• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Sin and Repentance

Bird123

Well-Known Member
If sin was not an issue for God then He would not have enquired of Adam after the 'fall', 'Where art thou?'. The close spiritual bond between God and men had been broken, and needed to be restored.

How can this not be God's concern?

Repentance is one of the requirements for normalizing spiritual relationships.


If you base God on holy books written by mankind, you wander from the Real Truth. Religion is mankind's attempt to understand God. I have found no religion that really understands God at all.

Does one follow blindly the beliefs of others or does one bravely venture into Undiscovered country where the Real Truth waits to be Discovered??

Shouldn't God be much more than a set of Beliefs?? How can anyone who cares about Real Truth ever be satisfied with mere beliefs??

Question those holy books for they reflect mankind more than anything else. Does the god of those holy books really make Intelligent moves?? Think about it. Everything about God will add up completely and with Intelligence.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I would ask you then, how many other religions that are not rooted in Biblical Judaism (ie. Abrahamic Religions) can you point to that embody the concept of sin and repentance?

That's why I said you'd have a hard time finding them.

Because even if you did find a religion you thought seemed like it had those concepts, if you dug a little deeper you'd likely realize that there are significant enough differences that they can't be said to actually believe in the Biblical concept of sin and repentance.



This shows you're confusing morality with sin.

The existence of laws doesn't mean that culture believes in a concept similar to Biblical sin and repentance

Sin is Biblically defined as that which goes against God's will. Going against God's will means not just overtly disobeying God, but also not being in line with the way God designed us to think, feel, and act. And God designed us to be like Him, so sin is essentially a failure to be like God in character as we were designed to.

But not everyone who believes in the need for laws restricting certain behaviors would say they believe in that concept of sin.

If you don't believe in an all powerful creator god then you can't by definition believe in a concept like Biblical sin.

Obviously, not every religion or atheist believes those things - but they all generally believe in having laws to govern society. But they might not believe in having the same kinds of laws.

If you don't believe that god demands you be like him, and failure to be like him is a problem, then you also can't by definition believe in a concept like Biblical sin.

Because intrinsic to the definition of Biblical sin is the idea of where the law comes from and why it exists. Ie. The law comes from God, and is defined by God's character, and the law exists because we need to be like God in order to live eternally.

You can't divorce those ideas from the concept of sin and still call it Biblical sin.




Your statement takes certain things for granted which you cannot take for granted.

You take for granted the idea that everyone already knows certain things are wrong and knows what the right alternative course of action is.

However, we know historically and even today there are people who think it's ok to murder. Maybe they say the individual has to be of a certain religion, race, or ideology before they are fair game to murder. Maybe their belief system even says it's righteous to murder those people.

So you cannot take for granted the things you have.

You cannot even begin to talk about what's right and wrong without first talking about what worldview you're operating from.

From a Biblical worldview, God's nature determines what is right from wrong. That which is in alignment is God is good, and that which is not is bad. The former leads to eternal life, the later to death.


You can't define what repentance looks like without first defining what repentance is.

Repentance is a change of course and mind - but a change of course and mind towards what direction?

Change by itself isn't Biblical repentance. You need to change into the right direction.

But you can't define what the right direction is without God.

That's why you can't even talk about repentance without first mentioning what religion you're talking about. Because they won't all define what the right direction is the same way.


Jesus said to hate someone is as though you had committed the sin of murder, from the perspective of God.

You cannot Biblically repent of sin merely by obeying earthly laws.

Your heart must change to hate what God hates and love what God loves.

Yes, I'm happy to concede on these points.

I was wrong to say that sin and repentance are beliefs held by most faiths. I find myself in agreement with all that you say here.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
If you base God on holy books written by mankind, you wander from the Real Truth. Religion is mankind's attempt to understand God. I have found no religion that really understands God at all.

Does one follow blindly the beliefs of others or does one bravely venture into Undiscovered country where the Real Truth waits to be Discovered??

Shouldn't God be much more than a set of Beliefs?? How can anyone who cares about Real Truth ever be satisfied with mere beliefs??

Question those holy books for they reflect mankind more than anything else. Does the god of those holy books really make Intelligent moves?? Think about it. Everything about God will add up completely and with Intelligence.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I'm glad you see clearly! To me, philosophy is man's rational approach to God. Revelation is God's unveiling of Himself. Without that unveiling we would know very little about God, IMO.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Can you please show me which verses these statements come from?
""Israel took upon Israel Israel's sin" or "My people Israel rejected Israel when Israel died for Israel's sin"."

I thought you knew Isaiah 53. By claiming 53 is about Israel, not Mashiach, you are forced to say "Israel did X for itself" about one dozen times.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I agree with the second part of your post. But, surely, within the body of Christ, are not both Jew and Gentile called to repentance and belief? I don't see there being two different bodies, one for Jews and another for Gentiles.

Repentance is a change of mind, metanoia. The Gentile was to change their mind about polytheism, the Jew to return to His One God, through His Son.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I thought you knew Isaiah 53. By claiming 53 is about Israel, not Mashiach, you are forced to say "Israel did X for itself" about one dozen times.
I know 53. You said that the understanding as Israel would create a reading of certain verses. Which verses would create the reading you quoted?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Now, I've just been reading more of the notes in the JPS Tanakh, and under Isaiah 42:1-9 there is an interesting note that demonstrates the confusion and differences regarding 'My servant, Israel in whom I glory.' [Isaiah 49:3]
The note under chapter 42 says, 'God's Servant. The identification of the servant in these vv. is hotly debated. Possibilities include Cyrus (according to Saadia Gaon), the prophet himself (so Ibn Ezra), the Messiah (so Targum and Radak), and the Israelite nation as a whole (so Septuagint and Rashi). See 52:13-53:12n. The term 'servant' in most other passages in chapters 40-66 clearly refers to the nation Israel, or to the faithful within Israel, and that is the most likely explanation here as well. This passage borrows vocabulary and ideas from both ch 11 and Jer. 31:31-36. Like those passages, this text looks forward to the ideal world of the future, in which justice will reign and the covenant between Israel and God will be observed perfectly. The servant in this passage is parallel to, though not identical with, the ideal David king described in chapter 11; promises made to the king there are transferred to the whole nation here. Cf. 55:3n.; 60:1-22n.; 65:25n.'

Consistency is important in exegesis, and whilst I can understand why many of the passages that refer to Israel have been assumed to refer to the nation, or the faithful within Israel, this seems to me to overlook one other important possibility, which is that some references may refer to BOTH the individual and the nation. To suggest that there is no individual 'Israel' is the same as denying that there is no servant David, which is clearly not the case [Isaiah 11:1; Ezekiel 34:23,24] The Messiah is Israel, and his faithful are Israel. They are one flock with one shepherd. There is one head, with one body.

This is, of course, exactly what the Messiah of the New Testament represents. The rendering of Isaiah 49:7,8 in the KJV reads very differently from the JPS. It says, 'Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time [See Isaiah 61:2] have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;'

The expression I have underlined is explained in the JPS as 'covenants of a people'; meaning of Heb. uncertain. See 49:6 and note.

Isaiah 49:6 reads; [JPS]'For He has said:
'It is too little that you should be My servant
In that I raise up the tribes of Jacob
And restore the survivors of Israel:
I will also make you a light of nations,
That my salvation may reach the ends of the earth.'

Who, then, is a 'light of nations' or 'the light of the Gentiles'? Isaiah mentions this light as being the individual Israel (Messiah) in Isaiah 11:10. Yet it might be less clear in Isaiah 42:1; 42:6; 49:6; 54:3; 60:3; 62:2; 66:19.

Why, therefore, is it not most advisable to accept that Israel could be BOTH the individual and the faithful people (Jew and Gentile)?

P.S. I've not seen Tumah's comments for a long time. Do you know anything about his whereabouts?
 
Last edited:

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I'm glad you see clearly! To me, philosophy is man's rational approach to God. Revelation is God's unveiling of Himself. Without that unveiling we would know very little about God, IMO.


How does God reveal Himself? How does God reveal any knowledge?

One can learn more about someone through their actions. In this time-based causal universe God's actions can be seen. Understand God's actions and you understand God. God's actions can not be altered unlike the words of mankind.

An action of God: God does not give knowledge. God places knowledge all around us. Knowledge waits to be Discovered. Wisdom is acquired on the journey to Discover knowledge. This can be with any subject including knowledge about God.

God hides nothing. All the knowledge and secrets of the universe stare us all in the face. Can you see? Perhaps, it is also a test of Intelligence.

Should one accept or question? To question is the start on the journey to Discovery. Do you accept that holy books come from God simply because the writers tell you it does? If one does not question, does one really seek the truth at all? I think not!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Many religious beliefs do not need a God or Allah; or his prophets, sons, messengers, messiahs, manifestations and mahdis; or his books.


Truth should not be about Beliefs.

Has religion corrupted everyone into thinking Beliefs are the answer? Beliefs merely point a direction by which one should search for the Real Truth. Beliefs are the start of the journey and not the end.

You are right. A journey to Discover the Real Truth must be open for all possibilities. This widens the view and will not alter the results.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
How does God reveal Himself? How does God reveal any knowledge?

One can learn more about someone through their actions. In this time-based causal universe God's actions can be seen. Understand God's actions and you understand God. God's actions can not be altered unlike the words of mankind.

An action of God: God does not give knowledge. God places knowledge all around us. Knowledge waits to be Discovered. Wisdom is acquired on the journey to Discover knowledge. This can be with any subject including knowledge about God.

God hides nothing. All the knowledge and secrets of the universe stare us all in the face. Can you see? Perhaps, it is also a test of Intelligence.

Should one accept or question? To question is the start on the journey to Discovery. Do you accept that holy books come from God simply because the writers tell you it does? If one does not question, does one really seek the truth at all? I think not!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
IMO, all God's revelation can be traced back to the Word of God, because it is through the Word that creation takes place.

The Messiah is the pinnacle of revelation to men on earth because He is the Word made flesh.

God is truth, as you say, and that's what Jesus Christ claimed to be!
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
It strikes me that sin and repentance play an important part in most faiths.

What makes a person aware of personal sin?

What does it mean to 'repent'?

Is it possible for one man (i.e. Jesus Christ) to bear the sins of others?

Can a whole people, Jews/Israel, be the 'lamb that is slaughtered' to save humanity from sin? [Isaiah 53]

Your thoughts, please. Thank you.
What make aware of his/her own sin? The suffering one experience in life is an indication and also to know for one self when one doing wrong according to the spiritual teaching.

Repenting in my understanding is to stop doing the things that is a sin, and to understand by stopping sinful action, speech or thought that things will be better.

I believe Jesus did carry a lot of other people's sin, but today it is the Christians who must fix their own sinful action.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
What make aware of his/her own sin? The suffering one experience in life is an indication and also to know for one self when one doing wrong according to the spiritual teaching.

Repenting in my understanding is to stop doing the things that is a sin, and to understand by stopping sinful action, speech or thought that things will be better.

I believe Jesus did carry a lot of other people's sin, but today it is the Christians who must fix their own sinful action.

Yes, the issue of suffering is interesting. Not all suffering comes as a result of sin, of course. Suffering can arise from doing good, or evil.

The lamb led to slaughter chooses not to return evil for evil. Yet, he suffers.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
IMO, all God's revelation can be traced back to the Word of God, because it is through the Word that creation takes place.

The Messiah is the pinnacle of revelation to men on earth because He is the Word made flesh.

God is truth, as you say, and that's what Jesus Christ claimed to be!


God has sent no word. That is not how God operates. Holy books are stories. They are not creation's reality.

If Jesus Christ had the Word of God, why would he allow mankind to write that holy book? Why would God allow mankind to include and value so many petty things in that holy book? Your stories do not add up. Everything about God will add up.

God is working at a much Higher Level than the word of mankind.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 
Top