heard God a lot better in charismatic worship settings.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I find that verse to be strange.
I can see God wherever look, any direction. But then, I'm a Deist.

Yes, I can see God in Jesus, as in everything.... every thing.
And Yes, I can hear God in every sound.
But then, I'm a Deist.

I believe you are talking about the minds eye not the visual one.
 

coconut theology

coconuts for Jesus
OR:

33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” NWT
Citing again:

John 10:24 KJB - Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

John 10:25 KJB - Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:26 KJB - But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 10:27 KJB - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 KJB - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 KJB - My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:30 KJB - I and my Father are one.​

This speaks of at-one-ment, of heart, purpose, not of persons.

John 10:31 KJB - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.​

They did this, because, Jesus just claimed full equality with God, that is, the person of the Father. He had done this before [John 10:25 KJB, "... I told you, and ye believed not ..."], with the same results:

John 5:18 KJB - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 8:57 KJB - Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

John 8:58 KJB - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8:59 KJB - Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.​

This would have been blasphemy [Leviticus 24:14; 1 Kings 21:10 KJB], and subject for stoning, had it not been that Jesus was who He said He is.

John 10:32 KJB - Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Jesus, then knowing that they do not believe His words, mercifully points them to His actions, deeds, the very miracles wrought, the lives of people delivered from satan, sin, disease, death. Many say that actions speak louder than words, and therefore, Jesus turned up the volume for them, that these willingly deaf might hear, and have no excuse for their own evil present course:

John 10:33 KJB - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.​

They unwittingly condemn themselves by acknowledging that the works of Jesus were "good works". They should have recognized then, the source of them, and recognize, that Jesus' actions, were matching His words, and have drawn the conclusion by following the result back to their source and see that the words were undeniably true, yet this they did not do, because they sought to justify themselves, and to justify their idea of what the Messiah/Christ ought to have been, and do. Jesus, having already told them [1], and shown them [2], that He was equal to God, that is the person of the Father, and did the very "good works" that the Father does, now attempts to show them from scripture [3] itself [rather than His present words, and present actions], who He is:

John 10:34 KJB - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

John 10:35 KJB - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;​

Now, Jesus cites the scripture [OT] itself, specifically Psalms 82:1,6, in its context [see also that the priests and rulers of the people are called by God, "gods" [Exodus 4:16, 7:1, 22:28; Psalms 138:1; Daniel 8:11,25, 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJB]], which in context, meant "children of the Most High" [Psalms 82:6 KJB], all "brethren" [Matthew 23:8; Hebrews 2:11 KJB], equally Kings and Priests, under God:

Psalms 82:1 KJB - A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.​

There is a perfect parallelism:

[1A] "... God ..."

[1B] "... he ..."

[2A] "... standeth in ..."

[2B] "... judgeth among ..."

[3A] "... the congregation of the mighty ..."

[3B] "... the gods ..."

Psalms 82:2 KJB - How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

Psalms 82:3 KJB - Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

Psalms 82:4 KJB - Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

Psalms 82:5 KJB - They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

Psalms 82:6 KJB - I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.​

There is a perfect parallelism:

[1A] "I have said ..."

[1B] "... and ..."

[2A] "... Ye are ..."

[2B] "... all of you are …"

[3A] "... gods …"

[3B] "... children of the most High."

Psalms 82:7 KJB - But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Psalms 82:8 KJB - Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.​

In so doing, Jesus refers to God Himself, being in the midst of the His people, while He being the true just Judge, they being unjust judges, God defending the poor, fatherless, needy, etc, they turning away from them. The very moment that Jesus cites this reference to the Psalm, is exactly the moment of the contrast between Himself, His words and actions, and their [the Jews, leaders, Pharisees, etc] words and actions. So, Jesus' [1] words demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were, [2] His actions, the "good works", demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were, and even [3] the very scripture itself in Psalms 82, demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were. However, more than this, Jesus is drawing a greater argument from the text, notice:

John 10:36 KJB - Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?​

Jesus, said "I am the Son of God", and in John 10:30 KJB, said, "I and my Father are one", which the "Jews" rightly understood Him, to make the claim that He was indeed equal to God, the person of the Father, when they said [John 10:33 KJB], "... thou ... makest thyself God."

Is Jesus backtracking from making the claim to be God [not the person of the Father, but that of the Son], or backtracking from the claim that He was equal with God [person of the Father]? No. He is making a perfect air-tight case, from scripture, which cannot be broken [John 10:35 KJB], from the 'lesser' to the 'greater'.

Jesus cited Psalms 82, saying that even the scripture called God's own people, "gods", meaning that they were to be just judges, even "children of the most High", and thus were all 'sons of God' in that sense, called to be like Him in character, words, actions, etc. Jesus had claimed to be the actual "Son of God", who from eternity was equal with the Father. Jesus is saying, since the scripture called the adopted persons 'gods', 'children of the most High', which none of them argued with, how much more then does the actual un-adopted, original, eternal, only begotten heir have claim to such, as "Son of God", and they all knew of the person from the OT, see "my fellow" [Zechariah 13:7 KJB], the person at the bush with Moses [Exodus 3 & 4, 23:21 KJB], with Joshua [Joshua 5:13-15 KJB], etc, etc, and the coming "son" [Isaiah 9:6] who was given from the Father.

Therefore, which had the greater claim to the designation and responsibility, the actual Son of God, or those who were later called into the family of God, through adoption, whom were all called "gods", "children of the most High", "sons of God" [Genesis 6:2,4; Hosea 1:10; Ezekiel 16:21 KJB, etc]? How then could they stone Jesus, since the Messiah was the real Son of God, and they all only called and adopted? They would to have as soon stone themselves before they could rightfully stone Jesus for the rightful claim, which was superior in every way to their claim to such. Jesus is not saying that He is not God, nor lessening the arguments and words beforehand made, nor backtracking to save Himself, He, instead is making the perfect unarguable case, from scripture that He is who He said He is, drawing from the 'lesser' to the 'greater' example. Jesus finishes by pointing back again to His actions, which were fulfilling the very scriptures:

John 10:37 KJB - If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

John 10:38 KJB - But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 10:39 KJB - Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,​

They did not care about all three means by which Jesus sought to show them, because, they were unjust, and proved themselves so and stubbornly wanted to remain so. They could not refute Jesus' words, actions or scripture.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Citing again:

John 10:24 KJB - Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

John 10:25 KJB - Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:26 KJB - But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 10:27 KJB - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 KJB - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 KJB - My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:30 KJB - I and my Father are one.​

This speaks of at-one-ment, of heart, purpose, not of persons.

John 10:31 KJB - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.​

They did this, because, Jesus just claimed full equality with God, that is, the person of the Father. He had done this before [John 10:25 KJB, "... I told you, and ye believed not ..."], with the same results:

John 5:18 KJB - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 8:57 KJB - Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

John 8:58 KJB - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8:59 KJB - Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.​

This would have been blasphemy [Leviticus 24:14; 1 Kings 21:10 KJB], and subject for stoning, had it not been that Jesus was who He said He is.

John 10:32 KJB - Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Jesus, then knowing that they do not believe His words, mercifully points them to His actions, deeds, the very miracles wrought, the lives of people delivered from satan, sin, disease, death. Many say that actions speak louder than words, and therefore, Jesus turned up the volume for them, that these willingly deaf might hear, and have no excuse for their own evil present course:

John 10:33 KJB - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.​

They unwittingly condemn themselves by acknowledging that the works of Jesus were "good works". They should have recognized then, the source of them, and recognize, that Jesus' actions, were matching His words, and have drawn the conclusion by following the result back to their source and see that the words were undeniably true, yet this they did not do, because they sought to justify themselves, and to justify their idea of what the Messiah/Christ ought to have been, and do. Jesus, having already told them [1], and shown them [2], that He was equal to God, that is the person of the Father, and did the very "good works" that the Father does, now attempts to show them from scripture [3] itself [rather than His present words, and present actions], who He is:

John 10:34 KJB - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

John 10:35 KJB - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;​

Now, Jesus cites the scripture [OT] itself, specifically Psalms 82:1,6, in its context [see also that the priests and rulers of the people are called by God, "gods" [Exodus 4:16, 7:1, 22:28; Psalms 138:1; Daniel 8:11,25, 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJB]], which in context, meant "children of the Most High" [Psalms 82:6 KJB], all "brethren" [Matthew 23:8; Hebrews 2:11 KJB], equally Kings and Priests, under God:

Psalms 82:1 KJB - A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.​

There is a perfect parallelism:

[1A] "... God ..."

[1B] "... he ..."
[2A] "... standeth in ..."

[2B] "... judgeth among ..."
[3A] "... the congregation of the mighty ..."

[3B] "... the gods ..."
Psalms 82:2 KJB - How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

Psalms 82:3 KJB - Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

Psalms 82:4 KJB - Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

Psalms 82:5 KJB - They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

Psalms 82:6 KJB - I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.​
There is a perfect parallelism:

[1A] "I have said ..."

[1B] "... and ..."
[2A] "... Ye are ..."

[2B] "... all of you are …"
[3A] "... gods …"

[3B] "... children of the most High."

Psalms 82:7 KJB - But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Psalms 82:8 KJB - Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.​

In so doing, Jesus refers to God Himself, being in the midst of the His people, while He being the true just Judge, they being unjust judges, God defending the poor, fatherless, needy, etc, they turning away from them. The very moment that Jesus cites this reference to the Psalm, is exactly the moment of the contrast between Himself, His words and actions, and their [the Jews, leaders, Pharisees, etc] words and actions. So, Jesus' [1] words demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were, [2] His actions, the "good works", demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were, and even [3] the very scripture itself in Psalms 82, demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were. However, more than this, Jesus is drawing a greater argument from the text, notice:

John 10:36 KJB - Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?​

Jesus, said "I am the Son of God", and in John 10:30 KJB, said, "I and my Father are one", which the "Jews" rightly understood Him, to make the claim that He was indeed equal to God, the person of the Father, when they said [John 10:33 KJB], "... thou ... makest thyself God."

Is Jesus backtracking from making the claim to be God [not the person of the Father, but that of the Son], or backtracking from the claim that He was equal with God [person of the Father]? No. He is making a perfect air-tight case, from scripture, which cannot be broken [John 10:35 KJB], from the 'lesser' to the 'greater'.

Jesus cited Psalms 82, saying that even the scripture called God's own people, "gods", meaning that they were to be just judges, even "children of the most High", and thus were all 'sons of God' in that sense, called to be like Him in character, words, actions, etc. Jesus had claimed to be the actual "Son of God", who from eternity was equal with the Father. Jesus is saying, since the scripture called the adopted persons 'gods', 'children of the most High', which none of them argued with, how much more then does the actual un-adopted, original, eternal, only begotten heir have claim to such, as "Son of God", and they all knew of the person from the OT, see "my fellow" [Zechariah 13:7 KJB], the person at the bush with Moses [Exodus 3 & 4, 23:21 KJB], with Joshua [Joshua 5:13-15 KJB], etc, etc, and the coming "son" [Isaiah 9:6] who was given from the Father.

Therefore, which had the greater claim to the designation and responsibility, the actual Son of God, or those who were later called into the family of God, through adoption, whom were all called "gods", "children of the most High", "sons of God" [Genesis 6:2,4; Hosea 1:10; Ezekiel 16:21 KJB, etc]? How then could they stone Jesus, since the Messiah was the real Son of God, and they all only called and adopted? They would to have as soon stone themselves before they could rightfully stone Jesus for the rightful claim, which was superior in every way to their claim to such. Jesus is not saying that He is not God, nor lessening the arguments and words beforehand made, nor backtracking to save Himself, He, instead is making the perfect unarguable case, from scripture that He is who He said He is, drawing from the 'lesser' to the 'greater' example. Jesus finishes by pointing back again to His actions, which were fulfilling the very scriptures:

John 10:37 KJB - If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

John 10:38 KJB - But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 10:39 KJB - Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,​

They did not care about all three means by which Jesus sought to show them, because, they were unjust, and proved themselves so and stubbornly wanted to remain so. They could not refute Jesus' words, actions or scripture.
Interesting way of reasoning, but it is impossible to kill God in any shape or form.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The Father and Son would have communicated before Jesus became a man.
They did the same when Jesus was a man and lived as all men should, in faith and trust of God. And when Jesus became a man He also had a God who happened to be His Father. (again Psalm 22:10)
There are a number of places in the Psalms and elsewhere in the OT where we see the relationship between the Messiah and His God while He was on earth and the earnest prayers the Messiah would be praying. It does not mean that Jesus did not have the same divine nature of His Father it means that Jesus was also a man who needed help from God.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Father and Son communicated before Jesus (the Son) became a man. Now the question for you is: did he stay in heaven when he came to the earth?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
They died without knowing exactly what death was or that there would be a final judgement they would have to face or etc etc. I know that WT wants to preempt God's judgement and say that Adam and Eve have already received their eternal judgement but that is a denial of Revelations where it says that all people will appear before God to be judged.
Revelation from God on issues was ongoing and it certainly seems that it was not all told to Adam and Eve.
So when do you think mankind knew what happens when they die?
 

coconut theology

coconuts for Jesus
So when do you think mankind knew what happens when they die?
This:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

Right there, combined with the reversal of:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
It is why Solomon could later say what he said, as so many others:


Powerpoint - https://archive.org/download/sincerely-dead/Sincerely Dead.pptx
 
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