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The Bible a sure Spiritual Guide.

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Or the one Jesus wanted for all of us.

It is your choice.

Regards Tony
Which to Baha'is, is the one Baha'u'llah says is true. The NT stories of a dying and rising Jesus, for Baha'is, is not the true story is it. Now, 2000 years later, Baha'is tell us the truth, that story was symbolic, not real. Did God or Jesus really want us to know that? And let the gospel writers make up a story about Jesus coming back to life and ascending into the clouds?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Which to Baha'is, is the one Baha'u'llah says is true. The NT stories of a dying and rising Jesus, for Baha'is, is not the true story is it. Now, 2000 years later, Baha'is tell us the truth, that story was symbolic, not real. Did God or Jesus really want us to know that? And let the gospel writers make up a story about Jesus coming back to life and ascending into the clouds?

Consider that the doctrines about Jesus and His relationship to God were formulated as main stream requirements only in the late 300's, prior to that there were many that did not have that mindset.

Also, the incorrect doctrines were then addressed by Muhammad in the Mid 600's, who showed that Jesus was a Messenger from the One God. As history of religions has shown, by that time the corrupted text had become intrinsic mindset and men, far too proud of their own understandings, were not humble enough to consider the Message of Muhammad.

I see It is the Church itself that squashed any open thought as to what the Gospel stories could mean, they directed those stories to suit a narrative of whole scale mind control over the lower classes.

You, of course, can choose to see it how you wish to CG. Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Consider that the doctrines about Jesus and His relationship to God were formulated as main stream requirements only in the late 300's, prior to that there were many that did not have that mindset.

Also, the incorrect doctrines were then addressed by Muhammad in the Mid 600's, who showed that Jesus was a Messenger from the One God. As history of religions has shown, by that time the corrupted text had become intrinsic mindset and men, far too proud of their own understandings, were not humble enough to consider the Message of Muhammad.

I see It is the Church itself that squashed any open thought as to what the Gospel stories could mean, they directed those stories to suit a narrative of whole scale mind control over the lower classes.

You, of course, can choose to see it how you wish to CG. Regards Tony
Yes, and I see that God thought it best to not have Jesus write things down. That way we could all be in this forum together debating all of this.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, and I see that God thought it best to not have Jesus write things down. That way we could all be in this forum together debating all of this.

I see that just reflects the progression of learning. We live in an ever advancing civilisation, our part is to find, embrace and live to the Covernant given in our short span of life on this earth.

What holds us back, as I see it, is if we think that we have importance in self. This life to me, is ridding ourselves of the worldly self and becoming naught but a reflection of the self of God.

We have a gift in this age. We were given Abdul'baha to be a perfect example as to what a life of service is. What it is to be a true person of faith.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I see that just reflects the progression of learning. We live in an ever advancing civilisation, our part is to find, embrace and live to the Covernant given in our short span of life on this earth.

What holds us back, as I see it, is if we think that we have importance in self. This life to me, is ridding ourselves of the worldly self and becoming naught but a reflection of the self of God.

We have a gift in this age. We were given Abdul'baha to be a perfect example as to what a life of service is. What it is to be a true person of faith.

Regards Tony
Consider that the doctrines about Jesus and His relationship to God were formulated as main stream requirements only in the late 300's, prior to that there were many that did not have that mindset.

Also, the incorrect doctrines were then addressed by Muhammad in the Mid 600's, who showed that Jesus was a Messenger from the One God. As history of religions has shown, by that time the corrupted text had become intrinsic mindset and men, far too proud of their own understandings, were not humble enough to consider the Message of Muhammad.

I see It is the Church itself that squashed any open thought as to what the Gospel stories could mean, they directed those stories to suit a narrative of whole scale mind control over the lower classes.
So no one knew the true teachings of Jesus. All they had was the hearsay story that some of the followers of Jesus wrote. Those don't get formulated until the late 300's. Did anyone have a true version of Christianity prior to that?

Then the Church "squashed" what the stories written years after Jesus might mean? So when was there ever anything that could be called "true" Christianity? By 621AD, Christianity had been replaced with a newer message from God? A message that corrected the errors in the beliefs that Christians held? So were Christians supposed to recognize this man from Arabia as the return of Christ and follow him?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So no one knew the true teachings of Jesus. All they had was the hearsay story that some of the followers of Jesus wrote. Those don't get formulated until the late 300's. Did anyone have a true version of Christianity prior to that?

Then the Church "squashed" what the stories written years after Jesus might mean? So when was there ever anything that could be called "true" Christianity? By 621AD, Christianity had been replaced with a newer message from God? A message that corrected the errors in the beliefs that Christians held? So were Christians supposed to recognize this man from Arabia as the return of Christ and follow him?

Truth is relevant CG. Look at the Bible, it teaches us that. Each Prophet/Messenger fulfilled the Covenant of the Faith before it, annulled the it teachings and made all things new, a new heaven an a new earth.

At the same time the Messages are part of the whole, they give us purpose at the start and will give us purpose until the end. They are our beginning and they are our end.

It is your choice to see the merit in the Message of Muhammad, but do not think that will be easy, Muhammad again taught Christians what true submission really is. It is living in the memory of God in our daily lives. Prayer, Laws, Fasting and community solidarity, working for the good of all.

This is now global. We can no longer think we are the only ones that have ever followed God. Everyone around the world has had a Messenger, or been inspired to consider and embrace our oneness in one way or another.

Some old aboriginal elders taught me this. They could see no difference in the Message of Christ and of Baha'u'llah and their strong connection to country and family, their hearts embraced the Love and the need to build strong communities. It was only the local ministers that stood on the pulpit saying Baha'i was the antichrist that put a halt to a wonderful change in this community. Those elders are gone, the ministers do not have power over the mind of many and the community embraced materialism. The problems of a disintegrating old world order, now rear the ugly head all too often.

In my study of the writings, I see America is in great danger, as the current racial motivate events appear to me are the convulsions that are distracting America from a greater danger. I see there are powers hell bent on silencing America and democracy. Note this following passage, note that these racial events are a prelude to a greater catastrophe (I put text bold, size and colour to stress what I see is an important warning);

"....No less serious is the stress and strain imposed on the fabric of American society through the fundamental and persistent neglect, by the governed and governors alike, of the supreme, the inescapable and urgent duty—so repeatedly and graphically represented and stressed by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in His arraignment of the basic weaknesses in the social fabric of the nation—of remedying, while there is yet time, through a revolutionary change in the concept and attitude of the average white American toward his Negro fellow citizen, a situation which, if allowed to drift, will, in the words of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, cause the streets of American cities to run with blood, aggravating thereby the havoc which the fearful weapons of destruction, raining from the air, and amassed by a ruthless, a vigilant, a powerful and inveterate enemy, will wreak upon those same cities.

From letters to America - 1947 to 1957 - Citadel Of Faith: Messages To America, 1947 1957 by Shoghi Effendi


We can never say we were not warned, we can say we chose not to look and consider the warnings. Regards Tony
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Truth is relevant CG. Look at the Bible, it teaches us that. Each Prophet/Messenger fulfilled the Covenant of the Faith before it, annulled the it teachings and made all things new, a new heaven an a new earth.
In another thread that very thing came up. How many wives do Christians say God allows? If it is not many or at least three, then God changed his mind with what he told Muhammad? There are inconsistencies. People and religious thought are evolving, but they aren't annulling the religions that came before. Even though, some religions have tried to eradicate the religions of other people.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In another thread that very thing came up. How many wives do Christians say God allows? If it is not many or at least three, then God changed his mind with what he told Muhammad? There are inconsistencies. People and religious thought are evolving, but they aren't annulling the religions that came before. Even though, some religions have tried to eradicate the religions of other people.

That has been explained in full by Baha'u'llah, but these quotes say it all; (from this link Is Religion Subject to Change? )

"...In brief, every one of the divine religions contains essential ordinances, which are not subject to change, and material ordinances, which are abrogated according to the exigencies of time." – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 106.

"The seen is the changing, the unseen is the unchanging." – Plato

"He who rejects change is the architect of decay. The only human institution which rejects progress is the cemetery." – Harold Wilson

"Religion will not regain its old power until it can face change in the same spirit as does science." – Alfred North Whitehead

"The religion of God is one religion, but it must ever be renewed." – Abdu’l-Baha

Regards Tony
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Or the one Jesus wanted for all of us.

It is your choice.

Regards Tony
Cultural appropriation is generally bad form. Claiming that you know the "true" meaning of the cultural expression that you stole even better than the culture you stole it from brings it to a whole other level of insensitivity.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Cultural appropriation is generally bad form. Claiming that you know the "true" meaning of the cultural expression that you stole even better than the culture you stole it from brings it to a whole other level of insensitivity.

Firstly, it is not my Message, thus I assume that you accuse Baha'u'llah, as you have posted above. Likewise you accuse all the Messengers as it can be seen that accusation would have been used against Jesus, we know it has been used against Muhammad.

The Messages given by ALL of the Messengers have challenged the cultural norm of the day and It is Prophecy it would be so in this age;

Matthew 7:21-23
I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Thus many will feel they have been challenged, as what they know about Jesus the Christ, is not Jesus the Christ at all.

That is the great thing about the Bible, it is sure testimony of what was to come, but no one likes to think they were the ones that got it wrong.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
In another thread that very thing came up. How many wives do Christians say God allows? If it is not many or at least three, then God changed his mind with what he told Muhammad?

That has been explained in full by Baha'u'llah, but these quotes say it all
So what's the Baha'i answer to God changing the amount of wives a man can have? Should all people have accepted Muhammad as the latest prophet from God and obeyed everything that was written in the Quran? So multiple wives would have been okay until God changed the rule with Baha'u'llah?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So what's the Baha'i answer to God changing the amount of wives a man can have? Should all people have accepted Muhammad as the latest prophet from God and obeyed everything that was written in the Quran? So multiple wives would have been okay until God changed the rule with Baha'u'llah?

As this is about the Bible being a sure spiritual guide, lets explore what it says.

Jeremiah 29:11 “‘For I know the plans I have for you,’ declares the Lord, ‘plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.’”

The wisdom is contained in the Message given by God in the age it is given. When it is no longer influencing mans choices, man prefers their ideas over God's, then another Messenger is given. A new Heaven of Teachings and new earth of understanding.

Proverbs 3: 5-6 “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.”

Psalm 32:8 “I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my loving eye on you.”

With the Message of Baha'u'llah I see this verse unfold;

Isaiah 43:19 “See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland.”

It is up to us to renew our mind, see with different frames of references;

Romans 12:1-2 “Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.”

Regards Tony


 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Firstly, it is not my Message, thus I assume that you accuse Baha'u'llah, as you have posted above.
No, I'm talking about you.

Baha'u'llah may have been the one to come up with this particular version of cultural appropriation, but you make your own decisions about whether to perpetuate it.

Likewise you accuse all the Messengers as it can be seen that accusation would have been used against Jesus, we know it has been used against Muhammad.
Sure. Appropriation is not a new thing.

And it makes sense in a lot of ways: if you're going to make some existing religion the target of your proselytizing efforts, then co-opting aspects of their religion can increase your odds of success.

The Messages given by ALL of the Messengers have challenged the cultural norm of the day and It is Prophecy it would be so in this age;
Not really relevant, but I appreciate the effort.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Truth is relevant CG. Look at the Bible, it teaches us that. Each Prophet/Messenger fulfilled the Covenant of the Faith before it, annulled the it teachings and made all things new, a new heaven an a new earth.
Truth is relevant or relative? Only in the Baha'i "progression" does one messenger fulfill and annul the religion that came before. What religions came before the Buddha? Did his teaching fulfill and annul those others? Then Zoroaster... which religions came before him? Did it fulfill and annul any of them? Then Christianity... other than saying it fulfilled and annul Judaism, what other religions did it fulfill and annul? And if you really think it did, how did it fulfill and annul them?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Truth is relevant or relative? Only in the Baha'i "progression" does one messenger fulfill and annul the religion that came before. What religions came before the Buddha? Did his teaching fulfill and annul those others? Then Zoroaster... which religions came before him? Did it fulfill and annul any of them? Then Christianity... other than saying it fulfilled and annul Judaism, what other religions did it fulfill and annul? And if you really think it did, how did it fulfill and annul them?

It is Relative CG.

As to the past, if has no positive influence on our future, then it is best not to discuss it.

I see this quote is more useful for what needs to be discussed.

"... Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.... " Baha'u'llah

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Truth is relevant CG. Look at the Bible, it teaches us that. Each Prophet/Messenger fulfilled the Covenant of the Faith before it, annulled the it teachings and made all things new, a new heaven an a new earth.

So what's the Baha'i answer to God changing the amount of wives a man can have? Should all people have accepted Muhammad as the latest prophet from God and obeyed everything that was written in the Quran? So multiple wives would have been okay until God changed the rule with Baha'u'llah?
You didn't answer this. If you don't know the answer, it's okay to say you don't know rather than going off into some list of quotes from the Baha'i writings and out of context Bible quotes and other things you want to throw in there.

Truth is relevant or relative? Only in the Baha'i "progression" does one messenger fulfill and annul the religion that came before. What religions came before the Buddha? Did his teachings fulfill and annul those others? Then Zoroaster... which religions came before him? Did it fulfill and annul any of them? Then Christianity... other than saying it fulfilled and annulled Judaism, what other religions did it fulfill and annul? And if you really think it did, how did it fulfill and annul them?
Can you give examples of how Baha'is believe each of the major religions fulfilled and annulled the material/social teachings of the previous religion?

It is Relative CG.
So "Truth" is relative and only relevant until a new official messenger God comes and changes the "Truth"? So it is never really "The Truth"? Only a temporary, changeable truth... like the things that got people stoned to death in one religion only get a slap on the wrist in a later religion?

So the Bible has been fulfilled and annulled according to your Baha'i beliefs, so using the Bible as a "sure" spiritual guide is going to create some problems for you. Some of the things are no longer relevant.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So the Bible has been fulfilled and annulled according to your Baha'i beliefs, so using the Bible as a "sure" spiritual guide is going to create some problems for you. Some of the things are no longer relevant.

It has not been a problem at all for me CG, in Fact it was the Bible that aided me in seeing the Message of Baha'u'llah and the Message of Baha'u'llah confirmed to me how relevant the Bible was. The Bible is a key in accepting the return spoken of by all the Prophets of the Old Testament and by Jesus and His Disciples, I see it all happened as promised and it is still happening as the Bible says it will.

Learning basic maths in early schooling does not become irrelevant in later learning, it becomes a firm foundation.

I have mentioned many many times to you the two aspects of Faith, the part that does not change and the part that does. Links to read about it posted also many times. As you keep bringing this up it appears you did not read, nor consider the explanations posted. Thus in all fairness, I see there is no need to repeat. You can look it up anytime, if you in your futures yoy see the need to.

The answer to the changing aspect of all faiths lays in the most basic Truth given by God unto us, which is;

God does, what God chooses. Thus the new Message is the New Heaven and the new Earth promised in Scriptures. It is a new Creation to which all things are made new.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The great thing about the Old and New Testament is that they also give us the guidance needed to accept Muhammad.

A Christain King of that age in a place now known as Ethiopia saw the Message of Muhammad was also that of the Bible.

"... When the king heard it, he wept and exclaimed: "verily, this and what Jesus brought (Gospel) has come from the same source of light (miškāt)"....."

The story at this link.

Migration to Abyssinia - Wikipedia

The Two Witnesses talked about in the Book of Revelation are the guide to Islam and how the Message was to unfold in the world. Revelation also ties us back to the records of Daniel.

Regards Tony
 
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