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Edom in Ovadiah and Jeremiah

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Judaism DIR.

What is the Jewish (of any flavour) understanding of the seemingly repeated passages in Ovadiah and Jeremiah 49?

Ovadiah:
1The vision of Obadiah; So said the Lord God concerning Edom; We have heard tidings from the Lord, and a messenger has been sent among the nations, "Arise and let us rise up against them in war!"
2Behold I have made you small among the nations; you are very despised.
3The wickedness of your heart enticed you, who dwell in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high, who says to himself, "Who will bring me down to the earth?"
4If you go up high like an eagle, and if you place your nest among the stars, from there I will bring you down, says the Lord.
5Did thieves come upon you, did plunderers of the night? How were you silent? Will they not steal till they have enough? If vintagers came upon you, would they not leave over some gleaning grapes?
6How Esau was searched out, how his hidden things were revealed!


Jeremiah 49:9-10
9If vintagers have come upon you, will they not leave over gleaning grapes? If thieves at night, they destroy until they have enough.
10For I exposed Esau, I revealed his hidden places, and he could not hide; his seed, his brothers, and his neighbors were spoiled, and he is not here.


Jeremiah 49:14-16
14I have heard tidings from the Lord, and an emissary is sent among the nations: Assemble and come upon her, and arise for war!
15For, behold, I have made you small among the nations, despised among man.
16Your hastiness has enticed you, the wickedness of your heart, you who dwell in the clefts of the rock, who hold the height of the hill; if you raise your nest like an eagle, from there will I bring you down, says the Lord.

 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Rashi, from Jeremiah 49:9 (I copied it from the chabad page)

"I have exposed Esau, etc. I have heard tidings, etc. On this order, Obadiah prophesied concerning Edom, but since one watchword is passed to many prophets, but no two prophets prophesy under the same watchword, they differ in several words."


the Ibn Ezra on Ovadiah 1 mentions that 3 prophets prophesied about the same events ("וירמיה וישעיה ועמוס שהתנבאו על אדום, על כן אמר: שמענו"). The Abarbenel goes into more detail and is worth a read, as is the malbim and the Radak.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Similar to @rosends, in the awesome book Barzilai, Rabbi Marcus dedicated a chapter to explaining in length how the various prophets, in particular those from Eliyahu until Yechzkel, were students and teachers of one to the next (some taught a few). While he uses the textual analysis to put Ovadiah during Eliyahu's time (as do other commentators, though he bases this on the linguistic variants of their prophecies), which means that Ovadiah was generations before Yirmiyahu, he says about Yirmiyahu that in his and Yechzkel's time, prophecy was clearly dying out. A symbolic "twilight" of prophecy. In Yirmiyahu's book, you can find one final big surge of prophecy, in which he mirrors the prophetic style of several generations of prophets, and not merely that of his teacher. The mirroring is also noticeable not just in lingual choice but also in prophecies that mirror past ones.

As a note on the "twilight" of prophecy, I heard a class by I believe Rabbi Yoel Bin-Nun who said spoke about how Yechzkel's prophecy of the Merkava is really a prophecy of the Shechina leaving Am Yisrael when they're exiled. When the Shechina leaves, the Merkava can be seen - it's both glorious and horrifyingly tragic at the same time. Why did Yechzkel get to see such an awesome sight? Because he was experiencing the dying surge of prophecy, much like Yirmiyahu.
 

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
Judaism DIR.

What is the Jewish (of any flavour) understanding of the seemingly repeated passages in Ovadiah and Jeremiah 49?

Ovadiah:
1The vision of Obadiah; So said the Lord God concerning Edom; We have heard tidings from the Lord, and a messenger has been sent among the nations, "Arise and let us rise up against them in war!"
2Behold I have made you small among the nations; you are very despised.
3The wickedness of your heart enticed you, who dwell in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high, who says to himself, "Who will bring me down to the earth?"
4If you go up high like an eagle, and if you place your nest among the stars, from there I will bring you down, says the Lord.
5Did thieves come upon you, did plunderers of the night? How were you silent? Will they not steal till they have enough? If vintagers came upon you, would they not leave over some gleaning grapes?
6How Esau was searched out, how his hidden things were revealed!

Jeremiah 49:9-10
9If vintagers have come upon you, will they not leave over gleaning grapes? If thieves at night, they destroy until they have enough.
10For I exposed Esau, I revealed his hidden places, and he could not hide; his seed, his brothers, and his neighbors were spoiled, and he is not here.

Jeremiah 49:14-16
14I have heard tidings from the Lord, and an emissary is sent among the nations: Assemble and come upon her, and arise for war!
15For, behold, I have made you small among the nations, despised among man.
16Your hastiness has enticed you, the wickedness of your heart, you who dwell in the clefts of the rock, who hold the height of the hill; if you raise your nest like an eagle, from there will I bring you down, says the Lord.
I’m not sure where we are going here Rival, but for you, my new zeis fruend, i will study these sections and report back !
 
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