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Christian Church Attenders - Denominational Authoritarianism

Muffled

Jesus in me
I suppose the reason this bothers me so much is that I was raised Baptist and the only required beliefs were in believers baptism and communion as a memorial. a person was free to read the Bible and have his own ideas about it even if those ideas were not what some might consider orthodox. However I ran up against a church that basically said that if I spoke freely of my beliefs that were contrary to the myriad of church approved beliefs then I would be asked to leave. I left voluntarily because I didn't feel comfortable being muffled. The question is whether the churches authority is so insecure that it can't allow different opinions, is it really worth defending at all?
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
@Muffled ,
Why do questions asked of you, I was a Catholic, I know(forever and ever, says Grandma),
bother you...I must of missed something, for that I'm sorry.

Are all churches losing their `authority` ?
NuffStuff
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I suppose the reason this bothers me so much is that I was raised Baptist and the only required beliefs were in believers baptism and communion as a memorial. a person was free to read the Bible and have his own ideas about it even if those ideas were not what some might consider orthodox. However I ran up against a church that basically said that if I spoke freely of my beliefs that were contrary to the myriad of church approved beliefs then I would be asked to leave. I left voluntarily because I didn't feel comfortable being muffled. The question is whether the churches authority is so insecure that it can't allow different opinions, is it really worth defending at all?

I guess it would depend on the severity.

If it is pre/mid/post rapture... no problem. If someone is contentious and saying "Jesus isn't the way, the truth and the life" - please exit. If someone said, "Can you explain to me why Jesus is the way, the truth and the life? I thought there are many ways"... great question... stay--let's talk about it.

But, as you noted, some are so insecure as to use authority to muscle people into conformity.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I suppose the reason this bothers me so much is that I was raised Baptist and the only required beliefs were in believers baptism and communion as a memorial. a person was free to read the Bible and have his own ideas about it even if those ideas were not what some might consider orthodox. However I ran up against a church that basically said that if I spoke freely of my beliefs that were contrary to the myriad of church approved beliefs then I would be asked to leave. I left voluntarily because I didn't feel comfortable being muffled. The question is whether the churches authority is so insecure that it can't allow different opinions, is it really worth defending at all?
As a Catholic, I speak quite freely about my beliefs but not when I teach in the RCIA program that deals with potential converts to the Church. There my role is to teach what the Church teaches, thus not what I may personally believe or question.

BTW, to get excommunicated from the Catholic Church takes a LOT, let me tell ya.

The role of the Church is to teach what it believes is right, whereas our role as parishioners is to take those teachings, roll them around through prayerful contemplation, and then decide what to believe and do. We may disagree or question some teachings within the Church and even the scriptures themselves, as I do, and this is the relationship between us as I am responsible for my own "salvation", thus not the Church.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
As a Catholic, I speak quite freely about my beliefs but not when I teach in the RCIA program that deals with potential converts to the Church. There my role is to teach what the Church teaches, thus not what I may personally believe or question.

BTW, to get excommunicated from the Catholic Church takes a LOT, let me tell ya.

The role of the Church is to teach what it believes is right, whereas our role as parishioners is to take those teachings, roll them around through prayerful contemplation, and then decide what to believe and do. We may disagree or question some teachings within the Church and even the scriptures themselves, as I do, and this is the relationship between us as I am responsible for my own "salvation", thus not the Church.
That sounds reasonable to me, but is that a common view within the parishes?
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I suppose the reason this bothers me so much is that I was raised Baptist and the only required beliefs were in believers baptism and communion as a memorial. a person was free to read the Bible and have his own ideas about it even if those ideas were not what some might consider orthodox. However I ran up against a church that basically said that if I spoke freely of my beliefs that were contrary to the myriad of church approved beliefs then I would be asked to leave. I left voluntarily because I didn't feel comfortable being muffled. The question is whether the churches authority is so insecure that it can't allow different opinions, is it really worth defending at all?
I think it has to do with the model that puts a paid minister over the church. Its a job opening, and somebody has to please the congregation in order to get paid. There are several reasons this kind of position gets created. For one thing the letters to Timothy say that males should lead, and sometimes male leadership is lacking. The women then appeal outside for a leader, creating a paid position. A second reason is that there are organizations called missionary societies which peddle pastors, and they'll argue that its best to have a certified pastor provided. They offer training, often charging for the training, and certify. This leads to 2 tiers of authority: pastor and missionary society. Thirdly there is the entrenched idea that every church needs to appoint a specific person to be the pastor and to be paid for it, and so people just go with it.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
That sounds reasonable to me, but is that a common view within the parishes?
Yes I think so. In my experience, priests are grateful to have the faithful attend Mass, especially these days after all the scandals. While they obviously can't express approval of heterodox beliefs, most are practical men who realise that the laity simply don't go round studying theology or their catechisms all the time and have plenty of "wrong" ideas.

Also, another important point about the Catholic church - which I am coming to realise (as a result of belonging to this forum) is not so evident in some other varieties of Christianity - is recognition that we are all imperfect sinners, struggling through our lives in spite of our weaknesses and our ignorance. The priests have to make the best out of the imperfect individuals they have in their flock, and not hope for perfection, any more than they can hope for perfection in themselves.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
That sounds reasonable to me, but is that a common view within the parishes?
I would say it probably is because I do know that excommunication is very rare.

One of our former parish priests taught that the Church is a lot like the Roman traffic cop at an intersection giving directions by waving his hands and arms, whereas some of the drivers are obeying him, some are only paying scant attention to him, and some are virtually ignoring him. If there's no accident, se la vie (OK, I know that's French!:mad:), but if there's an accident or if some conflict arises, the officer is there to sort things out. If you've ever been to Rome, you know what I'm talking about.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I guess it would depend on the severity.

If it is pre/mid/post rapture... no problem. If someone is contentious and saying "Jesus isn't the way, the truth and the life" - please exit. If someone said, "Can you explain to me why Jesus is the way, the truth and the life? I thought there are many ways"... great question... stay--let's talk about it.

But, as you noted, some are so insecure as to use authority to muscle people into conformity.
Where do you draw the line at? They don't believe earth is 6000 years old, no biggie? What if they believe the bible has errors, and contradictions, yet they accept Christ? What if they don't believe in the story of the virgin birth as literal history, but believe in God and that Jesus showed people the way to God? Is that getting too close to being shown the door?

My question is, where it that line? What if they supported a woman's choice to abort an unwanted pregnancy or not? What if they were democrats? What if they were socialists? What is that point in which you can accept them, or reject them from the church? How do you as a pastor deal with these many various shades of truth that people accept if they appear in your church?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Where do you draw the line at? They don't believe earth is 6000 years old, no biggie? What if they believe the bible has errors, and contradictions, yet they accept Christ? What if they don't believe in the story of the virgin birth as literal history, but believe in God and that Jesus showed people the way to God? Is that getting too close to being shown the door?

My question is, where it that line? What if they supported a woman's choice to abort an unwanted pregnancy or not? What if they were democrats? What if they were socialists? What is that point in which you can accept them, or reject them from the church? How do you as a pastor deal with these many various shades of truth that people accept if they appear in your church?
Those are all good questions and certainly I've dealt with most of the things that you are mentioning.

But most of your questions isn't about theology.

As someone comes in the front door, for that matter as they live, none of them are perfect. I know this because I looked at someone in the mirror and realized I'm not either. :)

Probably the biggest issue is love.

In our congregation there are democrats, republicans, independents etc... but we don't preach politics, we preach Jesus. So political affiliation isn't an issue.

Our motto is "love, accepted and connected". If you come in, you are loved - the love of God attracts people.

Accepted, because many people believe that their parents love them (or other people) but don't accept them the way they are. Well, in our church we accept people just the way they are. Everybody changes and no one came perfect. The word of God changes people.

Connected in that when you connect with people, change can happen.

So the issue isn't the litany of differences.

BUT

In leadership it is a different subject.

So we had a leader who believed that Jesus already returned but his wife didn't. His statement was "I won't, as a leader, create a problem. I'll preach what ever we agree on since it is about the children in God and not whether I'm right and you wrong."

That worked for about 2 years until he said, "I can't do that anymore" and as a mature leader, just went to a church that believed as he did. Why? Love was the issue not whether doctrine was the same as mine.

And we did discuss the issue together. It wasn't "shut up, sit down and be quiet".

So we don't kick people out just because the believe differently - we work through it. As a leader, however, a more stringent requirement must be met.
 

Iymus

Active Member
I suppose the reason this bothers me so much is that I was raised Baptist and the only required beliefs were in believers baptism and communion as a memorial. a person was free to read the Bible and have his own ideas about it even if those ideas were not what some might consider orthodox. However I ran up against a church that basically said that if I spoke freely of my beliefs that were contrary to the myriad of church approved beliefs then I would be asked to leave. I left voluntarily because I didn't feel comfortable being muffled. The question is whether the churches authority is so insecure that it can't allow different opinions, is it really worth defending at all?

Doesn't seem to be personal or insecurity related. You may not have enough rapport with them at this time. There are dangers with strangers coming in and sharing doctrine and ideas contrary to what the church is founded on.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Those are all good questions and certainly I've dealt with most of the things that you are mentioning.

But most of your questions isn't about theology.
Perhaps there is something to that, but I wonder if there is a way to separate the two? In today's climate for example, we can joke about Republican Jesus vs. Biblical Jesus, and see two very different, at times diametrically opposed creatures. Now that is clearly an example of where one's political views, which represent one's overall worldviews, meets our theological views. What one reads in scripture, reflects that overall general way in which we see the world and hold truths. Look at the theology of the Phelps family, for instance. What image of God is that?

As someone comes in the front door, for that matter as they live, none of them are perfect. I know this because I looked at someone in the mirror and realized I'm not either. :)
But do you see those differences as imperfections, or see them as equally valid ways to look at the world, even as they don't reflect how you do? Do you see them as the "lost" that needs saving, because of those differences? And the saving is from those "wrong" worldviews? Do you believe that if they realize faith in their lives, find God, that they will no longer think as liberals?

Probably the biggest issue is love.
Most assuredly. In all cases.

In our congregation there are democrats, republicans, independents etc... but we don't preach politics, we preach Jesus. So political affiliation isn't an issue.

Our motto is "love, accepted and connected". If you come in, you are loved - the love of God attracts people.

Accepted, because many people believe that their parents love them (or other people) but don't accept them the way they are. Well, in our church we accept people just the way they are. Everybody changes and no one came perfect. The word of God changes people.
Some of the sour taste in my mouth comes from seeing that acceptance of the outsider as a way to show them how God's ways are, coincidently the values and beliefs of that church. How many are actually able to separate their views on God, from their personal value systems? Most tend to see God as being on "their side".

I applaud that you say you don't preach politics from the pulpit. You shouldn't. No preacher should. Yet, the co opting and politicization of Christianity by the conservatives has so damaged Christianity, it is beyond words the harm done.

Just listen to "Focus on the Family", if you want a clear example of right wing conservatism telling the world what it means to be a Christian. It tells the world, to me at least, what it mean to not be a Christian. I got steeped in the stuff back in the early 80's, and it poisoned that Baby of Christianity, in the bathwater of right wing, conservatism. God became an extension of politics, when I was only interested in God. I was surprised to learn how of damning of everyone God was, when I could read about Jesus and see he wasn't.

BUT

In leadership it is a different subject.
And here you raise a valid point. Clearly, if a church caters to a certain market, it has to present the product it wishes to sell. I recall my dad telling me that religion is a business, and I found that objectionable at the time. But in reality, yes, it is. A church has to have a set of truths it stands for, and who decides that?

Obviously, it's the board who hires the pastors. And that board represents the members of the congregation. And the money of course is a factor, with influential members of the board, and such. I'm not trying to be cynical, but practical. The values of the members, the general tone of the congregation, gets reflected in who is hired, what is preached, what is taught, etc. Then add to that the setup of the overall denomination committees and their rules.

One wonders where there is any room for God in all of that! :)

So we had a leader who believed that Jesus already returned but his wife didn't. His statement was "I won't, as a leader, create a problem. I'll preach what ever we agree on since it is about the children in God and not whether I'm right and you wrong."

That worked for about 2 years until he said, "I can't do that anymore" and as a mature leader, just went to a church that believed as he did. Why? Love was the issue not whether doctrine was the same as mine.
This I didn't follow. Could you explain it to me, how that his deciding he needed to teach what he believed, instead of telling himself it didn't matter, was because it wasn't about love? You mean, if he really loved others, he would have kept teaching what he didn't believe? I need a better explanation.

And we did discuss the issue together. It wasn't "shut up, sit down and be quiet".

So we don't kick people out just because the believe differently - we work through it. As a leader, however, a more stringent requirement must be met.
I can see where you wouldn't want a conflicted message being taught. That only makes sense, as people come looking for some cohesive message they can easily tuck into their shelves they reach into during their lives. You can't have them hearing you teach one thing over here, and something completely different over there in the same church body. Most aren't ready to hear contradictions, but just want easy to access, simple things to follow, and not challenges to faith that may disrupt them prematurely, before they are ready for that next step in their faith.

I appreciate your candor. I find it helpful. I don't intend to sound dismissive. I'm just trying to tie these two worlds together somehow. Christianity is supposed to be able to transcend these differences. Yet, what I see since the 1980's, come to a full out boil on the face in response to all that in 2020, is the result of this inability to transcend differences within Christianity, which got co opted and exploited for cultural divisiveness instead. I walked into a poisonous field back then, and I see it's result today.

I keep coming back to Romans 14, and wonder if anyone of them has any idea what that is about.
 

Prim969

Member
I suppose the reason this bothers me so much is that I was raised Baptist and the only required beliefs were in believers baptism and communion as a memorial. a person was free to read the Bible and have his own ideas about it even if those ideas were not what some might consider orthodox. However I ran up against a church that basically said that if I spoke freely of my beliefs that were contrary to the myriad of church approved beliefs then I would be asked to leave. I left voluntarily because I didn't feel comfortable being muffled. The question is whether the churches authority is so insecure that it can't allow different opinions, is it really worth defending at all?
Muffles rather hard to say. You’d have to alleviate some more on the main conflict between you and and the other members of the church.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Perhaps there is something to that, but I wonder if there is a way to separate the two? In today's climate for example, we can joke about Republican Jesus vs. Biblical Jesus, and see two very different, at times diametrically opposed creatures. Now that is clearly an example of where one's political views, which represent one's overall worldviews, meets our theological views. What one reads in scripture, reflects that overall general way in which we see the world and hold truths. Look at the theology of the Phelps family, for instance. What image of God is that?

No image of God in the Westboro Church. But didn't Jesus have the same problem? People are people, I guess. How much one lets God take control of the fiber of our lives still is up to us.

I think Judas could have repented and changed just like Peter, who denied Jesus and cursed, did. But ultimately it is our hearts that determine how much we begin to reflect who He is.

But do you see those differences as imperfections, or see them as equally valid ways to look at the world, even as they don't reflect how you do? Do you see them as the "lost" that needs saving, because of those differences? And the saving is from those "wrong" worldviews? Do you believe that if they realize faith in their lives, find God, that they will no longer think as liberals?

I love what it says in Ephesians... "the good work He began in you He is able to accomplish". I like it because it establishes many truths.
  1. It isn't the imperfections that is harped on but rather the good work that has started and is growing (everybody on a different level of their journey)
  2. It establishes that the objective is a journey of improvement and not one's current condition. it is where you are going and not where you are at.
  3. To me, it speaks of helping people along the way of adding value-being a helper of their faith. It is a good work that has started and I'm part of the process of helping them become better even as they help me become better.
I don't think the issue is "liberal" and "conservative" which also depends of definitions which may or may not be right. I think it is just "becoming more like Jesus".

Isn't their good in both political parties? Isn't the hearts of people that make both parties have difficulties. what if we just approached it "what would Jesus do" by "loving your neighbor as yourself".

But we do change when we find Jesus (in the Christian belief) because our hearts change and baggage gets unloaded.

On a personal note, my wife grew up in an alcoholic abusive home where eventually a divorced ensued. I grew up in a home where my dad taught his boys, "there are a lot of fish (women) in the pond, you might as well enjoy it" which also caused a divorce.

So we get together with real desire to make it work but it wasn't until Jesus came in that the Love that God gives transformed my thinking with a love I had never experienced that saved our marriage. My wife was able to release the hurt of the past and also save the marriage. 46 years later and counting...

So our thinking and driving force changes... not "R or D" or Conservative or Liberal but Jesus thinking.

Hope I answered all questions but know if i didn't you will redress.

Most assuredly. In all cases.

:)

Some of the sour taste in my mouth comes from seeing that acceptance of the outsider as a way to show them how God's ways are, coincidently the values and beliefs of that church. How many are actually able to separate their views on God, from their personal value systems? Most tend to see God as being on "their side".

I applaud that you say you don't preach politics from the pulpit. You shouldn't. No preacher should. Yet, the co opting and politicization of Christianity by the conservatives has so damaged Christianity, it is beyond words the harm done.

Just listen to "Focus on the Family", if you want a clear example of right wing conservatism telling the world what it means to be a Christian. It tells the world, to me at least, what it mean to not be a Christian. I got steeped in the stuff back in the early 80's, and it poisoned that Baby of Christianity, in the bathwater of right wing, conservatism. God became an extension of politics, when I was only interested in God. I was surprised to learn how of damning of everyone God was, when I could read about Jesus and see he wasn't.

We are all at different levels. It's a growth from babyhood to childhood to youth-hood (new word?) to adulthood to mature adulthood. And then you have carnal Christians.

Sometimes we want babies to act like mature adults and fault them for not being one. Or why these Christian (youth in spiritual age) who are full of zeal but leave a few dead people along the way for their lack of wisdom.

People want Christians to be perfect but forget that it is a journey and people are at different stages.

I would still say that there is always an intersection of church subject matters that still involve politics. Or let me say it differently. Take the issue of the poor and the helping thereof. it is a political issue but it is also a church issue. One can view it as the church being political but it is still a church issue.

We all still vote and God did list some requirement for those in office. But that can be addressed without being pro one party over another. Certainly there are churches that promote the Democratic part and those who promote the Republican party... I say promote the Jesus party.

And here you raise a valid point. Clearly, if a church caters to a certain market, it has to present the product it wishes to sell. I recall my dad telling me that religion is a business, and I found that objectionable at the time. But in reality, yes, it is. A church has to have a set of truths it stands for, and who decides that?

Obviously, it's the board who hires the pastors. And that board represents the members of the congregation. And the money of course is a factor, with influential members of the board, and such. I'm not trying to be cynical, but practical. The values of the members, the general tone of the congregation, gets reflected in who is hired, what is preached, what is taught, etc. Then add to that the setup of the overall denomination committees and their rules.

One wonders where there is any room for God in all of that! :)

Actually, there are different types of church governments. In my non-denominational sector, the board doesn't hire the pastor unless the current pastor suddenly passes away. And money does not and cannot have a say in the matter. I actually had a member (a big giver) who basically said to me "I give a whole bunch so let me preach" - I said "Sorry Charlie, pulpit isn't for sell'... he left and the church was the better for it. I suppose he went to a church where the pulpit could be bought.

Hopefully, If the pastor suddenly passes away, they have already thought it through and trained an Associate pastor for that situation. It would be the anointing that qualifies you and not a voting.

There are some churches where the congregation votes, some the Board, some the elders etc.

Who decides what the flavor is? Again, it would vary from church to church. I say it this way, there are 3 bed 2 bath homes in a split plan or all bedroom together plan. They are all decorated differently with a different flavor. Who cares? If the foundation is solid, its all good.

You have expressive churches, liturgical churches, loud churches, silent churches - who cares? As long as the foundation is square and solid. Each one reaches a group of people that God want them to reach.

I can see where you wouldn't want a conflicted message being taught. That only makes sense, as people come looking for some cohesive message they can easily tuck into their shelves they reach into during their lives. You can't have them hearing you teach one thing over here, and something completely different over there in the same church body. Most aren't ready to hear contradictions, but just want easy to access, simple things to follow, and not challenges to faith that may disrupt them prematurely, before they are ready for that next step in their faith.

I appreciate your candor. I find it helpful. I don't intend to sound dismissive. I'm just trying to tie these two worlds together somehow. Christianity is supposed to be able to transcend these differences. Yet, what I see since the 1980's, come to a full out boil on the face in response to all that in 2020, is the result of this inability to transcend differences within Christianity, which got co opted and exploited for cultural divisiveness instead. I walked into a poisonous field back then, and I see it's result today.

I keep coming back to Romans 14, and wonder if anyone of them has any idea what that is about.

I LOVE Romans 14. It nails things on the head! Don't be a stumbling block as much as possible and realize that everybody is different. Let love rule your decision (whenever possible).

 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
This I didn't follow. Could you explain it to me, how that his deciding he needed to teach what he believed, instead of telling himself it didn't matter, was because it wasn't about love? You mean, if he really loved others, he would have kept teaching what he didn't believe? I need a better explanation.

I knew I had missed something.

Let me rephrase. His wife was the main preacher to the Hispanic community and was 100% in agreement in our faith but every once in a while he taught. When he taught, he taught on the areas that we agreed on and not on what we didn't agree on. Love said "No need to create division (in that in those areas it was so diametrically opposed)";

A Romans 14 opportunity. :)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It's sortofa Catch 22. What Jesus and the Twelve taught was not only what affected the individual person but also the Church as a whole and, subsequently, the society as well. IOW, "No man [or woman] is an island".

Therefore, as Gandhi said, anyone who says that religion and state must be kept separate doesn't understand religion. I'll add to that, neither do they understand politics.

IMO, it's "kosher" for a church to talk on political issues that affect us as congregants and the state, but it's "treif" (forbidden), imo, to support a political party or a particular candidate, and yet I know many churches do.

If we wish to consider us to be a "Christian country", then the real issue is what do we do with our own people and also the rest of the world that reflects this? Do we support politicians that reflect Jesus' command to "love one another"? Do we strongly help the poor and others in need? Do we try and end violence and war? Do we speak with compassion and not hate? Do we honor the Truth? Do we encourage and support politicians that also do the above, while not supporting nor encouraging those that don't.

IOW, are we going to recognize the fact that it's not just about me as an individual and to act accordingly.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
@Muffled ,
Why do questions asked of you, I was a Catholic, I know(forever and ever, says Grandma),
bother you...I must of missed something, for that I'm sorry.

Are all churches losing their `authority` ?
NuffStuff

I believe saying it is so doesn't make it so. I don't believe baptism as an infant made you a believer in Jesus.

I believe authority has to be authentic. As Paul says if someone comes along preaching a different gospel it isn't coming from God.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
As a Catholic, I speak quite freely about my beliefs but not when I teach in the RCIA program that deals with potential converts to the Church. There my role is to teach what the Church teaches, thus not what I may personally believe or question.

BTW, to get excommunicated from the Catholic Church takes a LOT, let me tell ya.

The role of the Church is to teach what it believes is right, whereas our role as parishioners is to take those teachings, roll them around through prayerful contemplation, and then decide what to believe and do. We may disagree or question some teachings within the Church and even the scriptures themselves, as I do, and this is the relationship between us as I am responsible for my own "salvation", thus not the Church.

I believe that makes a lot of sense. A person representing the church ought to teach the beliefs of the church. And of course if just discussing something with someone you should be free to disagree with the church.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I think it has to do with the model that puts a paid minister over the church. Its a job opening, and somebody has to please the congregation in order to get paid. There are several reasons this kind of position gets created. For one thing the letters to Timothy say that males should lead, and sometimes male leadership is lacking. The women then appeal outside for a leader, creating a paid position. A second reason is that there are organizations called missionary societies which peddle pastors, and they'll argue that its best to have a certified pastor provided. They offer training, often charging for the training, and certify. This leads to 2 tiers of authority: pastor and missionary society. Thirdly there is the entrenched idea that every church needs to appoint a specific person to be the pastor and to be paid for it, and so people just go with it.

Sometimes pastors can have different views from the denomination. I attended a Congregational church where the Pastor had the Baptist view of believers baptism. The thing about Congregationalists is they tend to accept almost anybody even if they have anti-thetical views.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Muffles rather hard to say. You’d have to alleviate some more on the main conflict between you and and the other members of the church.

I believe I do not often have issues with fellow church members but I have had issues with leadership. My pastor says that leadership has a responsible for keeping people on the straight and narrow. All too often that means as men see it not as God sees it.
 
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