Is there any place for blasphemy laws in the twenty first century?

Windwalker · Sep 11, 2020

Amanaki said:
I believe there should not be any reason to offend other peoples faith or belief.

Some people are offended by other people's beliefs. That's just because we are humans who have different ideas and values.

Amanaki said:
I dont speak of a law that harm others, but a law saying that offending other peoples faith or religion should not be done. Then it is up to us as human beings to have moral high enough to not on purpose offend other people.

But a law has to be enforceable in order for it to be considered a law. Otherwise, it's just a request, not a law. You can request people not do certain things, but that is not obligatory that others have to do it. They may choose to respect that request or not. Not so with laws. You don't get to chose to stop or not stop on the road when the light turns red. You are obligated to. You are forced to by the law.

Do you want to force people to stop offending other people's belief? Do you want to take away their rights to do so if they choose for whatever reason to do so?

Amanaki said:
I dont speak of jail time or similar punishment

A ticket? A small fine? A misdemeanor offense? Community service? Picking up litter if you say something someone in some religion somewhere takes as "blasphemy"?

No. That's still force. That's not freedom.

Spirit of Light · Sep 11, 2020

Windwalker said:
Some people are offended by other people's beliefs. That's just because we are humans who have different ideas and values.

But a law has to be enforceable in order for it to be considered a law. Otherwise, it's just a request, not a law. You can request people not do certain things, but that is not obligatory that others have to do it. They may choose to respect that request or not. Not so with laws. You don't get to chose to stop or not stop on the road when the light turns red. You are obligated to. You are forced to by the law.

Do you want to force people to stop offending other people's belief? Do you want to take away their rights to do so if they choose for whatever reason to do so?

A ticket? A small fine? A misdemeanor offense? Community service? Picking up litter if you say something someone in some religion somewhere takes as "blasphemy"?

No. That's still force. That's not freedom.

I find freedom within religioues laws or guidelines. I understand many other dont do that.
In this thread i speak my mind, what I want. But i know my words are worthless to others.

Windwalker · Sep 11, 2020

firedragon said:
Not Blasphemy laws. They have specific definitions.

Also, since you say blasphemy is in the eye of the beholder, you have interpreted someone else's mind through the lens of yours. So if you want to know what someone you speak to thinks is "blasphemy" just ask. Dont make assumptions and put words into their minds.

Cheers.

I'm not putting words in their mouths. They say it themselves, calling Pis -Christ for instance, blasphemy. Obviously, blasphemy is in the eye of the beholder, as other's don't see Pis - Christ for example, as blasphemy. Some take offense, others do not. This is not an assumption on my part, but the fact as anyone can observe.

So what makes "Blasphemy Laws" anything different than what whichever group is in power determining something should be offensive? How is that not "in the eye of the beholder". Not every is going to agree that what they call blasphemy, is actually offensive, such as the Pis Christ example.

Windwalker · Sep 11, 2020

Amanaki said:
I find freedom within religioues laws or guidelines.

If it's the system you've chosen, than you are freely choosing to follow them and they offer benefit and value to you. But, if you are not part of that system, being forced to respect and follow those rules of system you are not part of, is not freedom. It is forced coercion. Do you want to compel people legally to not say anything against Islam? Any person drawing an image of the Prophet, even if they are not Muslims, should place the artist at risk of violating the law? Is that what you want? To consider them as law breakers?

firedragon · Sep 11, 2020

Windwalker said:
I'm not putting words in their mouths. They say it themselve

Dont say vague statements like "they". You are addressing one person. Ask him what is in his mind rather than making assumptions and then misquoting them.

Windwalker said:
So what makes "Blasphemy Laws" anything different than what whichever group is in power determining something should be offensive? How is that not "in the eye of the beholder". Not every is going to agree that what they call blasphemy, is actually offensive, such as the Pis Christ example.

I dont know what Pis Christ is and if that is an offensive thing I won't even repeat it.

Nevertheless, there are 7 billion people in the world and if we go to think of how everyone differs in their opinion of blasphemy its a worthless track. Ask the person you are accusing about his opinion first. This is what I have been saying so many times. Dont misquote them.

firedragon · Sep 11, 2020

Windwalker said:
Do you want to compel people legally to not say anything against Islam?

Again you are misquoting people mate. Why do you make assumptions about what others think? You are imposing your bias to another person. Reading through this thread it is only simple to read and understand that this person you are misquoting repeatedly is saying "any blasphemy against any religion is not good, but that does not call for capital punishment" but you are trying your best to make him a bias, bigot who thinks of only Islam.

Why?

Spirit of Light · Sep 11, 2020

Windwalker said:
If it's the system you've chosen, than you are freely choosing to follow them and they offer benefit and value to you. But, if you are not part of that system, being forced to respect and follow those rules of system you are not part of, is not freedom. It is forced coercion. Do you want to compel people legally to not say anything against Islam?

I have not said you pr your like-minded people have to follow the rules i do. All i said is i can not understand the need for the blasphemic words or actions toward religioues people. You do not need to follow islam or any other religion to have respect for those who chose to do. Just because Islam has come to your country does not mean your country will become muslims. You are free to believe whatbyou want.

Do you expect religioues people to respect you when you say no to any form of respect toward them?

Windwalker · Sep 11, 2020

firedragon said:
Dont say vague statements like "they". You are addressing one person. Ask him what is in his mind rather than making assumptions and then misquoting them.

What on earth are you talking about. I gave you and example of Christians who called Pis Christ blasphemy. "They" those Christians call it that. They, those Christians have an opinion of what others don't see as blasphemy. Those others, "They" don't agree.

What is vague about the word "they" in the context of what I've been posting? You're not sure how people use the word "they" in the contexts of typical sentences?

firedragon said:
I dont know what Pis Christ is and if that is an offensive thing I won't even repeat it.

I'm sorry, you didn't bother to read my post? Here's the link to it. If you're not willing to consider what I'm saying, not bother to engage with what I shared and the points I made, then this isn't a discussion. Here:

**** Christ - Wikipedia

firedragon · Sep 11, 2020

Windwalker said:
What on earth are you talking about. I gave you and example of Christians who called Pis Christ blasphemy. "They" those Christians call it that. They, those Christians have an opinion of what others don't see as blasphemy. Those others, "They" don't agree.

What is vague about the word "they" in the context of what I've been posting? You're not sure how people use the word "they" in the contexts of typical sentences?

I'm sorry, you didn't bother to read my post? Here's the link to it. If you're not willing to consider what I'm saying, not bother to engage with what I shared and the points I made, then this isn't a discussion. Here:

**** Christ - Wikipedia

Ciao.

Windwalker · Sep 11, 2020

Amanaki said:
I have not said you pr your like-minded people have to follow the rules i do. All i said is i can not understand the need for the blasphemic words or actions toward religioues people.

If that is all you said, I don't have a problem with that. BUT, that is not all you said. You said this:

Amanaki said:
I do not support any form of killing someone, but blasphemy law is important since it is clear that not all people can accept the religioues view of others. Why should some people be allowed to do their best to damage a religion just because they do not like it them self?
In some muslim countries the sharia law is practiced to hard, that i agree to. But the lW is there for a reason.

The minute you say there needs to be a LAW, that is no longer just an innocent ideal of wishing everyone could just respect each other. You explicitly stated they, the blasphemers in your view, should not be allowed to do that.

Do you still maintain that view, or are you backing off now and retract what you said in Post 7? If you are, then fine. I have nothing more to say. Are you now saying there should be NO laws, and that no one should be forced by law to be silent? If you are, then my work here is done.

Do you retract what you said in Post 7 which I quoted you as saying above? Yes, or no?

Spirit of Light · Sep 11, 2020

Windwalker said:
If that is all you said, I don't have a problem with that. BUT, that is not all you said. You said this:

The minute you say there needs to be a LAW, that is no longer just an innocent ideal of wishing everyone could just respect each other. You explicitly stated they, the blasphemers in your view, should not be allowed to do that.

Do you still maintain that view, or are you backing off now and retract what you said in Post 7? If you are, then fine. I have nothing more to say. Are you now saying there should be NO laws, and that no one should be forced by law to be silent? If you are, then my work here is done.

Do you retract what you said in Post 7 which I quoted you as saying above? Yes, or no?

I have nothing to back off from, i trying to find away to say my view of this topic in discussion. Personally i see a huge benefit from a blasphemy law, but i can not enforce it upon others. So my Statement is still I am all for blasphemy law. But i also understand that others do not see it this way.

The freedom of speech you speak of is not what i see as right, but its only my opinion, you are free to have your opini9n too.

Windwalker · Sep 11, 2020

Amanaki said:
I have nothing to back off from, i trying to find away to say my view of this topic in discussion.
Personally i see a huge benefit from a blasphemy law, but i can not enforce it upon others. So my Statement is still I am all for blasphemy law. But i also understand that others do not see it this way.

Yes, others are not in favor of suppression of the freedom of speech. Your opinion is that should be taken away, by law. You are free to that terrible opinion. Others find that opinion threatening and blasphemous to the idea of Freedom. How quickly we forfeit our freedoms for security.

columbus · Sep 12, 2020

Amanaki said:
So my Statement is still I am all for blasphemy law.

In this post:

"Get Out of Her"

I seriously criticized another posters religion and religious behavior.

Do you think I deserve punishment for doing so? I consider it blasphemy, at least I intended it that way.
Tom

Danielle Dark · Sep 13, 2020

This question seems to imply that there was once a time when there was a place for blasphemy laws.

Spirit of Light · Sep 13, 2020

columbus said:
In this post:

"Get Out of Her"

I seriously criticized another posters religion and religious behavior.

Do you think I deserve punishment for doing so? I consider it blasphemy, at least I intended it that way.
Tom

I have no intention of punishing you, but i do not understand the wish to mock and say blasphemic words toward others, it does not create anything good of doing it.
You are of course free to disagree with people from different religions, but why the wish to mock?

TagliatelliMonster · Sep 13, 2020

firedragon said:
Ah so the answer is a generic definition, not a specific pinpointing. Hmm. Nice.

You asked me to define it. I defined it.
Take it or leave it.

TagliatelliMonster · Sep 13, 2020

firedragon said:
Any media institution be it one to one or one to many, print, radio, TV, Digital etc etc what ever it is, if you could get the reaction that Muslims sometimes provide thinking they are voicing against matters like Charlie Hebdo, that's a great achievement. Media professionals bank on this kind of reaction because it helps with ratings. All media companies do this and I dont blame them. Thats strategy.

This doesn't make any sense, if you know and realise that CH had been making satirical cartoons for political and religious leaders (including islam) for years already.

There wasn't anything particularly new or extra ordinary that triggered al-qaida into doing what they always do.

In fact, the very idea of what you say is simply bizar.....

"let's have them attack and kill us so that we can sell more copies".

Uhu, sounds legit.

TagliatelliMonster · Sep 13, 2020

Amanaki said:
My view is that we all should respect our differences in the religions. If Christianity teach one thing and Islam something different, that is ok to me. I dont speak bad about other religions anyway.
I did in the past and found it to be wrong of me to do.

I guess my question is, why do you only apply this tolerance and logic to other religions?

If christianity says something offensive to muslims, it is "okay" for you.
But if secularism, humanism, or any other non-religious social system says something offensive to muslims... then we need blasphemy laws or alike.

Why the distinction?

firedragon · Sep 13, 2020

TagliatelliMonster said:
This doesn't make any sense, if you know and realise that CH had been making satirical cartoons for political and religious leaders (including islam) for years already.

So who said it changes anything?

firedragon · Sep 13, 2020

TagliatelliMonster said:
In fact, the very idea of what you say is simply bizar.....

"let's have them attack and kill us so that we can sell more copies".

Well, never said it. I think you are just making things up for other people to make up some argument they never made. If you are fishing for an argument you like to make for yourself, dont make up things. Wait till someone slips up and then pounce on them. More enjoyable and doesnt make you look desperate for an opportunity to insult people for some life.

Is there any place for blasphemy laws in the twenty first century?

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