What is above scrutiny?

ppp · Sep 1, 2020

Joe W said:
There may be things that are beyond our capability to understand. I see no reason to accept that limit on any specific thing until that limit is demonstrated to my satisfaction. Someone merely saying that I ought to is not good enough.

Quintessence said:
Why not?

Why should it be good enough?

Quintessence said:
Might someone else's values be different and, therefore, such things are good enough for some people?

Clearly. And I will retract that slightly. I should have said that no one should be taught that their goals ought to be subsumed by another's. If they make the choice to submit on their own, then that is their choice.

Quintessence said:
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends. I advise caution in too strongly praising the virtues of scrutiny lest one forget the situations for which scrutiny does not serve well.

You're definitely wrong there. The sometimes yes, sometimes no part is correct. But that is because the consequences of following unexamined urges are a die roll with poor odds. Knowing oneself, the likely outcome of one's actions, and gaining consent from those whom your choices may effect is the responsible and empathetic path. The moral path.

Quintessence said:
Sure I am. I am in my life and you are in yours. Is that some sort of problem? Too bad.

This is a cute post-hoc deflection, but you were not talking about just your life. You were slopping your claims onto everyone else. For future reference, the first person possessive pronoun is "my".

Quintessence said:
Putting most of our experiences under excessive and unnecessary scrutiny robs life experiences of their splendor, is bane to the arts, and can negatively impact mental health. Instead of simply enjoying something and valuing emotions, reasons are demanded and in this demand and dissection, the core of the experience is ruined.

Milton Platt · Sep 1, 2020

SigurdReginson said:
Is there anything on this earth or in heaven that is above scrutiny? Should it be? Why should we not question everything?

Is there even ever one time we shouldn't have doubts?

There is nothing that can be stated with 100% certainty. Belief is (or should be) in proportion to the quantity and nature of the evidence supporting the claim. Of course, the more extraordinary the claim, the more and better the evidence needs to be.

Quintessence · Sep 1, 2020

Joe W said:
Why should it be good enough?

Any number of reasons. Everybody gets to discover those for themselves and what works and what doesn't in their own lives as influenced by their circumstances. Some folks may simply want to focus on other things with their limited lifespans. There are plenty of other reasons one might come up with as to why it's good enough.

Joe W said:
Clearly. And I will retract that slightly. I should have said that no one should be taught that their goals ought to be subsumed by another's. If they make the choice to submit on their own, then that is their choice.

It depends on one's cultural upbringing, it seems. Cultures that put strong value on what is sometimes called "individualism" will think in this way, while those who put stronger value on "collectivism" view it differently. For those who think more about the community over the individual, putting community first - or letting oneself be subsumed by the greater good - is considered the virtuous path. As with many things, it boils down to one's own set of values.

Joe W said:
You're definitely wrong there. The sometimes yes, sometimes no part is correct. But that is because the consequences of following unexamined urges are a die roll with poor odds. Knowing oneself, the likely outcome of one's actions, and gaining consent from those whom your choices may effect is the responsible and empathetic path. The moral path.

What's your perspective on intuition? Do you value it, trust it, and/or use it? How does trusting in ourselves through things like intuition play into the topic the OP presents?

Joe W said:
You were slopping your claims onto everyone else.

No, I wasn't. I literally said in my first post I was making observations. You seem to have a fixation on claims. Why is that?

ppp · Sep 1, 2020

Quintessence said:
Any number of reasons. Everybody gets to discover those for themselves and what works and what doesn't in their own lives as influenced by their circumstances. Some folks may simply want to focus on other things with their limited lifespans. There are plenty of other reasons one might come up with as to why it's good enough.

Oh. You are talking about the folks that don't care whether about the truth of the situation. Meh.

Quintessence said:
It depends on one's cultural upbringing, it seems. Cultures that put strong value on what is sometimes called "individualism" will think in this way, while those who put stronger value on "collectivism" view it differently. For those who think more about the community over the individual, putting community first - or letting oneself be subsumed by the greater good - is considered the virtuous path. As with many things, it boils down to one's own set of values.

If you were making a point, I don't see it.

Quintessence said:
What's your perspective on intuition? Do you value it, trust it, and/or use it?

Intuition is a rapid sub-conscious assessment of a situation where pulls on ones knowledge, experience and analytical abilities. Sure, I value it. How much I trust it depends on the circumstance. I trust and use my intuition with cooking, baking and crafting machinery. I wouldn't give a plug nickel for my intuition on finding directions or selecting music appropriate to the situation.

Quintessence said:
How does trusting in ourselves through things like intuition play into the topic the OP presents?

I don't see that it does. Having doubts does not stop me from acting quickly and decisively when I need to.

Quintessence said:
No, I wasn't. I literally said in my first post I was making observations. You seem to have a fixation on claims. Why is that?

Oh, good grief. Why are you dithering over the word claim? You made seven bald assertions in first post. Those are claims. What's the big freaking deal? Don't you believe the words that your wrote?

Onoma · Sep 1, 2020

The closest I could come up with is " nothing ", because it destroys itself through perception

McBell · Sep 1, 2020

SigurdReginson said:
Is there anything on this earth or in heaven that is above scrutiny?

No

SigurdReginson said:
Should it be?

No

SigurdReginson said:
Why should we not question everything?

We should

SigurdReginson said:
Is there even ever one time we shouldn't have doubts?

no

Thief · Sep 1, 2020

SigurdReginson said:
Is there anything on this earth or in heaven that is above scrutiny? Should it be? Why should we not question everything?

Is there even ever one time we shouldn't have doubts?

God's Favored got tossed out of heaven

there seems to be.....scrutiny involved

Howard Is · Sep 1, 2020

sun rise said:
There are those who disagree: Kabir, Ramakrishna, the Avatar in His many forms and many others.

Is there any proof that their certainty was justified ?

I have characterised cocaine as ‘30 minutes of unjustifiable confidence’.

Perhaps the people you mention have high levels of endogenous dopamine.

I’m thinking of Sadhguru as a current example. He exhibits that undefeatable confidence, and is very popular as a result, but he has made some fundamental and even dangerous mistakes.

Then there is Donald Trump. Maybe he’s a habitual liar ... or maybe he has a brain that actually believes he is right. That is the deep mystery of psychopaths and narcissists. And that confidence is contagious, which is why psychopaths can be so popular.

Rise · Sep 1, 2020

SigurdReginson said:
Is there anything on this earth or in heaven that is above scrutiny? Should it be? Why should we not question everything?

Is there even ever one time we shouldn't have doubts?

Biblically speaking, questioning God's word is what caused the fall of mankind to begin with. Technically disobeying God's Word is what did it, but doubting God's Word was a necessary first step to that.

The Bible tells us that God's word is above scrutiny because God is the very definition of truth. So to question God is to reject truth itself.

What is the harm in doing that? The Bible tells us that rejecting God's word as truth, and going against it, is what caused creation and mankind to fall into death. So I'd say there's definitely some things you shouldn't question because the consequences for yourself are dire.

ppp · Sep 1, 2020

Rise said:
Biblically speaking, questioning God's word is what caused the fall of mankind to begin with. Technically disobeying God's Word is what did it, but doubting God's Word was a necessary first step to that.

The Bible tells us that God's word is above scrutiny because God is the very definition of truth. So to question God is to reject truth itself.

I doubt that.

Thief · Sep 1, 2020

Rise said:
Biblically speaking, questioning God's word is what caused the fall of mankind to begin with. Technically disobeying God's Word is what did it, but doubting God's Word was a necessary first step to that.

The Bible tells us that God's word is above scrutiny because God is the very definition of truth. So to question God is to reject truth itself.

What is the harm in doing that? The Bible tells us that rejecting God's word as truth, and going against it, is what caused creation and mankind to fall into death. So I'd say there's definitely some things in reality you shouldn't question because the consequences for yourself are dire.

if you don't ask.....you won't know
hence the garden event
which is not a fail
Adam and Eve passed the test

it's not the question that initiates death

Man was always an item to die

the spirit of Man is a different topic

amorphous_constellation · Sep 1, 2020

SigurdReginson said:
Is there even ever one time we shouldn't have doubts?

You may want read and think on the 68th verse of Hávamál. I take that to be a verse not necessarily designed to the feed the ego, but to show you that you needn't tread into trouble. Seek the sunshine instead of the darkness, and live in way that isn't questionable, rather than in a way that is magnet for criticism. And then you live in a way that is hard to criticize or cast doubt at, and that makes a person stronger where they instead risk falling apart. I think that in many ways, a cogent person will give enough criticism to themselves, and this will give them the certainty he needs as opposed to the 'ego-feeding' he may want.

Brickjectivity · Sep 1, 2020

SigurdReginson said:
Is there anything on this earth or in heaven that is above scrutiny? Should it be? Why should we not question everything?

Is there even ever one time we shouldn't have doubts?

If we were perfect beings we could probably do that, but we can't. We just can't question every thing.

SigurdReginson · Sep 1, 2020

ideogenous_mover said:
You may want read and think on the 68th verse of Hávamál. I take that to be a verse not necessarily designed to the feed the ego, but to show you that you needn't tread into trouble. Seek the sunshine instead of the darkness, and live in way that isn't questionable, rather than in a way that is magnet for criticism. And then you live in a way that is hard to criticize or cast doubt at, and that makes a person stronger where they instead risk falling apart. I think that in many ways, a cogent person will give enough criticism to themselves, and this will give them the certainty he needs as opposed to the 'ego-feeding' he may want.

Interesting, and I'd agree. Honest introspection and adjustment in the face of that introspection is useful for sure. There's nothing more harmful to the self than to wallow in the morass of ignorance and self delusion; to seek the darkness of comfort and the lull of a false sense of security. There's nothing to hide behind when exposed to the light of the bare truth, and when there's nothing to hide behind, that pure fire burning from within becomes obvious to everyone.

In living a way that is honest and true, who you are becomes apparent to all, and they will recognize and see that value in you without you even having to say a word.

You know, I was looking for a Havamal stanza to have tattooed in runes, and this one has special significance for me. This might be the one... Thank you for that!

SigurdReginson · Sep 1, 2020

Brickjectivity said:
If we were perfect beings we could probably do that, but we can't. We just can't question every thing.

True! We should try when we recognize that we aren't questioning something, though. When we question more things, it becomes easier and easier to question other things. When we give up and accept something as true is when we stop asking questions, and stop learning as a result.

Some things are worthy of trust, but even those things should be looked at once over in the light of new and better evidence. We should also look over them when we aren't exactly sure why we trust them in the first place. Intellectual honesty is an invaluable thing.

Brickjectivity · Sep 1, 2020

SigurdReginson said:
True! We should try when we recognize that we aren't questioning something, though. When we question more things, it becomes easier and easier to question other things. When we give up and accept something as true is when we stop asking questions, and stop learning as a result.

Some things are worthy of trust, but even those things should be looked at once over in the light of new and better evidence. We should also look over them when we aren't exactly sure why we trust them in the first place. Intellectual honesty is an invaluable thing.

Can you give an example?

Rise · Sep 2, 2020

Joe W said:
I doubt that.

Your doubt doesn't mean it's not true.

And if true, your doubt doesn't prevent you from being bound to the consequences of that truth.

Anymore than your doubt of gravity prevents you from being bound by the reality of it's effects.

Thief said:
if you don't ask.....you won't know

Ask what?

Ask God if what He said was true?

By definition, according to the Bible, it would be impossible for God to be a liar because He is the very definition of Truth. He is what defines what is true. All that is not in alignment with Him is false by definition.

And if you think that's not true, how would you verify that? Who would you ask that is in greater authority than God to vouch for God?

I'm reminded of Hebrews 6:13
When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself,

hence the garden event
which is not a fail
Adam and Eve passed the test

According to whom? You can't state your opinion as though it were a fact, without giving any reasons or evidence for why you think something is true.

What you said is not true according to the Bible.

The Bible says they failed.
They disobeyed the one thing they were explicitly told not to do.
And they suffered the exact consequence God warned them would happen: Being subject to death.

The entire message of the Bible from beginning to end is the story of God redeeming mankind from that failure to restore man back to a state of being in unified relationship with God, eternal life, and creation being restored.

it's not the question that initiates death

As I said, it was technically the act of disobedience that caused their death.

But it was giving in to their doubts about God's word that led to their decision to disobey.

Man was always an item to die

Again, according to whom? You can't state your opinion as though it's a fact without reasons and evidence for what you believe.

What we can say is that what you said is not true according to the Bible. Which says God created man to live eternally with Him, it was not His intent for man to disobey and die, so He sacrificed Himself to rescue man from death, and will restore that which was lost allowing us to live with God for eternity again.

chinu · Sep 2, 2020

SigurdReginson said:
Why should we not question everything?

Whom to question ? For that you need to believe in God first, do you ?

Is there even ever one time we shouldn't have doubts?

No.
Because the time when ALL doubts will get clear, you will NO longer remain the questioner.
At that time "Questioner" turns into "Answer-er" itself.

SigurdReginson · Sep 2, 2020

chinu said:
Whom to question ? For that you need to believe in God first, do you ?

I don't see what belief in god has to do with it. Why does one need belief in god?

No.
Because the time when ALL doubts will get clear, you will NO longer remain the questioner.
At that time "Questioner" turns into "Answer-er" itself.

Isn't the point of questioning to recieve answers? Has there ever been a day in your life when you had answers that were good answers, but then you discovered a better answer out there?

Why does one need god to recieve the best answers, and why does belief in god provide those best answers?

ppp · Sep 2, 2020

Rise said:
Your doubt doesn't mean it's not true.

And if true, your doubt doesn't prevent you from being bound to the consequences of that truth.

Correct. My doubt does not make any claim that has ever been made by anyone in the human history not true. And if true, my doubt doesn't prevent me from being bound to the consequences of the truth of any of those claims. Neither does yours.
So what?

What is above scrutiny?

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