Comprehend
Res Ipsa Loquitur
NuGnostic said:
somebody please kill me.
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Is communism or athiesm to blame for 100 million deaths last century?
- Thread starter Comprehend
- Start date
somebody please kill me.
Fluffy
A fool
I think you are looking at trends within a communist environment and attributing those trends to the incidental atheism. For example when you say
Therefore it does not follow that the deaths can be attributed to godlessness but rather to the values of communism (and not even communism but that specific form of communism).
The seeming difference between acts done by atheists and acts done by theists is that often, the latter atrocities appear to contain some sort of religious justification or, at the very least, spiritual excuse. However, the position "there is no God" is not a platform from which many inductive or deductive conclusions can be made and so atheistic justification for atrocities is lacking. If there is a link between atheism and atrocity, this link is blurred much more than the theistic link for this reason.
then this is surely a product of communism. If the society had been a humanistic one (ie the importance of the individual would have been emphasised to a degree even higher than many current democractic states) then this devaluing would surely not have occured.
Therefore it does not follow that the deaths can be attributed to godlessness but rather to the values of communism (and not even communism but that specific form of communism).
The seeming difference between acts done by atheists and acts done by theists is that often, the latter atrocities appear to contain some sort of religious justification or, at the very least, spiritual excuse. However, the position "there is no God" is not a platform from which many inductive or deductive conclusions can be made and so atheistic justification for atrocities is lacking. If there is a link between atheism and atrocity, this link is blurred much more than the theistic link for this reason.
vandervalley
Active Member
I think that atheism does not encourage killing peope; HOWEVER atheists are prone to commit sins due to their lack of 'moral restraints' (such as hell or punishment for their sins)
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Just as theists are prone to commit just as heinous acts due to their feeling "exempt" from punishment.vandervalley said:
MaddLlama
Obstructor of justice
vandervalley said:
Why is it that if a person has no hell to fear, it automatically makes them less moral? Why is "fear of hell" a good motivation for behaving? I think that's a pathetic and incredibly short sighted reason for not "sinning".
Athiests don't lack "moral restraint", they simply don't have the same restricting morals as certain religions dictate. Just because atheists don't follow your moral code doesn't make them bad people.
MaddLlama
Obstructor of justice
I'm still not understanding how you're actually making a connection. It seems to be a very weak one. Atheism is a position, not a religion or belief system, and people who run communist governments hardly commit atrocities while thinking "I'm going to make all these people not believe in God". Communism isn't about religion at all, the assosiation of atheism with communism is incidental, and it doesn't have as much influence on the government system as a religion has on a monarchy who's king is "of god". There just isn't the same connection, and until you can make that connection clear, then your argument is weak.
The attrocities commited that are mentioned in the OP were mostly commited under the auspices of the Communist Manifesto. This basically called for State control of all ideological substrates: arts, sciences and religion specifically.
Subtract state-socialism from atheism and what do you have? A professed non-belief in deity or deities. That's it, nothing more or less.
Subtract state-socialism from atheism and what do you have? A professed non-belief in deity or deities. That's it, nothing more or less.
arielmessenger
Member
It is not possible to separate Jews from Communism. While Jewish-born Marx decried religion as the opiate of the people, it is a historical fact that it was Russian Jews that dominated Russian Communism in its formative years. 80% of Russian Commissars were Jewish before WW II. So the religion of Judaism has to be factored into the Communist "atheist" equation somewhere, it can't be a coincidence. What ideology within Judaism leads to seeing humanity as separable into two groups, one worthy and one not?
Comprehend
Res Ipsa Loquitur
Jaiket said:
I have already answered both of these questions and if you think these get you anywhere, I would suggest you re-read the OP (again?).
Did anyone read the OP before posting their standard athiest defense? I haven't noticed anything that addressed what I said...
Comprehend
Res Ipsa Loquitur
Ozzie said:
uh. yes. a BELIEF that God does not exist would be the *belief* in this case.
Comprehend
Res Ipsa Loquitur
Godlike said:
good, we are getting somewhere. I agree, and that non-belief or rather that belief that god does not exist (to satisfy oz) is what I addressed in the OP.
Comprehend
Res Ipsa Loquitur
arielmessenger said:
It is not possible to separate Jews from Communism. While Jewish-born Marx decried religion as the opiate of the people, it is a historical fact that it was Russian Jews that dominated Russian Communism in its formative years. 80% of Russian Commissars were Jewish before WW II. So the religion of Judaism has to be factored into the Communist "atheist" equation somewhere, it can't be a coincidence. What ideology within Judaism leads to seeing humanity as separable into two groups, one worthy and one not?
would you like to back that junk up with some evidence?
Yerda
Veteran Member
This OP?comprehend said:
This topic comes from a discussion I was having with Sunstone (S) and Revasser (R) in Sunstone's thread on tolerance. I hope I can accurately convey the issues of the discussion here. If I do not, feel free to amend the Issue that should be discussed, but here it goes.
I made the claim that while religion has been responsible for many atrocities which I cannot defend, I said that athiesm was also responsible for over 100 million deaths in the last century in communist countries such as the former Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia. S and R both said that it did not make sense to blame athiesm but rather the poor implementation of communism as well as crazy/evil individuals who were in power.
My response was that it was my belief that a general belief in God led societies toward a respect for individual human life and a desire for peace when properly practiced despite which religion one happened to practice, pointing to Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddism, Wicca, Paganism, etc. All of these believe in very different Gods but when practiced correctly, lead to peace and respect for human life. On the other hand, I argued that a society such as communism which was athiest tended to not value individual human life and the godlessness led to the deaths of millions upon millions of innocent people at the hands of their own governments. The bottom line being that athiesm was just as responsible for death and human suffering as anyone might claim religion has been.
Now, I am certain that I have probably done a better job arguing my side and not a good enough job arguing S and R's position so I would recommend that people might view S and R's argument in the thread titled Is Religious Tolerance a Bad Idea?To get a better perspective.
That being said. I suppose the question is, is athiesm just as much to blame for the deaths under communism as religion is for the deaths under things such as 9/11, the spanish inquisition, etc etc?
Please, help out an imbecile and highlight the text that deals with the questions I asked.
I apologise for not getting into the specifics of your topic yet, but I felt I needed some clarification. While we are at it though, do you feel '100 million deaths in the last century in communist countries such as the former Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia' would have been avoided if it weren't for atheism?
How much research did you put into the figure of '100 million'?
Do you appreciate that atheism and religion are not exclusive?
Most importantly though, where did you answer my questions?