Did the Bible evolve upwards?

halbhh said:

To me, Genesis chapter 1 was significantly symbolic on first reading, already, at age 11 or so, without even effort or special consideration -- it's just worded that way.

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Sure, but your main opponents to that view are going to be other Christians, not us. You have no idea how aggressive they can get. More than when they fight us. I am a member of very conservative Christian sites where they close threads postulating the Bible being symbolic, while letting threads, where I declare there is no God, alive. Go figure.

I, and my fellow atheists, will look at you like those Hebrews in the Life of Brian movie, all fighting each others, while the Romans were laughing.

Ciao

- viole

viole said:

Sure, but your main opponents to that view are going to be other Christians, not us. You have no idea how aggressive they can get. More than when they fight us. I am a member of very conservative Christian sites where they close threads postulating the Bible being symbolic, while letting threads, where I declare there is no God, alive.

I, and my fellow atheists, will look at you like those Hebrews in the Life of Brian movie, all fighting each others, while the Romans were laughing.

Ciao

- viole

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Usually it's better not to argue at much length when an ideology is involved. I often now a days am satisfied to merely make one good point. Here's one that fits at times, and isn't getting involved in a non-productive argument:
"Science is only the effort over time to try to figure out how nature works."

-- this can help some I think, to try to clear up some of the wrong impressions some can get about 'science'.

It's enough, quite good really, to correct 1 key error.

Messianic Israelite said:

Why do people believe in the theory of evolution? Is it really a better explanation for the development and origin of life than that which the Bible teaches?

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You expose your ignorance on this topic with this thread post. What's ironic is that your target audience appears to be people who believe in evolution - that you might sway them to some other line of thinking. Unfortunately, your blatant ignorance has even its bones exposed in this post, and as such, the very target of your words cannot possibly accept or entertain a single word you have said. You have sabotaged the very core of your effort with your ignorance - and therefore have done absolutely nothing but preach to the choir and get high-fives from everyone just as ignorant as you are. You have failed in your attempt. Perhaps learn more (A LOT more) and try again another day?

halbhh said:

Usually it's better not to argue at much length when an ideology is involved.

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Why not? Everything is arguable. And censorship is self defeating.

halbhh said:

I often now a days am satisfied to merely make one good point. Here's one that fits at times, and isn't getting involved in a non-productive argument:
"Science is only the effort over time to try to figure out how nature works."

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Correct. You seem to belong to the "not overlapping magisteria" sort of thinking. Fine with me.

However, I am honestly not sure whether things like evolution by natural selection are compatible with a God who knows what He wants, and He is benevolent. Actually, I do not think they are compatible at all.

But at least, believers who think they are, are invaluable in providing support for proper education in places where this sort of things is still controversial. As a Swede I do not need such a PR, since creationism is banned here obviously, and with the endorsement of the church, but I heard that in places like Uganda, where evolution is still controversial, they are still needed.

Ciao

- viole

Messianic Israelite said:

People today mostly believe in the theory of evolution. Why they believe in the theory of evolution is because they tell themselves that it is the most evidence-based explanation of how life arose on this earth. What people don’t seem to understand is the havoc believing in such a theory has on the faith of a person. Having never believed in the theory of evolution myself, I can easily identify this as a major proponent for atheism in these end times,

But my question is this. Did the Bible evolve upwards? Evolution is applied to many things in life; should the Bible be one of them? The Bible teaches that at the beginning of the creation of man, people’s longevity of life was far beyond that of what it is today. Methuselah, one of our oldest forefathers, lived for nearly a whole millennium. This comparison to the age of which we live today means we have not evolved, but that entropy is a more plausible explanation.

Why do people believe in the theory of evolution? Is it really a better explanation for the development and origin of life than that which the Bible teaches? I believe in microevolution because this can be observed. I do not believe in macroevolution which is an upward, beneficial increase in complexity as evolutionists claim happened millions of times between bacteria and man. Macroevolution cannot be observed. What would normally be considered a ridiculous idea (like a worm becoming a man) can seem credible by expanding the amount of time. The theory is wholly inadequate. The fossil record express a complete lack of transitional fossils showing one kind of animal changing into another. The amount of damage this theory has done to faith is insurmountable. And for what? Believing in the theory of evolution can only be described as a blind faith.

All you’re doing when believing in the theory of evolution is trusting in man, rather than Yahweh as Jeremiah 17:5-6 states:

"Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who draws strength from mere flesh
and whose heart turns away from Yahweh.
6 That person will be like a bush in the wastelands;
they will not see prosperity when it comes.
They will dwell in the parched places of the desert,
in a salt land where no one lives."

This scripture tells us those that trust in man are cursed. The theory of evolution is a man-made theory. I think it was either in 2007 or 2005 when the Presbyterian Ch-rch passed a resolution by a lopsided vote of 353-150 if memory serves, reaffirming its support of evolutionary theory and encouraging the teaching of ‘reliable scientific knowledge’ in public schools. Many religious organisations are selling out because they don’t take the Bible literally. How could anyone squeeze the theory of evolution in to the Bible? It doesn't work.

Atheists will call Creationists blind, but isn’t the reverse true? There is no observable evidence for macroevolution. Further, macro-evolution requires millions of just-right mutations. On the contrary, there is plenty of visible evidence of Intelligent Design. To prove something by the scientific method it must be repeatable, measurable and observable, none of which things the theory of evolution is. And if anyone thinks they can simultaneously believe in the theory of evolution as well as Yahweh you are mistaken. Yahweh created all life on earth within 6 literal 24 hour days and rested on the 7th. Yahweh did not wait millions of years for man to evolve out of meagre creatures. How ridiculous. Yahweh sets clear bounds even within the animal kingdom. Man was never anything other than man.

There was a theory quite popular in the 1970’s I hear that said ‘G-d is dead’ or ‘Yahweh is dead’. This would be an easy theory to believe in if one believed in the theory of evolution because it shows that Yahweh doesn’t care about human kind. That he has left us all to our own devices without instructions, vision or clarity. That all things will eventually get better, they’ll evolve.

Did the Bible evolve upwards? No, the message of the Bible is the same: fear Elohim and keep his commandments. Rather I would have to conclude that this world has degraded downwards.

Romans 1:25 says:
"for that they exchanged the truth of Yahweh for a lie
and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.
Amen."

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So what is it that you wanted to debate here?

Messianic Israelite said:

People today mostly believe in the theory of evolution. Why they believe in the theory of evolution is because they tell themselves that it is the most evidence-based explanation of how life arose on this earth. What people don’t seem to understand is the havoc believing in such a theory has on the faith of a person. Having never believed in the theory of evolution myself, I can easily identify this as a major proponent for atheism in these end times,

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If you push something you can understand how that works - there's the
connection between you and the object - ie your arm.
And you can pull an object if there's a connection, ie your arm or a rope etc..
But how does gravity pull something when there's no connection?
Einstein reckons there's this invisible "hole" that an object kind of "falls" into.
It's part of his "General Theory."

How can you believe such an idea of invisible holes in "space time"?
Yet gravity exists, no?
So does evolution, as we are seeing with Covid 19 and its new variants.

Messianic Israelite said:

People today mostly believe in the theory of evolution. Why they believe in the theory of evolution is because they tell themselves that it is the most evidence-based explanation of how life arose on this earth. What people don’t seem to understand is the havoc believing in such a theory has on the faith of a person. Having never believed in the theory of evolution myself, I can easily identify this as a major proponent for atheism in these end times,

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Once again I'm reminded of the words, "The truth shall set you free!"

Messianic Israelite said:

The Bible teaches that at the beginning of the creation of man, people’s longevity of life was far beyond that of what it is today. Methuselah, one of our oldest forefathers, lived for nearly a whole millennium. This comparison to the age of which we live today means we have not evolved, but that entropy is a more plausible explanation.

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Given the mountains of evidence against such claims of longevity, I don't see how they can possibly be accurate statements about reality.

Messianic Israelite said:

Why do people believe in the theory of evolution? Is it really a better explanation for the development and origin of life than that which the Bible teaches?

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Because it's an accurate description and account of reality, and capable of being checked and thus possibly falsified by examinable evidence. The bible claims have no higher status than stories (though culturally stories can be useful, of course).

Messianic Israelite said:

I believe in microevolution because this can be observed.

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But the alternative to macroevolution is magic. And we have not one single authenticated example of magic in the whole of history ─ merely stories.

Messianic Israelite said:

I do not believe in macroevolution which is an upward, beneficial increase in complexity as evolutionists claim happened millions of times between bacteria and man.

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It's only 'upwards' in human terms. The cockroach has seen no need for significant change across hundreds of millions of years.

Messianic Israelite said:

Macroevolution cannot be observed.

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Again, the evidence for it, not least the abundant genetic evidence, is vastly stronger than magic, which is the alternative you propose.

Messianic Israelite said:

The theory is wholly inadequate.

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Then don't waste your time on RF ─ write a paper demonstrating you're correct, get it published in a respected journal of science, and get yourself a Nobel prize.

Messianic Israelite said:

The fossil record express a complete lack of transitional fossils showing one kind of animal changing into another.

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Oh yeah?

Messianic Israelite said:

This scripture tells us those that trust in man are cursed.

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Well (to put Ms. Keeler's saying in its usual slightly incorrect form) They would say that, wouldn't they. They're selling a product, after all, and fear is a very usual part of political salesmanship.

Messianic Israelite said:

There was a theory quite popular in the 1970’s I hear that said ‘G-d is dead’

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'God is dead' goes back to Nietzsche (The Gay Science, 1882), though his context was a little different.

But I've never been able to find out what a real god is ─ the objective test that will tell me whether my keyboard is God or not ─ so I dare say the expression refers to the idea of God, not to some being with objective existence.

Messianic Israelite said:

People today mostly believe in the theory of evolution.

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People today understand the ToE. They have been educated.
Your education seems to be lacking. Otherwise you'd not say things like: "Macroevolution cannot be observed.", "The fossil record express a complete lack of transitional fossils showing one kind of animal changing into another." or "To prove something by the scientific method it must be repeatable, measurable and observable, none of which things the theory of evolution is."
I'm inviting every creationist to learn enough about the ToE in just a few months (instead of years of education others, who understand the ToE, have) to accept it as the best scientific explanation we currently have for the diversity of life.
Go to: Why the Theory of Evolution is True. Part 1: What is Science?

Jayhawker Soule said:

Speak for yourself. If you can't deal with it, don't.

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Good morning Jayhawker. Msg #2. My faith is secure. I have never felt threatened by the theory of evolution because I have great faith in the Word of Yahweh. Nonetheless, I’m concerned for others whose faith might be already weak, accepting a theory that in essence makes them Bible critics rather than faith believers.

Quintessence said:

Perhaps, but I think you misunderstand biological evolution a tad. Biological evolution is not about some sort of upwards progression in the way you probably mean here. It is about adaptions in groups of organisms over time in response to specific environmental conditions. In that sense, the Bible has evolved in a biology-like sense through the various religions that have utilized it as an important source of inspiration. Teachings and interpretations of the Bible have changed in populations of humans over time to better suit the needs of different historical eras and cultural contexts.



Well, "better" is always a value judgement and therefore inherently a subjective assessment. That said, in terms of presenting an explanation for biological diversity on the planet, biology doesn't make sense without biological evolution it is that central to the discipline. The ability of the Bible - or any other mythological narrative - to contribute to the sciences is very limited by comparison. Contributes outside the sciences though, are a different story but mythology is less about "explaining things" than it is about contextualizing human life experiences to provide meaningfulness in an otherwise meaningless universe.



As a reminder, that's not what biological evolution says. That biological evolution is backed with bucketloads of observations is why it is a scientific theory, similar to the bucketloads of evidence we have for, say, gravity.



My "faith" (if one can call it that - my religion is not faith-based) was not at all damaged by biological evolution. If anything, it's enhanced by it, but that's all I speak to that since you probably aren't interested in a Pagan context. It certainly wasn't "blind faith" in accepting biological evolution either - it was education as a life scientist. Having learned about biological evolution, I can understand why it may appear like "blind faith" to those who haven't learned it. Misconceptions about biological evolution are very prevalent too, which doesn't make it any easier.

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Quintesssence. Good morning. Msg #3. You say that teachings and interpretations of the Bible have changed over time, but I don’t see that. In my faith we still believe in keeping the commandments of Yahweh. We, like the people of yore, still approach the Bible as a more-or-less literal book, especially with regards to history and creation.

You also say biology doesn’t make sense without biological evolution. Biology would make perfect sense without accepting macroevolution. I have no problem with microevolution which can be proven and is not contrary to the Bible. Intelligent Design should be taught instead. You also compare the Bible to a mythological narrative. There is nothing mythological about the Bible. The Bible is a trustworthy source, much more so than any other source we have. It is the Magnus Opus of the world which doesn’t just describe the history of the world, but the necessary things we must do to make it in to the Kingdom of Yahweh. It contains wisdom and timeless truths that go far beyond any of the philosophies of man. Frankly, I’m offended that you would call the Bible a mythological work. Yahweh exists and He has set forth instructions as to how He wants His people to live.

Macroevolution is not supported by bucketloads of observations. That’s not the truth at all Quintessence. Macroevolution has never been observed. I know what I need to know about macroevolution and that is that it is not supported by the Bible. Too many characterless people have succumbed to accepting macroevolution despite it being nothing more than a broken cistern that can hold no water (Jeremiah 2:13). It's all a question of faith. Do people believe in the Bible or don't they? There is no middle ground.

PruePhillip said:

If you push something you can understand how that works - there's the
connection between you and the object - ie your arm.
And you can pull an object if there's a connection, ie your arm or a rope etc..
But how does gravity pull something when there's no connection?
Einstein reckons there's this invisible "hole" that an object kind of "falls" into.
It's part of his "General Theory."

How can you believe such an idea of invisible holes in "space time"?
Yet gravity exists, no?
So does evolution, as we are seeing with Covid 19 and its new variants.

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That I think is a winner for opposite reasons. I have not come across a sillier post in my participation in various forums for some two decades. So, hail PruePhillip. You are a gem.
I think Messianic Israelite also deserves an appreciation for his posts. Let me go through some of his posts.
Oh, he lives in UK. I thought only US people had this kind of thoughts.

Brickjectivity said:

I disagree, sir/mz. Its not why people become atheists. People become atheists because of the way religious people behave. Even our own scripture says so in a way. Isaiah 52:5 "...and all day long my name is blasphemed..." You seem to presume that people believe because of proofs, but they don't. Children believe proofs. Maybe if they grow into adults they continue to, but adults...nah. Adults need better than proofs.


I doubt it. I mean its more like a purposeful thing. While some people act like its a rip of other writings they fail to grasp why its written. Its written in opposition to the themes of other writings. It has a purpose, and its not simply evolving. Even if it could, evolution involves enormous time scales nothing like the short time scale in which the canon appears.

You assert that the Bible teaches that life comes from Genesis, but you have no grounds to do so. It has no preface, no category. Its not in the non-fiction section nor in the fiction. I'd say its not fiction, but its not about our planet, either.


No, no no! Absolutely not. That is so upside down. People trust in ministers, and that is trusting in man. We have become enslaved to our ministers, and this is against God.

Its not as important as you think. Lots of people believe in God and still find Evolution to be obvious in nature.

No. People with brains call creationists wrong, and its got diddly squat to do with atheism. The creationists need to stop trying to assert things that aren't naturally correct. They need stop trying to make the invisible God visible. They need to back off and let God work assuming they believe God is even involved in faith. Have you heard the phrase "Having a form of godliness but the denying the power thereof?" That's Creationism in a nutshell.

Marxists. For whatever reason it become popular it was coined by Neitzche who was panicking that society would reject God. He wasn't happy about it. He felt the rejection of God would lead to the collapse of western civilization (or so I am told). Turns out he was probably I think making some good points, but evolution isn't going to cause people to reject God. People don't accept God because they see God. They accept God invisibly. Why won't you accept this very basic tenet of faith in God?

There is no enemy for you to strike, so stop swinging.

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Brickjectivity. Hi and good morning. Msg 4. You say people are atheists because of the way religious people behave. Perhaps that’s one reason people become atheists, but I don’t think it is a coincidence that every atheist I have met believes in the theory of evolution. It’s easy to point the finger and blame the actions of supposed religious people for atheism, but at the end of the day it’s a matter of faith with the individual and believing in the theory of evolution eats away at the very bedrock of faith in the Bible.

In terms of children and adults and adults needing more than proofs. I’m a grown adult, 31 years old in fact and I believe concretely in the Bible. Where does that place me in your opinion?

You say evolution involves enormous time scales. Yes, I would agree with you there. So enormous that quite frankly it’s ridiculous as conveniently no-one can prove such a theory.

I’m not sure how you can say the Book of Genesis has no preface or category. Genesis, Hebrew B-e-r-e-s-h-i-t (“In the Beginning”), the first book of the Bible. Its name derives from the opening words: “In the beginning….” Genesis narrates the primeval history of the world (chapters 1–11) and the patriarchal history of the Israelite people (chapters 12–50).. It’s the first book of the Bible and describes what took place in the heavens and earth before Yahweh began creating. You say it’s not about our planet, but it clearly tells us what Yahweh did to the ‘earth’, not another planet. Furthermore, it’s clear to see from our solar system alone that earth was the only planet Yahweh chose to make habitable.

You think that trusting in man is trusting in ministers. That is one way a person can trust in man, yes, but so is believing in the man-made theory of evolution. It’s a man devised theory that is full of holes and missing links and quite frankly an affront to any truth seeker.

You say lots of people believe in Yahweh and simultaneously believe in evolution. That’s one of the reasons I wrote this thread. It’s a big problem. You start talking to some of these religious types who believe in the theory of evolution and you’ll find very quickly that despite them making a show that they have faith in Yahweh and the Word, their faith is an empty shell, an outward show of righteousness but nothing inside. Didn’t you mention earlier that atheists are atheists because of the way religious people behave? Well, people are driven to behave in a way which displays faith in Yahweh or faithlessness, and the theory of evolution drives faithlessness. After all, it’s not those religious types who have a perfect faith in Yahweh and His Word that are muddying the waters so to speak for others.

You say atheism has nothing to do with calling Creationists wrong. We will have to agree to disagree on that. Creationists believe in the Bible, atheists don’t. Don’t make the invisible Yahweh visible you say. Well that I don’t understand. He is visible already in His Word, although we can’t see a manifestation of Him. We all should desire to see Yahweh as Matthew 5:8 says. If we undercut the Word by putting man’s words in Yahweh’s mouth, that we evolved from bacteria, of course we won’t see Yahweh.

You quote from 2 Timothy 3:5 “Having a form of righteousness but denying the power of it” and you suggest this is talking about Creationists. Wow. I think I’ve heard it all now. The power probably refers to the Holy Spirit, something that is given to those who obey Yahweh according to Acts 5:32. I don’t know how you have managed to twist it to say that Creationists, who believe in the power of Yahweh to create as per Genesis 1, are those whom it talks about.

Thanks for educating me on Neitzche. You say “People don’t accept G-d because they see G-d. They accept G-d invisibly”. I’m well aware of this but sorry, I fail to see your point. I’m not arguing that Yahweh has chosen to remain invisible. But His Word is visible and as such we believe on that even though we see no figure. Haven't you read Hebrews 11:27:

"By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible."

We can see Yahweh if we believe in His Word.

In terms of there being no enemy to strike, I never said there was. But the enemy of faith is faithlessness, and I’m certainly not going to believe in any theory that doesn’t coincide with the Bible. Yahshua himself when on this earth referred to Noah’s flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and Jacob’s well even as literal occurrences. Why can’t more people accept the Bible in the same faith-filled way?

firedragon said:

Theory of evolution is not "the most evidence-based explanation of how life arose on this earth". It does not address "how life arose on this earth".

Also, it is not quite right to think that evolution is a new idea or theory. Prior to the modern boom with Darwin and whoever at the time propagated it it was called Muhammedan theory. Some people like Ibn Khaldun also had the idea of evolution although it is an ancient thought as we know. Thus, theists have had this theory in their circles for a long long time.

It is a modern idea to have this conflict between evolution and theism. My opinion is that this animosity came up because people want to isolate their enemy into something and then oppose it even if it goes beyond reason. Strange.

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Hi firedragon. Good morning. Msg 5. Evolution may be an old theory. I have never looked in to it myself. Doesn’t make it right though does it? If the theory of evolution did exist previously, it would have been contested by the worshippers of Yahweh. In that sense, it wouldn’t be a modern idea to have conflict between belief in the Bible and evolution. The Word of Yahweh is straightforward and opposes all deviations from the Word. That’s strongly shown in the Torah Law in passages such as Deuteronomy 13:10. That has been the case for millennia. Nothing strange about it.

Windwalker said:

A couple points here. Why do you assume evolution creates havoc for other people's faith? If it does for you, then that says something about how you hold your own faith, not how others hold theirs. And secondly, why do you equate it with atheism, when there are millions of Christians and those of other faith traditions who accept evolution, and still hold faith?


Yes. There is clear evidence of an evolution of the beliefs about God within the bible, beginning with early ideas about God, which are evidenced in other cultures in that time period, to later more sophisticated ideas about God later in history. These same things are paralleled in other religions historically as well.

Evolution does tend to make the organism more able to adapt to changes in the environment, and religion is in this case that organism. It adapts and grows to changing cultural, political, and economic pressures. Evolution applies to everything.


The Bible contains stories of many fantastical things that are vehicles for symbolic meanings. I do not believe the point of this was to teach historical facts, as the meaning of the stories was what was important. Not the details. The Bible should not be treated as a modern scientific or historical research paper. To approach that way, in fact does set you up for having a crisis of faith. But that's not the Bible's fault. It's your own.

Scientifically speaking, there is no evidence whatsoever that humans lived for a 1,000 years. That is not biologically possible with humans. If humans ever were essentially immortal like that, they would not have had the types of bodies we do today. They would be more like a jellyfish or something which could recreate itself perpetually without end. It's much better to read scripture symbolically, than literally.

You miss the point of it when you look to it to teach scientific information. It also is not a book about modern medicine either, nor about cosmology, or astrophysics, etc. Trying to make it that, is sure a recipe for a failed faith, and the atheism you fear. It's not evolution you should fear, but how you are approaching faith itself.


Absolutely, yes science is better at explaining how nature works than scripture. Scripture is not about that. It does not offer any scientific explanations for how life takes the shapes and forms it does, or how the species we see relate to the past. There's nothing scientific about it. That's not what scripture is about.


Such as? For myself, understanding how evolution works has helped my faith in God. Why does it threaten yours? Are you sure you're not referring to it threatening your beliefs, and not your faith? Beliefs can be in error, such as approaching scripture as a book of science, rather than about teaching values and faith in God.

Don't mistake beliefs with faith. It's more than okay to change how you've thought and believed about these things, in the process of an evolving faith. Faith is like the trunk of the tree, while beliefs are like the leaves on its branches that serve the tree for a season, and are replaced with new ones as the tree grows and matures.

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Hi Windwalker. Good morning. Msg 6. Why do I think believing in the theory of evolution creates havoc to a person’s faith? Because I have seen it. Don’t worry I’m not talking about myself. I never have believed in the theory of evolution and never will. It’s like water off a duck’s back to me. But I’m concerned when I see others with so little faith in Chr-stianity and I wonder why that should be. Yahshua the Messiah, our Saviour and soon coming king constantly urged his disciples to have more faith.

Yes, you are right Windwalker. I would agree that millions of Chr-stians believe in the theory of evolution, but corresponding to this, how many millions have also lost their faith and become atheists? I know from my personal experience of my faith I could never lose faith in the Word, no matter what others do around me, or what I have to experience : - and that faith comes from believing solidly in the Word. I believe every word. To people I have spoken to who have accepted the theory of evolution yet also claim to have faith in the Bible, I find that actually, they have no faith. I don’t know what they have, but it’s not faith in the Word. And the next thing you know they drop as an overripe fruit in to the pits of atheism. Cause and effect. We all know what that is all about, but if we apply this spiritually we have to accept that what we believe, if it is not Biblical, is going to have an adverse effect on our spiritual life.

In terms of the evolution of the beliefs around Yahweh in the Bible, I disagree. Theology would have you believe that Yahweh – the Mighty One of the Israelites – was developed. That his attributes were developed, that he went from being a local mighty one, to the Mighty One for the entire world and so and so forth. But I disagree with all that. The Bible is very consistent in showing that Yahweh’s character and role in the world has been the same. In terms of evolution in regards to religion, well my faith prides itself in being the same type of faith as the apostolic assembly. Nothing’s changed.

You say we shouldn’t treat the Bible as a historical or scientific paper. No it’s not entirely the same is it, but it can be used in a similar manner. Our Saviour, Yahshua the Messiah expressed belief in the Hebrew Scriptures and the stories contained therein, so why shouldn’t we? Was the perfect Saviour, somehow imperfect? No he was perfect and he had a full faith in all the accounts of the Hebrew Scriptures even to the point of saying that the only sign of his Messiahship would be 3 days and 3 nights in the earth, the same as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the great fish. That’s 72 hours. No, Yahshua believed. Anyone that professes to believe in the Bible and follow Yahshua’s example should believe too.

You say that it would be impossible for a human to live for just under 1,000 years and yet in the Millennium when the 1,000 year Kingdom is set up, how long do you think people will live for? You see, the Bible harmonizes from Genesis to Revelation. Today, you still have people living up to 100 years old or more, that’s 1/10th of life of Methuselah. With conditions being much more favourable, people wouldn’t have aged as they do today.

You say the Bible is basically a book of nice lessons without substance. Yet I strongly disagree. The Bible is about creation. It is about history. It is about life. It is about Yahweh’s character. It is about prophesy. It is about genealogies and so much more. You don’t have to worry about me approaching faith incorrectly. It’s those who only have a smidgeon of faith in the Word of Yahweh that ought to be careful and they are playing with fire, professing to know Yahweh but actually having little or no spiritual life of substance.

2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that every scripture is profitable for something. Yahweh’s Word is truth the Bible tells us, but so many who believe in the theory of evolution would tell you the opposite, and they don’t even realise what they’re doing to the Word by marginalising it.

I think you’re the second person to say that you think the theory of evolution has threatened my beliefs. It hasn’t. That’s me speaking the plainest truth to you that I can. I am amused though that you would think so. I believe in the Word 100%. If I were a reed shaken by the wind, a spiritually weak person, I wouldn’t be here on RF.

If faith is as the trunk of the tree as you have described, the theory of evolution is like gangrene in the trunk of that tree that is eating up the faith and as a result all belief (leaves) and faith will be lost.

Messianic Israelite said:

Hi firedragon. Good morning. Msg 5. Evolution may be an old theory. I have never looked in to it myself. Doesn’t make it right though does it? If the theory of evolution did exist previously, it would have been contested by the worshippers of Yahweh. In that sense, it wouldn’t be a modern idea to have conflict between belief in the Bible and evolution. The Word of Yahweh is straightforward and opposes all deviations from the Word. That’s strongly shown in the Torah Law in passages such as Deuteronomy 13:10. That has been the case for millennia. Nothing strange about it.

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Okay. So what's the relevance to my post?

I understand that your theological teachings may not be aligned with evolution. Thats fine and its your prerogative. But how is that relevant to my post?

Cheers.

Messianic Israelite said:

Good morning Jayhawker. Msg #2. My faith is secure. I have never felt threatened by the theory of evolution because I have great faith in the Word of Yahweh. Nonetheless, I’m concerned for others whose faith might be already weak, accepting a theory that in essence makes them Bible critics rather than faith believers.

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I just love it when folks, irresponsibly ignorant when it comes to science, pretentiously walk their dogma through their neighbor's garden without a pooper-scooper.

Messianic Israelite said:

People today mostly believe in the theory of evolution. Why they believe in the theory of evolution is because they tell themselves that it is the most evidence-based explanation of how life arose on this earth. What people don’t seem to understand is the havoc believing in such a theory has on the faith of a person. Having never believed in the theory of evolution myself, I can easily identify this as a major proponent for atheism in these end times,

But my question is this. Did the Bible evolve upwards? Evolution is applied to many things in life; should the Bible be one of them? The Bible teaches that at the beginning of the creation of man, people’s longevity of life was far beyond that of what it is today. Methuselah, one of our oldest forefathers, lived for nearly a whole millennium. This comparison to the age of which we live today means we have not evolved, but that entropy is a more plausible explanation.

Why do people believe in the theory of evolution? Is it really a better explanation for the development and origin of life than that which the Bible teaches? I believe in microevolution because this can be observed. I do not believe in macroevolution which is an upward, beneficial increase in complexity as evolutionists claim happened millions of times between bacteria and man. Macroevolution cannot be observed. What would normally be considered a ridiculous idea (like a worm becoming a man) can seem credible by expanding the amount of time. The theory is wholly inadequate. The fossil record express a complete lack of transitional fossils showing one kind of animal changing into another. The amount of damage this theory has done to faith is insurmountable. And for what? Believing in the theory of evolution can only be described as a blind faith.

All you’re doing when believing in the theory of evolution is trusting in man, rather than Yahweh as Jeremiah 17:5-6 states:

"Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who draws strength from mere flesh
and whose heart turns away from Yahweh.
6 That person will be like a bush in the wastelands;
they will not see prosperity when it comes.
They will dwell in the parched places of the desert,
in a salt land where no one lives."

This scripture tells us those that trust in man are cursed. The theory of evolution is a man-made theory. I think it was either in 2007 or 2005 when the Presbyterian Ch-rch passed a resolution by a lopsided vote of 353-150 if memory serves, reaffirming its support of evolutionary theory and encouraging the teaching of ‘reliable scientific knowledge’ in public schools. Many religious organisations are selling out because they don’t take the Bible literally. How could anyone squeeze the theory of evolution in to the Bible? It doesn't work.

Atheists will call Creationists blind, but isn’t the reverse true? There is no observable evidence for macroevolution. Further, macro-evolution requires millions of just-right mutations. On the contrary, there is plenty of visible evidence of Intelligent Design. To prove something by the scientific method it must be repeatable, measurable and observable, none of which things the theory of evolution is. And if anyone thinks they can simultaneously believe in the theory of evolution as well as Yahweh you are mistaken. Yahweh created all life on earth within 6 literal 24 hour days and rested on the 7th. Yahweh did not wait millions of years for man to evolve out of meagre creatures. How ridiculous. Yahweh sets clear bounds even within the animal kingdom. Man was never anything other than man.

There was a theory quite popular in the 1970’s I hear that said ‘G-d is dead’ or ‘Yahweh is dead’. This would be an easy theory to believe in if one believed in the theory of evolution because it shows that Yahweh doesn’t care about human kind. That he has left us all to our own devices without instructions, vision or clarity. That all things will eventually get better, they’ll evolve.

Did the Bible evolve upwards? No, the message of the Bible is the same: fear Elohim and keep his commandments. Rather I would have to conclude that this world has degraded downwards.

Romans 1:25 says:
"for that they exchanged the truth of Yahweh for a lie
and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.
Amen."

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The same mistake you're making. Yes, the Bible evolved upwards. Humans markedly went from savage tribal people with rigidity to laws to those who believed that an eye for an eye makes the world blind, who tried to free slaves, and who made positive changes in the world.
And yet here is the lie: the mankind is a simple animal, not made in the image of God but just another stop in the long chain of evolution. No, human may be part of evolution, but unlike Darwin's godless vision we are growing towards something. Also, you ought to examine when things like dinosaurs first showed up. They are clearly a tool to push secular agenda.
The Atlantean Conspiracy: Dinosaur Hoax - Dinosaurs Never Existed!
I believe in theistic (non-"survival of the fittest" environmental) evolution. Beings adapt to changes, but they don't expect to survive by betraying and killing each other. He who lives by the sword will die by the sword. The lie therefore undermines this, and attempts to get humans to devolve into savage competition by telling them that they will be the ones who are fittest. Wrong. God's plan is for all humans to be saved, and to be co-creators for the Creator. To be like God.

Aupmanyav said:

That I think is a winner for opposite reasons. I have not come across a sillier post in my participation in various forums for some two decades. So, hail PruePhillip. You are a gem.
I think Messianic Israelite also deserves an appreciation for his posts. Let me go through some of his posts.
Oh, he lives in UK. I thought only US people had this kind of thoughts.

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So you don't believe this idea that things 'fall' because the space is bent? That the
moon doesn't orbit the earth but it's 'falling' in a straight line as it swings past the
earth - in an invisible trough in the sky?

Brickjectivity said:

My point remains. People don't become atheists because of Evolution. Its a gift not a curse. What you think is silly is a matter of taste. Some think art is silly or that music is.

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Well, then you shouldn't try to speak for atheists.

As far as art and music being silly, most don't rely on it to plan their next gazillion years after they die.

PruePhillip said:

So you don't believe this idea that things 'fall' because the space is bent? That the
moon doesn't orbit the earth but it's 'falling' in a straight line as it swings past the
earth - in an invisible trough in the sky?

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Spacetime is curved, not just space. And, in fact, it is the time curvature that is dominant in weak gravitational fields.

It isn't a *straight* line. It is a geodesic: a line of *maximal* distance in the four-dimensional manifold (and the distance isn't the usual Pythagorean distance). It isn't a trough.

For example, a great circle on a sphere isn't 'straight', but it is a geodesic.