• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

a Messiah question

Eddi

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Hello,

I'm not Jewish but I have a respectful question about Judaism...

Specifically, about a possible Christian apologetic about Jesus of Nazareth not being the Messiah

I find the argument that Jesus of Nazareth does not fulfil the OT prophecies and is therefore not the Messiah to be compelling

I no longer believe him to be the Messiah

Over the past couple of days I am sorry to report that my Christian faith has disintegrated although I still believe in a Supreme Being - however, there’s something I don’t understand:

Can’t a Christian say that Jesus of Nazareth is indeed the Messiah, but that he will fulfil the various Messiah prophecies in the future, in his “second coming”?

My question being: How would Judaism respond to that claim?

It’s a genuine question, I’m not being obnoxious or trying to start an argument, I’d just be interested to hear. As an apologetic it seems to work and was wondering if there’s a way round it at all?

I am not writing as a Christian, and I do not believe him to be the Messiah...

So please don't treat me as though I am and do :)
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
@EDDi , thanks for the question.

First, please note that many view the terms Old Testament and OT as, at the very least, dismissive if not derogatory. Much of what Christians refer to as the OT is properly called the Tanakh and I, for one, would prefer yu using that term. Think "when in Rome, ..."

Now, to your question, ...

Can’t a Christian say that Jesus of Nazareth is indeed the Messiah, but that he will fulfil the various Messiah prophecies in the future, in his “second coming”?​

Of course, and if the miracle of a second coming is clearly demonstrated, I might give it serious consideration, but for now it strikes me as little more than a argument from desperation. For now, all I can say to Jesus and his surrogates is: "Don't tell me who you are, show me what you do. Then we'll talk."
 
Eddi

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
@EDDi , thanks for the question.

First, please note that many view the terms Old Testament and OT as, at the very least, dismissive if not derogatory. Much of what Christians refer to as the OT is properly called the Tanakh and I, for one, would prefer yu using that term. Think "when in Rome, ..."

Now, to your question, ...

Can’t a Christian say that Jesus of Nazareth is indeed the Messiah, but that he will fulfil the various Messiah prophecies in the future, in his “second coming”?​

Of course, and if the miracle of a second coming is clearly demonstrated, I might give it serious consideration, but for now it strikes me as little more than a argument from desperation. For now, all I can say to Jesus and his surrogates is: "Don't tell me who you are, show me what you do. Then we'll talk."
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply

And from now on I will refer to it at the "Tanakh" :)
 
Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
EDDi said:
Can’t a Christian say that Jesus of Nazareth is indeed the Messiah, but that he will fulfil the various Messiah prophecies in the future, in his “second coming”?
Click to expand...
Christians certainly can say what they wish, but they can't say that this proves Jesus is the messiah, before he's actually done any of those things. My own version of Jay's expression: Actions speak louder than words, and in this case, actions make all the difference. Jesus's supposed miracles? Those don't mean anything in terms of being a messiah. If the only claim is that he will, sometime in the future, get around to fulfilling the prophecies, then, what that means is that potentially, any Jew can do it "sometime in the future". That does not make any of these people, necessarily, specifically, the messiah.
 
dantech

dantech

Well-Known Member
EDDi said:
Hello,

I'm not Jewish but I have a respectful question about Judaism...

Specifically, about a possible Christian apologetic about Jesus of Nazareth not being the Messiah

I find the argument that Jesus of Nazareth does not fulfil the OT prophecies and is therefore not the Messiah to be compelling

I no longer believe him to be the Messiah

Over the past couple of days I am sorry to report that my Christian faith has disintegrated although I still believe in a Supreme Being - however, there’s something I don’t understand:

Can’t a Christian say that Jesus of Nazareth is indeed the Messiah, but that he will fulfil the various Messiah prophecies in the future, in his “second coming”?

My question being: How would Judaism respond to that claim?

It’s a genuine question, I’m not being obnoxious or trying to start an argument, I’d just be interested to hear. As an apologetic it seems to work and was wondering if there’s a way round it at all?

I am not writing as a Christian, and I do not believe him to be the Messiah...

So please don't treat me as though I am and do :)
Click to expand...

There are some things I can't get passed.

For example, the Messiah needs to be a descendant of King David, through the father. Yet Jesus didn't have a father?(virgin birth)
Can his second coming be with a human father?

The Messiah is also supposed to bring about world peace but some of the worst atrocities in history were caused by Christianity, which is the result of Jesus.

Beyond that, as others have stated, even if he somehow rectifies these two points, and accomplishes all the other prophecies someday in the future, to call him the Messiah today would be a stretch. Everyone else in the world has just about as much of a claim as he does.
 
Ehav4Ever

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
EDDi said:
, there’s something I don’t understand:

Can’t a Christian say that Jesus of Nazareth is indeed the Messiah, but that he will fulfil the various Messiah prophecies in the future, in his “second coming”?

My question being: How would Judaism respond to that claim?
Click to expand...

I will try to write this from the language and perspective that may understand. There are certain words like "bible" that I would not normally use but I will use it in this post for the sake of addressing your question properly.

The first steps to addressing your question are the following:
  1. What is the most authorative text to use to even investigate a claim about something that is "Biblical."
  2. Where in the "Hebrew" bible does one find the word "messiah"? (Meaning literally in the Hebrew language)
  3. Does the Hebrew word, that supposidly means Messiah, actually mean messiah, and if not what does it actually mean?
  4. Where in the Hebrew bible does it set the standards for understanding the text?
Once you have addressed the above then you have to consider the following:
  1. According to The Creator of all, who throughout history has had the correct understanding of the Torah?
  2. What is a Messianic prophecy and how do you identify it in the Hebrew bible?
  3. How historically accurate is the NT text and who were its authors?
Once the above have been addressed there are a lot of responses to the above.

The below videos may help you bit in this.




 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
EDDi said:
Can’t a Christian say that Jesus of Nazareth is indeed the Messiah, but that he will fulfil the various Messiah prophecies in the future, in his “second coming”?

My question being: How would Judaism respond to that claim?
Click to expand...
A fair question. I think a Jew could respond with "what second coming?"

I can't think of anywhere in the Judaic texts where there is mention that a messiah will not do what is expected but will at some later time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top