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Oral Sex

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
John 3:16 does not say "persist in trust". It says in the original Greek "if you've trusted, will trust or trust now", that is, a one-time act, not an ongoing action (illogical action, I trust every waking moment? Who is that faithful?).

The problem with "persistent trust" is one saves oneself by action/obedience/faith. How is that the equivalent of accepting a gift (Romans 6:23)?
You are virtually ignoring the other teachings on this, such as the Parable of the Seed & Sower, Parable of the Sheep & Goats, Paul's unwillingness to even judge himself, his statement about bringing back those whom have fallen away, etc. Thus, all you are doing is projecting your beliefs upon the scriptures themselves.

Not only are you cherry picking the scriptures, including having them say things they ain't saying, your position doesn't even stand to any common sense whatsoever. Just because one may come to believe in Jesus doesn't mean they can't at some later time walk away from their belief as we've seen a great many times. Do you somehow just lose your free-will by proclaiming you're "born again"? That's illogical, and there's simply no scriptural support for that position.

The "once saved, always saved" concept defies scripture, defies common sense, and is highly dangerous since it may giver one a false sense of security. Paul was unwilling to judge himself, but what you are saying is that you, and anyone else who buys into "born again", can. That's heresy because only God can do the judging according to the scriptures.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You are virtually ignoring the other teachings on this, such as the Parable of the Seed & Sower, Parable of the Sheep & Goats, Paul's unwillingness to even judge himself, his statement about bringing back those whom have fallen away, etc. Thus, all you are doing is projecting your beliefs upon the scriptures themselves.

Not only are you cherry picking the scriptures, including having them say things they ain't saying, your position doesn't even stand to any common sense whatsoever. Just because one may come to believe in Jesus doesn't mean they can't at some later time walk away from their belief as we've seen a great many times. Do you somehow just lose your free-will by proclaiming you're "born again"? That's illogical, and there's simply no scriptural support for that position.

The "once saved, always saved" concept defies scripture, defies common sense, and is highly dangerous since it may giver one a false sense of security. Paul was unwilling to judge himself, but what you are saying is that you, and anyone else who buys into "born again", can. That's heresy because only God can do the judging according to the scriptures.

I'm not cherry picking. I'm asking how you resolve a clear contradiction between what you think unclear parables and statements say, for example, you are saying the Bible states "you can walk out of the Christian faith or walk away from Jesus" (taught nowhere in scripture, indeed David said, "In Hell/Sheol, the bottom of the ocean, or anywhere, You are present!") contrasted with clear statements.

Here is an unclear statement, "Be careful to walk worthy of the grace you've received, Christian". It is unclear at face value reading this whether God will chastise (as He does to ALL believers in Hebrews 12) or remove salvation (nowhere taught in scripture).

Here is a clear statement, "Whoever places their trust in Me (Jesus) HAS ETERNAL life and does NOT come into judgment." I trusted Jesus in the past, I will NOT be judged (unto Hell) in the future.

We can discuss free will, unclear scriptures and etc. later. I'm asking why you are not following clear scriptures that are unequivocal. And again, you have a lot of notes about lifestyle (what I do) and have said nothing regarding salvation as a free gift (Romans 6:26, John 1:12, John 3:16). I've never told a child, "This birthday gift is conditional, and subject to revocation unless you continually trust me and have a proper lifestyle." That's not what a gift IS.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I'm not cherry picking. I'm asking how you resolve a clear contradiction between what you think unclear parables and statements say, for example,
It's only "unclear" to those whom have chosen not to accept what it says numerous times.

for example, you are saying the Bible states "you can walk out of the Christian faith or walk away from Jesus" (taught nowhere in scripture,

Ephesians 6:10-20
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, ...

James 1:2-4
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Matthew 24:1-51
Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. ...

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

1 Corinthians 16:13
Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

James 2:17-18
So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

1 Timothy 1:19
Holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,

Mark 4[10-20]And he said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”.

Col.1[23] provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.


Unfortunately, I tend to think that you'll just blow these verses off because you don't want to accept that which should be abundantly clear.

I trusted Jesus in the past, I will NOT be judged (unto Hell) in the future.
That's a very dangerous position to take, especially since it can all too easily lead to a self-righteous false sense of security. There are other verses that imply one can fall away from the faith, but I really don't think you'd be willing to accept them either. There is no verse that clearly states that "once saved, always saved" is what Christ actually taught.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yes, the Laws God revealed to the Messengers reflected the culture. What God reveals changes with the times and the people to which it was revealed, and it is according to the needs of the times.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
Then that messes with the progression. Hinduism doesn't lead us to Judaism or whichever religion you put as next in line. Hinduism was made for and by the people of India. Judaism was for the Jews. Christianity was kind of progression, maybe. But it dumped the Laws of Moses to make a religion that non-Jews could easily get into. Islam then makes laws for the people and culture of Arabia? Each people and culture, no matter which religion gets forced upon them, shapes it to better fit them. These religions then aren't really meant to easily fit all people in all cultures. And, for me, it's much easier to believe each culture invented their own beliefs. Then, borrowed and adapted things from other people's religions. But, for sure, conquering people forced new beliefs on people, so that affected their old religious beliefs.

Having more than wife was prudent during the Dispensation of Muhammad.
Then Islam was never intended to "supersede" or "abrogate" the other religions. It was for a certain culture at a certain time and place. If not then all Christians should have dropped their laws and beliefs about marriage and accepted God's new law and had multiple wives? I don't think so. But, how would you explain it?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I can’t change the world but my hope and prayer is that Yahweh’s Kingdom would come soon so that people would learn what true love really means and enjoy the happiness and peace that comes from keeping the Law.
You could help change things by following up on posts to you on your own thread. Where did you go?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Then that messes with the progression. Hinduism doesn't lead us to Judaism or whichever religion you put as next in line.
Saying that revelation is progressive is not the same as saying that one religion leads to another.

Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Bahá'í Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.[1][2] Thus, the Bahá'í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is the most recent (though not the last—that there will never be a last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_Baha'i
Then Islam was never intended to "supersede" or "abrogate" the other religions. It was for a certain culture at a certain time and place. If not then all Christians should have dropped their laws and beliefs about marriage and accepted God's new law and had multiple wives? I don't think so. But, how would you explain it?
Islam was revealed for a certain culture at a certain time and place. I do not believe all Christians should have dropped their laws and beliefs about marriage and accepted God's new law and had multiple wives.

I do not necessarily believe that the Dispensation of Muhammad abrogated all the Dispensations that came before it because that is not in the Baha'i Writings. All that Shoghi Effendi said is this:

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it.....” God Passes By, p. 100

If you click on the link above you can read the rest of that paragraph on page 100. In short, the Revelation of Baha'u'llah does not abrogate the religions of the past, only the Dispensations of the past, because God is working through Baha'u'llah in this new religious dispensation.

Dispensation
  1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
  2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
  3. a divinely appointed order or age:
e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

Shoghi Effendi explains now it is not the religions that were abrogated. No religion can ever be abrogated because all the revealed religions were the Truth from God.

“Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.” The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 57-58

Fundamental Principle of Religious Truth
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Saying that revelation is progressive is not the same as saying that one religion leads to another.

Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Bahá'í Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.[1][2] Thus, the Bahá'í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is the most recent (though not the last—that there will never be a last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_Baha'i

Islam was revealed for a certain culture at a certain time and place. I do not believe all Christians should have dropped their laws and beliefs about marriage and accepted God's new law and had multiple wives.

I do not necessarily believe that the Dispensation of Muhammad abrogated all the Dispensations that came before it because that is not in the Baha'i Writings. All that Shoghi Effendi said is this:

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it.....” God Passes By, p. 100

If you click on the link above you can read the rest of that paragraph on page 100. In short, the Revelation of Baha'u'llah does not abrogate the religions of the past, only the Dispensations of the past, because God is working through Baha'u'llah in this new religious dispensation.

Dispensation
  1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
  2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
  3. a divinely appointed order or age:
e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

Shoghi Effendi explains now it is not the religions that were abrogated. No religion can ever be abrogated because all the revealed religions were the Truth from God.

“Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.” The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 57-58

Fundamental Principle of Religious Truth
Baha'is often use going from grade to grade in school as an analogy. I'm good with the different religions being a reflection of the culture from where they came. But I think the people themselves had more to do with making up their beliefs about God, than God revealing things to them.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Baha'is often use going from grade to grade in school as an analogy. I'm good with the different religions being a reflection of the culture from where they came. But I think the people themselves had more to do with making up their beliefs about God, than God revealing things to them.
That would surely make the most sense if there is no God.
It could go either way, since nobody can prove that God exists or that God does not exist.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
It's only "unclear" to those whom have chosen not to accept what it says numerous times.



Ephesians 6:10-20
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, ...

James 1:2-4
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Matthew 24:1-51
Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. ...

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

1 Corinthians 16:13
Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

James 2:17-18
So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

1 Timothy 1:19
Holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,

Mark 4[10-20]And he said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”.

Col.1[23] provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.


Unfortunately, I tend to think that you'll just blow these verses off because you don't want to accept that which should be abundantly clear.

That's a very dangerous position to take, especially since it can all too easily lead to a self-righteous false sense of security. There are other verses that imply one can fall away from the faith, but I really don't think you'd be willing to accept them either. There is no verse that clearly states that "once saved, always saved" is what Christ actually taught.

I'm aware of those verses, as I wrote, I'd be happy to discuss them as soon as you tell me why I'm misunderstanding clear statements like "Whoever trusts Jesus HAS ETERNAL life and shall NEVER perish."

I know we both understand "eternal" and "never" clearly.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I'm aware of those verses, as I wrote, I'd be happy to discuss them as soon as you tell me why I'm misunderstanding clear statements like "Whoever trusts Jesus HAS ETERNAL life and shall NEVER perish."

I know we both understand "eternal" and "never" clearly.
Yes, but do you understand and are willing to accept the word "steadfast" and what that implies? There are numerous verses that use this term btw.

What you have been doing is to cherry-pick the scriptures and pull out certain words that actually do not actually support your position of "once saved, always saved". And when that's pointed, you just keep repeating the same ol' same ol'.

There simply are not any verses that state or imply that we lose our free will when accepting Jesus, so all you are doing is fabricating or parroting a belief that has no basis in the scriptures or even just basic common sense.

If one claims to believe in the Biblical inerrancy, then let me recommend actually believing in the Bible and not doing a song & dance to support a nonsensical theological concept unsupported in the scriptures, both the OT and NT. Jesus condemned many of the Pharisees for taking such a position that all they needed to do was to talk-the-talk but not walk-the-walk, which is what Paul refers to as just being a "clanging cymbal" [I Corinthians 13:1].
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Yes, but do you understand and are willing to accept the word "steadfast" and what that implies? There are numerous verses that use this term btw.

What you have been doing is to cherry-pick the scriptures and pull out certain words that actually do not actually support your position of "once saved, always saved". And when that's pointed, you just keep repeating the same ol' same ol'.

There simply are not any verses that state or imply that we lose our free will when accepting Jesus, so all you are doing is fabricating or parroting a belief that has no basis in the scriptures or even just basic common sense.

If one claims to believe in the Biblical inerrancy, then let me recommend actually believing in the Bible and not doing a song & dance to support a nonsensical theological concept unsupported in the scriptures, both the OT and NT. Jesus condemned many of the Pharisees for taking such a position that all they needed to do was to talk-the-talk but not walk-the-walk, which is what Paul refers to as just being a "clanging cymbal" [I Corinthians 13:1].

We do have free will after trusting Jesus. I agree. And we've been adopted by God by trusting Jesus--there are no verses that we can lose this adoption. And we receive the Spirit as a deposit of salvation (Eph 1), there are no verses that we can lose this deposit, that's what a deposit is--a guarantor--so the Christian in Hell will bring the Holy Spirit with him to Hell, forever. There are actually over 30 benefits to trusting Christ along these lines, none of which are rescinded by any verses at all.

At root is what you think salvation is. I think it's a gift (Romans 6) and gifts are unconditional regarding behavior of the recipient. The gift was given while I was an enemy of God (Romans 6) so I can't imagine how a friend of God, an adopted child of God, can lose this gift or "give it back". At what store do I return this gift without a receipt?

The gift cannot be given back to God (Romans 8) and the giver gave it as a covenant/testament depending on a death, will and inheritance.

You don't like the red car your uncle gave you? Your uncle's dead and cannot get the car back.

I'm aware of the many scriptures telling us to walk our faith out. However, I discern where verses are referring to salvation (a free gift) or sanctification (growing in holiness, being Christlike, based on sometimes HARD WORK).

I believe you've conflated salvation (eternal life) with sanctification (the Christian aspirant's lifestyle) which is why you can't accept that salvation is a gift (Romans 6) and that those with this gift will never after perish (John 3).
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
We do have free will after trusting Jesus. I agree. And we've been adopted by God by trusting Jesus--there are no verses that we can lose this adoption. And we receive the Spirit as a deposit of salvation (Eph 1), there are no verses that we can lose this deposit, that's what a deposit is--a guarantor--so the Christian in Hell will bring the Holy Spirit with him to Hell, forever. There are actually over 30 benefits to trusting Christ along these lines, none of which are rescinded by any verses at all.

At root is what you think salvation is. I think it's a gift (Romans 6) and gifts are unconditional regarding behavior of the recipient. The gift was given while I was an enemy of God (Romans 6) so I can't imagine how a friend of God, an adopted child of God, can lose this gift or "give it back". At what store do I return this gift without a receipt?

The gift cannot be given back to God (Romans 8) and the giver gave it as a covenant/testament depending on a death, will and inheritance.

You don't like the red car your uncle gave you? Your uncle's dead and cannot get the car back.

I'm aware of the many scriptures telling us to walk our faith out. However, I discern where verses are referring to salvation (a free gift) or sanctification (growing in holiness, being Christlike, based on sometimes HARD WORK).

I believe you've conflated salvation (eternal life) with sanctification (the Christian aspirant's lifestyle) which is why you can't accept that salvation is a gift (Romans 6) and that those with this gift will never after perish (John 3).
How did we get from "oral sex" to the issue of "salvation"? And, no, I'm not conflating "salvation" with "sanctification", but I'll save that for another day and another thread.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
How many wives were allowed in Judaism and Christianity? To be consistent the answer better be more than one, or else God is changing his mind a lot. Or, which I think is more likely, each people and culture made their own "God's laws" that reflected their culture.

I believe a person was only supposed to have one wife at a time. A man could divorce his wife and marry another as long as the purpose of the divorce is not for wanting the other woman because that is adultery. Also marriage is until death separates the couple, ending the covenant, so the man can marry another.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
A man could divorce his wife and marry another as long as the purpose of the divorce is not for wanting the other woman because that is adultery.
Actually, a literalistic approach to the Bible has it that Jesus said that one cannot divorce his wife and ever marry another.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
You are correct, but once one has accepted eternal life, one has ETERNAL life, not temporary eternal life, which is an oxymoron. See John 3:16.

I believe that is due to the fact that the word is used to mean that life will not end by death due to aging and does not mean that a life can't come to an end. I believe the word is used improperly simply because we do not have a better word for it.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I believe that is literally a misinterpretation.

Na, I don't think so:

Matthew 5[32]But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19[8-9] Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
 
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