Protestant and Catholic theological differences.

Hello everyone, this is my first time posting on this site.

I'd like to bring up the topic of Mary and how Protestants and Catholics differ on her significance not only in scripture but also tradition and how we interact with our theology because of this.

As a protestant, I do not pay respects to Mary, or ask her to pray on my behalf.
Scripture says she is humble, blessed, righteous, loyal, a servant to the father and to christ. I understand that in some debates, protestants may not see the significance that Mary actually has in scripture, the figure Abraham plays a large role in the bible for example and we can usually appreciate him for who he is, but the same isn't afforded to Mary.
I do believe she plays just as much a role as Abraham, however there are many things i disagree with too. I don't consider her to be the queen of heaven, or that she is or was ever in a relationship-like dynamic with the holy spirit. Catholics have told me that their tradition tells them that Mary was born perfect and never sinned, this would unfortunately mean that she has unknowingly fulfilled the law of Moses. Some have said that Mary is the figure who crushes the serpents head.

I don't want to put words into anyones mouth, so if you have an argument you would put forward, i'd love to engage with that.

Blake Place said:

Hello everyone, this is my first time posting on this site.

I'd like to bring up the topic of Mary and how Protestants and Catholics differ on her significance not only in scripture but also tradition and how we interact with our theology because of this.

As a protestant, I do not pay respects to Mary, or ask her to pray on my behalf.
Scripture says she is humble, blessed, righteous, loyal, a servant to the father and to christ. I understand that in some debates, protestants may not see the significance that Mary actually has in scripture, the figure Abraham plays a large role in the bible for example and we can usually appreciate him for who he is, but the same isn't afforded to Mary.
I do believe she plays just as much a role as Abraham, however there are many things i disagree with too. I don't consider her to be the queen of heaven, or that she is or was ever in a relationship-like dynamic with the holy spirit. Catholics have told me that their tradition tells them that Mary was born perfect and never sinned, this would unfortunately mean that she has unknowingly fulfilled the law of Moses. Some have said that Mary is the figure who crushes the serpents head.

I don't want to put words into anyones mouth, so if you have an argument you would put forward, i'd love to engage with that.

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As a protestant, I do acknowledge and respect Mary (though I don't ask her to pray on my behalf).

Imagine the knowledge that you could be stoned for being pregnant out of wedlock and the "words" that are spoken about her (while we get concerned if someone speaks bad about us). What faith that she would believe the impossible to be possible (while we struggle for the smallest of issues). What boldness to come to her fiancee and trust God (while we struggle in just sharing Jesus).

So, I do respect her very highly as an example of faith (Follow them who by faith and patience inherit the promises).

Of course, I disagree with other attributes given to her but accentuate that which is still true.

And kudos for your first post!

Welcome to the forum,

Thank you for starting this interfaith thread.
"Mary" is a very good topic to start with.

Well...we Catholics believe Mary was chosen because she was the Immaculate Conception.
Which is a not that easy dogma to explain.
I like to explain it with these words : " She chose to love. And by loving she conceived human nature without original sin ".

I'm 72 and I've been around the block. I've "been" a Southern Baptist, a Pentecostal Holiness, a Nazarene, an Assembly of God, a Missouri Synod-Lutheran, and a Charismatic Renewal Roman Catholic.
IMO, talking about the Virgin Mary is as dangerous as talking about "mothers". We can talk about Jack's mother, and say anything we want. We can talk about your mother, and I'll try to be polite, but I gotta be honest too. But, by Gawd, if you say one word about my mother, it better be respectful or I'll kick yer arse. Get my drift?

Terry Sampson said:

I'm 72 and I've been around the block. I've "been" a Southern Baptist, a Pentecostal Holiness, a Nazarene, an Assembly of God, a Missouri Synod-Lutheran, and a Charismatic Renewal Roman Catholic.

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Dang, brother! It's a miracle you can still walk....just sayin'.

Blake Place said:

Hello everyone, this is my first time posting on this site.

I'd like to bring up the topic of Mary and how Protestants and Catholics differ on her significance not only in scripture but also tradition and how we interact with our theology because of this.

As a protestant, I do not pay respects to Mary, or ask her to pray on my behalf.
Scripture says she is humble, blessed, righteous, loyal, a servant to the father and to christ. I understand that in some debates, protestants may not see the significance that Mary actually has in scripture, the figure Abraham plays a large role in the bible for example and we can usually appreciate him for who he is, but the same isn't afforded to Mary.
I do believe she plays just as much a role as Abraham, however there are many things i disagree with too. I don't consider her to be the queen of heaven, or that she is or was ever in a relationship-like dynamic with the holy spirit. Catholics have told me that their tradition tells them that Mary was born perfect and never sinned, this would unfortunately mean that she has unknowingly fulfilled the law of Moses. Some have said that Mary is the figure who crushes the serpents head.

I don't want to put words into anyones mouth, so if you have an argument you would put forward, i'd love to engage with that.

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First post and rating of plus 2 already. I'm not sure what the rating system means or who does it however.
I'm a protestant I guess and I was brought up as a Catholic. No doubt we Protestants don't give Mary her due and that may be because of the exaggerated exaltation that we see the Catholics have placed on her. But maybe she will be sitting next to Jesus in His Kingdom.
It certainly is an interesting thing where a lot of Catholic tradition has actually come from. But it certainly seems elevated far above what tradition should be and now some traditions are things one has to believe to be a bona fide Catholic because the Pope has spoken from his chair. (eg you have to believe that Mary was taken to heaven bodily when she died )
I remember growing up and my parents (mother especially I would say) got us kids on our knees many nights saying some decades of the rosary before bed.
I could not help by compare that prayer with the words of Jesus in the KJV about repetitive prayer (Matt 6:7). But of course other translations give a slightly different meaning.

Estro Felino said:

Welcome to the forum,

Thank you for starting this interfaith thread.
"Mary" is a very good topic to start with.

Well...we Catholics believe Mary was chosen because she was the Immaculate Conception.
Which is a not that easy dogma to explain.
I like to explain it with these words : " She chose to love. And by loving she conceived human nature without original sin ".

Click to expand...

It says that she was conceived without original sin, not that she conceived without original sin. But I think that part of the reasoning is that she herself had to sinless in order to be allowed to conceive Jesus.
The Catholic Church has some interesting ways to look at things.

In Catholic faith Mary, like all other descendants of Adam, had to be redeemed through Christ. We honor her especially for two biblical reasons: (a) She is the mother of Jesus who is Lord and God. (b) According to Luke 1:26-38 she is the first one to hear the good news of Jesus' identity and to say, "Be it done to me according to your word"—thus becoming the first disciple to meet Jesus' standard of hearing the word of God and doing it (see Luke 8:21). We believe that God gave her special privileges, but these are related to the graces of discipleship given through Christ and in no way divinize her. All believers in Christ are delivered by his grace from the sin of Adam: All believers in Christ will be raised bodily from the dead. Catholics believe that Mary, the first one to profess belief in Christ as revealed by an angel, was through Christ's grace the first to be totally freed from Adam's sin (conceived without sin) and the first to be raised bodily (assumed into heaven). While we acknowledge that these doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary are not found in the New Testament, we hold them as consonant with the picture in Luke of Mary as the first one to believe, and with the picture in John where she is especially honored as Jesus hangs on the cross.
One has to separate popular Marian piety, the Cult of Mary, and the theology of Mary. There is one mediator, Jesus Christ, who Mary professes, and continues to lead believers to him, she has no claims on her own. One way to see Mary is the first disciple.
I would add that there are interesting books regarding Mary within ecumenical collaboration .

Brian2 said:

It says that she was conceived without original sin, not that she conceived without original sin. But I think that part of the reasoning is that she herself had to sinless in order to be allowed to conceive Jesus.
The Catholic Church has some interesting ways to look at things.

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We have never divinized her, btw.
She has never performed miracles and in fact, during the Cana Wedding it is her who asks Jesus to perform his first miracle.
That underlines she is not a deity.

Estro Felino said:

I like to explain it with these words : " She chose to love. And by loving she conceived human nature without original sin

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Our Lord was exempt from original sin by virtue of being God, not because the Blessed Virgin could by her own power prevent original sin. Likewise, the Blessed Virgin was exempt from original sin again not by her own power but by an extraordinary act of God. God had willed Our Lady to be free from all trace of sin (original and actual) due to her unique privilege of being predestined to become the Mother of God.

Estro Felino said:

That underlines she is not a deity.

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But by claiming our Lord's conception as being immaculate by an act of will of Our Lady, you've implicitly granted her divine powers in her own right.

Blake Place said:

As a protestant, I do not pay respects to Mary

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I understand your reasoning, however, interesting as to when this came about within Protestantism as it does not seem to be the mind of the original Reformers.
Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation. (Sermon, March 11, 1523).Who possess a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Our prayer should include the Mother of God.. .What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!" You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor.. .We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her...He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary. (Personal Prayer Book, 1522). Martin Luther

John Calvin: “there have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage (Mt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company…And besides this our Lord Jesus Christ is called the firstborn. This is not because there was a second or third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second.” (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562)

Ulrich Zwingli: “I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.”.” (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. comp., V6,1 P. 639

So, if the Catholic Church believes in this doctrine and the reformers believed in this doctrine–by whose authority and when was this doctrine rejected by all the Protestant Churches?

Musing Bassist said:

But by claiming our Lord's conception as being immaculate by an act of will of Our Lady you've implicitly granted her divine powers in her own right.

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The Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Mary, not Jesus.

pcarl said:

The Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Mary, not Jesus.

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I know. I did not mean to refer to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. In this case I meant that Our Lord's conception was immaculate in the sense that he too was free from original sin.

In retrospect, I agree with you in that I should have just said "free from original sin" over immaculate.

Musing Bassist said:

I know. I did not mean to refer to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. In this case I meant that Our Lord's conception was immaculate in the sense that he too was free from original sin.

In retrospect, I agree with you in that I should have just said "free from original sin" over immaculate.

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But it's a very different thing.
Jesus is God, so God cannot sin a priori.

Mary became our Lady after she ascended to Heaven. She was a woman, a human like me and you.

Musing Bassist said:

In retrospect, I agree with you in that I should have just said "free from original sin" over immaculate.

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Jesus' conception is usually referred to as the 'virginal conception'.

pcarl said:

In Catholic faith Mary, like all other descendants of Adam, had to be redeemed through Christ. We honor her especially for two biblical reasons: (a) She is the mother of Jesus who is Lord and God. (b) According to Luke 1:26-38 she is the first one to hear the good news of Jesus' identity and to say, "Be it done to me according to your word"—thus becoming the first disciple to meet Jesus' standard of hearing the word of God and doing it (see Luke 8:21). We believe that God gave her special privileges, but these are related to the graces of discipleship given through Christ and in no way divinize her. All believers in Christ are delivered by his grace from the sin of Adam: All believers in Christ will be raised bodily from the dead. Catholics believe that Mary, the first one to profess belief in Christ as revealed by an angel, was through Christ's grace the first to be totally freed from Adam's sin (conceived without sin) and the first to be raised bodily (assumed into heaven). While we acknowledge that these doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary are not found in the New Testament, we hold them as consonant with the picture in Luke of Mary as the first one to believe, and with the picture in John where she is especially honored as Jesus hangs on the cross.
One has to separate popular Marian piety, the Cult of Mary, and the theology of Mary. There is one mediator, Jesus Christ, who Mary professes, and continues to lead believers to him, she has no claims on her own. One way to see Mary is the first disciple.
I would add that there are interesting books regarding Mary within ecumenical collaboration .

Click to expand...

I feel like i agree with everything you've said so far, although there are some things i may be a little confused about. Jesus refers to John the apostle as his closest friend, and throughout the gospel of John, instead of simply naming John, the author [John], puts himself above others by saying the one whom jesus loved. This isn't an issue, but i wonder why Mary wasn't afforded this? It could be assumed, and that's fine, just interesting.
I do wholeheartedly agree that she is the mother of the second person of the trinity, and removing the content of her motherhood will remove the content of Christs divinity.
She is a pivotal role in christian theology and should be acknowledged moreso in reformed churches as such.

I've spoken to lutherans in the past and they also believe that when the angel called Mary blessed, that it was then that she was rid of original sin. I don't have an issue with that entirely but i do have a point to raise.
The father saw only one righteous man in the entire region in the old testament at one time and that was Abraham, Abraham was not perfect, he was not without original sin but he was righteous. And the promises that came through Abraham would eventually allow for all of Israel to exist and eventually be the seed that Joseph and Mary come from.

Jesus came to be with the sinners, he would touch people with disease, show love to the worst of society, be immersed around culturally horrible people like tax collectors. I just want to know why Mary who is already considered righteous, humble, and so on... needs to be cleansed further, as if she wasn't good enough or capable enough then.

"One has to separate popular Marian piety, the Cult of Mary, and the theology of Mary." i'll be honest, i'm very new to this content and had no idea what these were.

"There is one mediator, Jesus Christ"
amen.

Estro Felino said:

We have never divinized her, btw.
She has never performed miracles and in fact, during the Cana Wedding it is her who asks Jesus to perform his first miracle.
That underlines she is not a deity.

Click to expand...

I'm a little confused here, to be a saint i thought you must have performed miracles.
Not only that but i've heard catholics suggest Mary has done many miracles.
Can you explain what you mean a little more?
Although i do understand that she is not a deity or considered equal with christ in the eyes of most catholics. however i have heard some concerning concepts that she is in relationship with the holy spirit or that she has a specific role in the salvation of all christians. obviously i haven't heard those statements here, but yeah. concerning.

Musing Bassist said:

I know. I did not mean to refer to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. In this case I meant that Our Lord's conception was immaculate in the sense that he too was free from original sin.

In retrospect, I agree with you in that I should have just said "free from original sin" over immaculate.

Click to expand...

I'm a little confused here, i would consider Christs birth to be even more incredible than Mary's, this is our lord, his sacrifice allows us to be in union with the father. Christs role is more than any creation.

pcarl said:

I understand your reasoning, however, interesting as to when this came about within Protestantism as it does not seem to be the mind of the original Reformers.
Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation. (Sermon, March 11, 1523).Who possess a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Our prayer should include the Mother of God.. .What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!" You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor.. .We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her...He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary. (Personal Prayer Book, 1522). Martin Luther

John Calvin: “there have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage (Mt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company…And besides this our Lord Jesus Christ is called the firstborn. This is not because there was a second or third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second.” (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562)

Ulrich Zwingli: “I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.”.” (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. comp., V6,1 P. 639

So, if the Catholic Church believes in this doctrine and the reformers believed in this doctrine–by whose authority and when was this doctrine rejected by all the Protestant Churches?

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This is awesome. Thanks for sharing. i knew luther loved Mary, i wasn't aware the others did too. That's really cool to see that even during the reformation itself there was less division then now.
I'm not in agreement with all protestant / reformed theology, and to be honest i'm just not sure where it stared with protestants removing themselves from the original reformers.
In scripture you can see parallels between mary and eve, abraham, the ark of the covenant, the temple, the lady in revelations 12, there is type and shadows with mary and many other things in scripture.

That's all fine.


But where did the traditions come from? The stuff outside of scripture, that if we were to lose all history except our language and our bible, that there would be no way to see that Mary was immaculately conceived. That her mother also had a virgin birth. That mary is without original sin since conception. That she wouldn't die on earth but be raised to heaven.

At some point we have accepted that even though the scriptures is the only content with Mary, that at some point people have said that what we have now is just as true as what scripture tells us.
I can see a lot of things in scripture that signify Mary as important, but many things in the tradition itself are extra-biblical.

Blake Place said:

I'm a little confused here, to be a saint i thought you must have performed miracles.
Not only that but i've heard catholics suggest Mary has done many miracles.
Can you explain what you mean a little more?
Although i do understand that she is not a deity or considered equal with christ in the eyes of most catholics. however i have heard some concerning concepts that she is in relationship with the holy spirit or that she has a specific role in the salvation of all christians. obviously i haven't heard those statements here, but yeah. concerning.

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There is a word for that: intercession.
Mary and the Saints do not perform miracles but ask God to perform them. By intercession.