Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

YoursTrue · Aug 21, 2020

Brian2 said:
It does not really matter that the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in this place. Neither the Jews nor Jesus was talking about the trinity, just the identity of Jesus.
Jesus was claiming to be the Son of God, with more of a claim to be called a god than the ones called gods in Psalm 82.
It is the Son who inherits the nations in Ps 2 and God inherits the nations in Ps 82. Does this mean that the Son of Ps 2 is the God of Ps 82. That would mean that there are 2 Gods. But there is only one God.

Ps 2:8 Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
Ps 82:8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

Jesus clears up this dilemma by saying that He and the Father are one. One God, with the Father being in the Son and the Son being in the Father.
Like the Jews the JWs would have nothing of it and wanted to kill Jesus, just as JWs want to kill the real Jesus and replace Him with a created angel even if it means denying all the scriptures that tell us Jesus is not created by telling us that Jesus created all things that have been created.

Jesus cannot be replaced by anyone. He, for the blessing of those who have faith in him and his Father, was obedient to his Father until the end. Now about him being an angel, that is another discussion, he was not an angel-on-the-earth-in-the-flesh. For starters, though, before I even get into discussion of angel and what is an angel, no one can kill God. We know that. (Don't we?) And God raised his only-begotten son from the dead.

Oeste · Aug 21, 2020

Oeste said:
How would that be possible? He has a name which is above every other name.

YoursTrue said:
So then, either way, do you consider the charge of blasphemy does not apply to him. In other words, would you say he blasphemed?

Not at all. If Christ blasphemed we are not saved and the gig for man is up.

YoursTrue · Aug 21, 2020

Oeste said:
Not at all. If Christ blasphemed we are not saved and the gig for man is up.

Ok thanks for clarifying what you think. To recap, he was put up on false charges. If I recall correctly the high priest listening to Jesus at the trial of the Sanhedrin ripped his garments and said he heard enough. But notice they didn't give him over to Pilate citing charges of blasphemy, did they? But rather of political charges. Just to say as a side note.

Oeste · Aug 21, 2020

Iymus said:
it seems like asking something considerately of you is. my apologies if my expectations are too much.

I expect when I give answers I will get answers in return. So far my OP remains unanswered. Perhaps the questions are too much.

Oeste said:
There is only one Messiah for Christians Lymus, not two or more. His name is Jesus Christ.

Iymus said:
I see a connection between your messiah and satan yes.
my messiah seeks not his own glory because he follows not his own doctrine, will, works, authority, etc

Oeste said:
Well please, tell me who you think my messiah is and then tell us about this "connection".

Iymus said:
I don't have to think when you have told me.

Yes I did. Here it is again:

Oeste said:
There is only one Messiah for Christians Lymus, not two or more. His name is Jesus Christ.

Now tell us more about this "connection" you see between Jesus and Satan, and please, let's leave the "My Messiah" and "Your Messiah" out of it. As I stated before, if you want to discuss or debate Jesus, fine. If you want to split Jesus into an "Arian" or "Trinitarian" Messiah, fine. If you want to talk about Christian and Jewish perceptions of a Messiah, fine. I have no idea how you'll relate them to thread theme and the questions posed but I will not allow you to flame my thread by making things personal.

rational experiences · Aug 21, 2020

When a human thinker talks about gases as light burning first in the heavenly mass in science a male said...........

The heavens as a gas are burning. Sacrifice of the spirit gas is owned by stone, the first and original One body, that released those gases originally from its O planet body. The Sun, a Satanic theme, attacked and sacrificed the Immaculate cold clear heavenly mass and made it burn.

However as it sits in a spatial vacuum, the cold deep empty space face, it also sits burning and cooling on the face of water, evaporated off the ground. How O circulating movement is constant, constantly replacing itself as O by G spiral back to O and O burning splits into D/D and cools back to O/O...as a theme of thinking study....the concept circulating cooling in a spatial vacuum forms the spirit movement of G O D.

How it was taught. O the planet owned the light of sacrifice FIRST/origin.

Humans lived naturally supported in their life by that very condition.

So if J E S U S is not G O D, then it is why it stated, that JESUS is not G O D.

If you said that science caused a loss and gas/spirit fell out, when the origin of light existing was with G O D. Then you would detail a story about radiation fall out, as caused by males as scientists in science...and then detail why a human being life got sacrificed when we physically live on the ground. Inside of a holy heavenly body, but in a cooled holy water mass.

Oeste · Aug 21, 2020

YoursTrue said:
Ok thanks for clarifying what you think. To recap, he was put up on false charges. If I recall correctly the high priest listening to Jesus at the trial of the Sanhedrin ripped his garments and said he heard enough.

That's correct. The rendering of clothes shows profound grief upon hearing a blasphemy.

YoursTrue said:
But notice they didn't give him over to Pilate citing charges of blasphemy, did they?

No, but that doesn't change the Sanhedrin's conviction of Jesus for blasphemy and multiple other charges.

The Romans had removed the power of capital punishment from the Sanhedrin by then so they had to send him off to Pilate if they wanted him dead. The problem is you can't get a Roman court to seriously consider a blasphemy charge against the God of the Jews anymore than you could get a Jewish court to consider a blasphemy charge against a pagan god like Jupiter.

YoursTrue said:
But rather of political charges.

Yes, the Jewish elders convinced Pilate to charge him with sedition; this necessitated a second trial with a much more serious complaint before a Roman court of law.

YoursTrue · Aug 21, 2020

Oeste said:
That's correct. The rendering of clothes shows profound grief upon hearing a blasphemy.

No, but that doesn't change the Sanhedrin's conviction of Jesus for blasphemy and multiple other charges.

The Romans had removed the power of capital punishment from the Sanhedrin by then so they had to send him off to Pilate if they wanted him dead. The problem is you can't get a Roman court to seriously consider a blasphemy charge against the God of the Jews anymore than you could get a Jewish court to consider a blasphemy charge against a pagan god like Jupiter.

Yes, the Jewish elders convinced Pilate to charge him with sedition; this necessitated a second trial with a much more serious complaint before a Roman court of law.

Agreed.

Brian2 · Aug 22, 2020

YoursTrue said:
Jesus cannot be replaced by anyone. He, for the blessing of those who have faith in him and his Father, was obedient to his Father until the end. Now about him being an angel, that is another discussion, he was not an angel-on-the-earth-in-the-flesh. For starters, though, before I even get into discussion of angel and what is an angel, no one can kill God. We know that. (Don't we?) And God raised his only-begotten son from the dead.

Jesus can be replaced, otherwise we would not be having these discussions. God raised the man Jesus of Nazareth from the dead. A man can die. But of course the WT has changed the meaning of things spoken of in the Bible even when the meaning is plain, because these things relate to other wrong parts of their doctrine.
A man can did and when a man's body dies the soul does not die, so even when the body of Jesus died, His soul did not die. (Matt 10:28) There is no going out of existence when we die physically, that is just wrong doctrine of the WT and definitions of words etc have had to be changed (by the WT) for that doctrine. (eg soul, spirit, hades, sheol, death, resurrection etc)

Iymus · Aug 22, 2020

This seems disappointing; i thought Silence was Golden but instead Silence was time for you to regain your composure and double down on stubbornness. (partial "1 Samuel 15:23 reference")
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Oeste said:
I expect when I give answers I will get answers in return. So far my OP remains unanswered. Perhaps the questions are too much.

Perhaps Deductive Reasoning, Critical Thinking, and Analytical Skills too much????

Oeste said:
Now tell us more about this "connection" you see between Jesus and Satan, and please, let's leave the "My Messiah" and "Your Messiah" out of it

The jesus you speak of and satan mentioned in the bible both seem to be one in the same or one in agreement

They both try to get the children of men to go against Deu 6:4/ Mar 12:29 / Eph 4:6.

Therefore they both speak of doctrine that is their own, and on their own behalf Joh 7:16

Therefore they both speak of their own will Joh 7:17

Therefore unrighteousness seem to both be in them Joh 7:18

They both seemingly do their own works and say they should be believed Joh 10: 37.

The both seem to be angels or messengers of light 2Co 11:14.
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To Sum it up:
Taking what you and the english translation bible says as kosher; then both are liars, deceivers, unrighteous, etc

Oeste said:
I will not allow you to flame my thread by making things personal.

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Iymus said:
it seems like asking something considerately of you is. my apologies if my expectations are too much.

I don't have to think when you have told me.

Your Messiah is one who has glorified himself as specifically being the God of Abraham and his descendants; One who does his own will, works, etc.

What I can also tell you is that Satan also tries to be those things in the hearts of men.

What I can also tell you is that the Messiah I acknowledge does not seem to operate in the way how your messiah operates and the way satan operates;

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Joh 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Joh 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

Brian2 · Aug 22, 2020

Iymus said:
lean on whatever interpretation you want to lean on; however Eph 4:6 clearly tells us One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

This God and Father who is the only Lord God ; is also one God and Father over our lord

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Lord God will be giving his anointed dominion over the kingdom but in the end all authority and power goes back to him because he is the Father or Originator.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
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I have wanted to answer this post 311 but it is hard to know how when I agree with it since most of it is scripture.
I do not know what you believe and so I do not know what interpretation you have put on those scriptures except that it is not a Trinitarian one.
It seems to not be a JW one either.
I can say however how I see a couple of things.
The Son was not created and was with and in His Father before He became a man and being in the form of God He had everything except the position of His Father. He was equal in all things except that He is the Son and is subject to His Father, and when the time came He carried that reality through into becoming a man because that is what He is like as the perfect image of His Father. And when He became a man He did not lose His equality with His Father, His God nature continued on with Him into manhood so that He was and is both human and God in nature.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but of course He is still the uncreated Son, except now He is the uncreated Son who has stepped into creation.
This Son now has come into His inheritance and is being given all the things that actually are His rightfully as the Son. He is now on the throne with all power and authority and His Father is serving Him in putting everything under His feet.
But even in this position the Son does what is pleasing to His Father, that is His nature. But the Father is above the Son because He is the Father and is the source of the Son and now is also a man with a God, so I guess that means that at the end, whenever that is, the Son shall also Himself be subject to the Father and God will be all in all. At the moment it is Christ who is all in all (Col 3:11) just as at the moment it is Christ who is ruling in God's Kingdom.
But also at the end I don't see that this is really going to change anything really since it is Jesus who is going to be ruling on David's throne forever and since in Jesus dwells bodily all the fullness of absolute deity (Col 2:9) and since Jesus does only what is pleasing to His Father now anyway.
The truth is that the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father and the Father and the Son are one. The Son is God by nature and is called Yahweh by implication through the Bible.
Deut 6:4 can mean that God is a composite one, just as a man and woman are said to be at Gen 2:24.
Where does this leave the Spirit? In the Bible the Spirit is living and has the properties of a living person and is called Yahweh but implication if nothing else and is in God flows from God continuously. There is but one Spirit and this Spirit has the Son and Father in it. As a living Spirit who is in and comes from God, this Spirit is God also,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and of course the Spirit does the will of God. Through the Spirit the Father and the Son come and dwell with and in a believer who loves God.
As I say I don't know what you believe, as an Abrahamic, and no doubt you disagree with much of what I said, and no doubt it is not said wonderfully well and I don't really ever expect to be able to explain things about God 100% clearly, which means that I don't expect to be able to explain what the Bible tells us about God 100% clearly, but there you have it.
It is so much easier to see the distinctness of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit than to see their Oneness, but that oneness is taught in the scriptures.
And I think I could supply scriptures for whatever I said.

Iymus · Aug 22, 2020

Brian2 said:
The Son was not created

any verses or conventional wisdom says that he himself is not a creation or possession of the Heavenly Father before the beginning?
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following may or may not be a contradiction to each other

Brian2 said:
But the Father is above the Son because He is the Father and is the source of the Son and now is also a man with a God

Brian2 said:
The Son was not created

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Brian2 said:
it is Jesus who is going to be ruling on David's throne forever

until the end Luk 1:32 , 1Co 15:24-28.
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Brian2 said:
since in Jesus dwells bodily all the fullness of absolute deity (Col 2:9)

most importantly Col 1:19 & Jas 1:17
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Brian2 said:
The Son is God by nature and is called Yahweh by implication through the Bible.

perhaps Son of God by nature and declared Most High thru the prophets in the OT and by himself and followers in NT.

Besides possibly the Son giving his name to Jacob; I do not know his new name to my knowledge. Perhaps the Father's name he came in, but not his new name.
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Brian2 said:
Deut 6:4 can mean

Isaiah 43:10 & Eph 4:6 & John 7:17

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In Deuteronomy 6 verse 2 I see "his" and not "their"

HIS (determiner, pronoun) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary
His is the possessive form of he,

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Brian2 said:
Deut 6:4 can mean that God is a composite one, just as a man and woman are said to be at Gen 2:24.

In Deuteronmy 6 verse 4 I see "is" and not "are"

Is vs. Are.

When deciding whether to use is or are, look at whether the noun is plural or singular. If the noun is singular, use is. If it is plural or there is more than one noun, use are. The cat is eating all of his food.

tigger2 · Aug 22, 2020

I expect when I give answers I will get answers in return. So far my OP remains unanswered. Perhaps the questions are too much.

...................................

OP: Dilemma #3: Watchtower claims Jesus is “a god” (John 1:1) but not “a god” (John 10:33)

This is perhaps the most bizarre dilemma of all. Witnesses believe that the WT teaches Jesus is “a god”. Perhaps the Watchtower does, but as I am about to illustrate they just don’t teach it all the time. In fact, the WT claims that at John 10:33, Jesus specifically denies he’s “a god” at all! The reason for this will become clear.

.... [Yes I've skipped a few paragraphs to get to the point.]

But our clever "truth-finding" friends at the Watchtower have a solution. A "twofer" they gleaned straight out of the text. Not only does Jesus deny he's God at John 10:33, he also denies he's "a god"!:

.... [skipped section with link to Watchtower para. 66. It's examined below]

How the Watchtower got Jesus to deny being God and/or "a god" is baffling, but I suppose if you're a Jehovah [sic] Witness it's all there right there, embedded somewhere in the text.

Unfortunately that still leaves us with a huge problem. Let's not forget that Jehovah['s] Witnesses tell us Jesus is "a god" at John 1:1. so it's really disconcerting to see them claiming Jesus denies ever being "a god" by the time John 10:33 rolls around. But as the quote and link above [para. 66, "Prehuman Existence." 1962] shows this is the "current truth" even to this day.

It's a confusing, contradictory Christology.

....................................

The above part of the OP is a lie (five times repeated)!

In spite of Oeste's 'reasoning,' the WT has not declared that Jesus ever denied being "a god!"

"Dilemma #3: Watchtower claims Jesus is “a god” (John 1:1) but not “a god” (John 10:33)"

Jesus never claimed to be God or 'a god.' John (about 60 years after Jesus' death) claimed that the Word was God (or more grammatically probable, "a god"). But Jesus never did, and the Watchtower never claimed that he did. Furthermore he never denied that he could be called "a god," as you say, and the Watchtower does not say that he did, as you say!

Full quote from 1962 WT:

66 Jesus told those who wanted to stone him that he had not claimed to be God or a god, even though Psalm 82:6 had called some men, some Israelite judges, “gods.” Jesus had been speaking to the Jews about God as being his Father, which would mean that he, Jesus, was the Son of God. Jesus said to them: “No one will snatch them [my sheep] out of my hand. What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are one.”

67 After Jesus said that, his very argument that followed proved that he was not claiming to be God, nor was he saying that he and his heavenly Father were one God, a trinitarian God in which he and his Father were two Persons along with a third Person, “God the Holy Ghost.” Jesus did not say, I and the Father and the Holy Ghost are one. He mentioned no “Holy Ghost.” - John 10:28-30 .

Show me exactly where the WT has claimed that Jesus denied being "a god."

YoursTrue · Aug 22, 2020

Brian2 said:
Jesus can be replaced, otherwise we would not be having these discussions. God raised the man Jesus of Nazareth from the dead. A man can die. But of course the WT has changed the meaning of things spoken of in the Bible even when the meaning is plain, because these things relate to other wrong parts of their doctrine.
A man can did and when a man's body dies the soul does not die, so even when the body of Jesus died, His soul did not die. (Matt 10:28) There is no going out of existence when we die physically, that is just wrong doctrine of the WT and definitions of words etc have had to be changed (by the WT) for that doctrine. (eg soul, spirit, hades, sheol, death, resurrection etc)

No one else was sent to speak for God as a man from heaven and die as the sacrificial offering that God accepted to be the judge. If you think so, or that he could have been replaced, please explain yourself, hopefully in clear language.

YoursTrue · Aug 22, 2020

Brian2 said:
Jesus can be replaced, otherwise we would not be having these discussions. God raised the man Jesus of Nazareth from the dead. A man can die. But of course the WT has changed the meaning of things spoken of in the Bible even when the meaning is plain, because these things relate to other wrong parts of their doctrine.
A man can did and when a man's body dies the soul does not die, so even when the body of Jesus died, His soul did not die. (Matt 10:28) There is no going out of existence when we die physically, that is just wrong doctrine of the WT and definitions of words etc have had to be changed (by the WT) for that doctrine. (eg soul, spirit, hades, sheol, death, resurrection etc)

Thinking about this, how do you think Jesus could have been or could be replaced? Your following statement, "otherwise we would not be having these discussions" means what? That Jesus could have been replaced? Jesus died and was resurrected. He was also from God, not quite but similar to Adam's creation. So what makes you think that Jesus could have been replaced?
Yes, the soul can die. Breath as in Adam's nostrils does not have personality unless you really want to distort the issue, like saying maybe Adam was alive in heaven before the breath (nephesh - soul) was placed in his nostrils. Adam was created as a full-grown man, not a baby. He had adult capabilities. And God taught him.
The breath (nephesh) came from God, and God doesn't leave it to flutter somewhere when a person dies in that sense. It goes back to Him in a certain sense, the body goes back to dust, but it (breath) does not have a personality. Unfortunately so many do not have the right understanding of breath and soul and how they can be misrepresented in interpretation. Sad, really.
Matthew 10:28 says the soul can be destroyed. Destroy doesn't mean live, unless some want to misinterpret the scriptures and twist them around.
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
I suppose you'll figure that the rich mean hot in hades is not a symbolic illustration given by Jesus, but is real, and really hot in some underworld called Hades, hmm? And perhaps you think that for real in the physical (not symbolic) sense that the beggar Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom?
Your statement that Jesus could be replaced, based on your comments, makes no sense whatsoever. Anyway, have a nice day. Looking forward...

YoursTrue · Aug 22, 2020

Iymus said:
any verses or conventional wisdom says that he himself is not a creation or possession of the Heavenly Father before the beginning?
--------------------------
....

Gonna be hard pressed to find a cohesive answer to that one.

rational experiences · Aug 22, 2020

His story says, males as a group invented the human inferred status of the sciences, said science was female by FAKERY. O maths, spatial body a womb, spatial body womb abominated/changed.

Reality cold spatial womb, owns all reasons why any body is present in mass for a male scientist to talk about. Cold space he says is the Creator theme in maths/science.

And that thinking interactive reasoning, his life partner. Why today he owns a string theory that displaces his adult male to female life partnership with a family to own a baby as his human future. He built the machine as his future and then quotes information to everyone about who he is as a thinker, what his theory is....says I sent you all to Hell before as a human preaching to a human.

That status is a scientist with a machine claiming bio theory Genetic presence, instead I will align it to a machine and a reaction instead.

Then he says and by the way I sacrificed my own life because of it....but this science statement is after the ICE AGE.

So his beast mentality lying quotes....old atmospheric heavenly Earth mass owned giants living inside of it, beasts. And quotes, a long time before this outcome, I was a higher body physical male life on Earth with a higher animal life support in the Garden Nature and evicted self out....when I sent us to Hell he says.

Modern day science therefore owned why he increased x mass natural light gases burning for natural light and natural bio health. By his beast science theme.

For he does not own origin strings in natural history to Earth, he themed science again after the ICE AGE actually.

So his science intention today is to burn extra atmospheric gases so that the heavenly mass will return to the Nature Garden theme, where just the beast life exists and not modern day animals or modern day humans, in relativity.

For he is not string theorising natural origins, which anyone who uses common sense would realize. You cannot put ICE into a formula for a machine reaction to claim natural strung together thesis for reactive Earth history and its converting changes, to then pretend you are copying it in a machine.

In fact the consciousness would be claiming, a machine and a human inventor/Creator caused the ICE AGE on Earth by historic machine and male living before.....in his aware thinking theories as a human thinker.

Therefore when life says, we got saved and lived sacrificed and apply this reasoning by a Jesus statement, then Jesus in the past would claim, and Jehovah, the Hebrew Temple builders taught me why life was being sacrificed as a biological healer Genetic theme. They taught me why the Temple was evil, as a history.

Armageddon is where anyone who is not a Jehovah’s Witness will die, being destroyed by Jehovah God’s wrath. What many of them don’t seem to fully realize, though, is that before they see that paradise they will have to walk through billions of dead bodies that they would have to bury.
Jehovah’s Witnesses: The Religion that Lies …

medium.com/@SylvianeNuccio/jehovah-s-witnesses-t

History says, life being sacrificed thought it was their LAST DAYS on Earth by all activated natural disasters and life attacks in phenomena witness. And documented in detail like historians do, the event.

The human reasoning, G O D as O natural light, being gases burning and cooling and God O constantly being replaced by thinking above our heads conditions, is the only true God....and it is a stated thought upon process.

G O D would still exist even if all life was sacrificed by extra gas by mass burning in UFO presence.

Human reasoning to detail that story....for the beast life, Satanic attack the dinosaur giant life then lived on God Earth, living in side of the God heavens, our atmosphere when our life was evicted from the Garden.

Why it was taught as being relative for G O D O then supported only the beast.

These statements equated since when is a dinosaur life holier than our own?

Just to bring to your realisation what you were really supporting, that it was Holy for life to be sacrificed, when the term HOLY was introduced to the documents to state, never give G O D a name and also never change any condition given a HOLY statement....as it was DATA correlated after all fact of all evidences.

Life was saved living sacrificed the teaching. Why do you think we are with Jesus, the sacrificed life? Common sense was always the science argument that told science that science was wrong. For science is wrong.

YoursTrue · Aug 22, 2020

Oeste said:
From my conversation and studies with Jehovah Witnesses they sincerely believe Jesus claims to be “a god” at John 10:33, but they would be wrong…not only from majority Christian standards but by Watchtower standards as well. I believe this is because the WT recognizes the dilemma of proclaiming Jesus “a god” at John 10:33 even if many Witnesses do not.

Let’s take a look at a traditional (NIV) and the Watchtower’s New World Translation (NWT) paying special attention to verse 33:

30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” NIV

OR:

33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” NWT

We’ll proceed with the “a god” translation as if it were correct, just to see how much mileage we get. Unfortunately this crashes us head first into our first dilemma.

Dilemma #1: Blasphemy

As soon as Jesus said “The Father and I are one” the Jews picked up stones. When Jesus asked why, the Jews explained it was for making himself “a god” according to the Watchtower’s translation.

This presents us with our first dilemma. According to the NWT, the blasphemy was for abusing Jehovah’s name, not some “gods’” name:

View attachment 41469

Source: https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/nwt/books/john/10/#v43010033

In effect, both JW.ORG and the NWT are giving backhand support for the Trinitarian translation that the crowd was about to stone Jesus for calling himself Jehovah, and not for simply referring to himself as “a god”.

Dilemma #2: Biblical/Historical record

Jehovah Witnesses and other Arians are quick to tell us that judges, magistrates, and other powerful people were routinely considered or called “gods”. The problem here is that the NWT tells us the Jews were about to stone Jesus for calling himself “a god”. It doesn’t matter if the Jews were wrong or correct in their interpretation, what matters is their explanation that Jesus should be stoned simply for calling himself “a god”.

Let’s think about this…If Jews are stoning Jesus for being “a god” then all the other “gods”…their judges, magistrates, and other “powerful people”…were equally subject to being stoned by the Jews!

Yet the biblical and historical record is absolutely silent in this regard. There is no record of Jews stoning their judges, magistrates, or other “powerful people” simply for considering themselves “gods”.

So where’s the evidence?

Dilemma #3: Watchtower claims Jesus is “a god” (John 1:1) but not “a god” (John 10:33)

This is perhaps the most bizarre dilemma of all. Witnesses believe that the WT teaches Jesus is “a god”. Perhaps the Watchtower does, but as I am about to illustrate they just don’t teach it all the time. In fact, the WT claims that at John 10:33, Jesus specifically denies he’s “a god” at all! The reason for this will become clear.

Let go back to the Watchtower’s biblical scenario:

The mob is about to stone Jesus for blasphemy…calling himself “a god” according to the WT translation. They have rocks in hand, and they're itching to fly. But Jesus, having grabbed the crowd’s undivided attention does something curious. He quotes Psalm 82:6:

I have said, “You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High. But like mortals you will die, and like rulers you will fail.” Psalm 82:6-7.

The last thing you want to do with a stone wielding crowd is compare yourself to Israel’s judges of old. Why? Because the judges of old were condemned by Jehovah God! In other words, Jesus is saying “The judges of old were “sons of God”, I am the son of God, the judges of old were “gods” and I just told you I was “a god”, the judges of old were condemned by God…so what on earth is taking you so long to condemn me?”

If that doesn’t get a rock hurtling by your ear, I don’t know what would, and therein lays the Watchtower’s dilemma. They simply can’t have Jesus comparing himself to the corrupt judges of Israel by declaring he’s “a god” at John 10:33, and they certainly can’t have the crowd thinking that Jesus had just declared himself “God”.

But our clever “truth finding” friends at the Watchtower have a solution. A “twofer” they gleaned straight out of the text. Not only does Jesus deny he’s God at John 10:33, he also denies he’s “a god”! :

· 66 Jesus told those who wanted to stone him that he had not claimed to be God or a god, even though Psalm 82:6 had called some men, some Israelite judges, “gods.”

- The Watchtower—9/15/1962 pp. 560-567

source: Prehuman Existence — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (see paragraph 66)

How the WT got Jesus to deny being God and/or “a god” at John 10:33 is baffling, but I suppose if you’re a Jehovah Witness it’s all there right there, embedded somewhere in the text.

Unfortunately that still leaves us with a huge problem. Let’s not forget that Jehovah Witnesses tell us Jesus is “a god” at John 1:1 so it’s really disconcerting to see them claiming Jesus denies ever being “a god” by the time John 10:33 rolls around. But as the quote and link above shows, this is “current truth” even to this day.

It’s a confusing, contradictory Christology.

But of course hellfire is not confusing and contradictory? And the trinity is not only confusing, but it's a mystery? And replacing this earth and heaven is not confusing? Yes, you need to ask and stick to one question at a time. It's almost like Jesus on trial. In fact, it IS Jesus on trial.

YoursTrue · Aug 22, 2020

oldbadger said:
Ah! You're going to quote Apostle John, who placed the clearing of the Temple in the first week of Jesus's mission, rather than the last.

And we've got to worry about a fine detail in his gospel...? OK......

Well, that's John...
In the above verses it is 'The Jews' who are in contention with Jesus and not the corrupt, greedy and hypocritical priesthood that Jesus was really against. With tragic errors like that in the verses, you've got a much bigger problem that the with a single line of speech.

What language was Jesus speaking to 'The Jews' in? Eastern or Western Aramaic?

Who translated that in to Greek?

Who translated that in to Early English?

All the Jews thought that they were the children of God, But Jesus called himself 'Son of Man' in the synoptics.

Just wondering if Oeste ever answered this. I haven't read all the posts yet. Also your question about what language was Jesus speaking to the Jews in?

And who translated that to Early English? (good questions...) To make it clear, though, I believe Jesus was given divine power, he was with God "in the beginning," and can rightfully be called a God, a very powerful one.

YoursTrue · Aug 22, 2020

Oeste said:
Okay, but did you actually read the OP?

We’ve already accepted the NWT as “correct” Deeje. We did that in my opening post. Why now do we have to question it? You’ve been a JW for what, nearly 50 years or so? Shouldn’t questions about the NWT have come up before you became a Witness?

HockeyCowboy threw out a non sequitur about the Crusades and now you throw out another. There is not need to go into whether John 1:1 is "God" or "a god" because, for purposes of this discussion, we've accepted the "a god" definition at both John 1:1 and John 10:33 as "correct".

The point now is to determine where that leaves us. In other words, how do we exegete scripture with "a god" as a cornerstone of our Christology?

We do that by asking a few questions, and If we can't get answers or have to avoid acknowledging them altogether, then there is great evidence our cornerstone is faulty.

I always knew hellfire was a ridiculous concept, never believed it way before I ever studied with the Witnesses. I never believed in the Trinity either before I studied with the Witnesses. Some Witnesses may have believed those things before they became Witnesses and studied the Bible, I never did believe those things. But there were other reasons. When I looked at those called Christian in the world, I thought they were all terribly misled. Until I found the real followers of Christ. (Jehovah's Witnesses.) I didn't flinch when I learned Jesus was (is) a "God." Because I always believed there is one (only one) Almighty God, not to be confused with being one and the same with Jesus, or maybe in the mystery concept, not the same but the same like two persons with different functions with a third person said to be comprising one God. No. Never did I believe that, so it was not a big change for me. And there are more reasons why I became one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and am happy and thrilled to this day that God allowed me to get to know Him. And his Son. And what the future of the earth will be.

rational experiences · Aug 23, 2020

Healthy returned humans first with new animal spirits. Dinosaurs deceased, frozen Earth, heavenly heating gas changes.

4 sea of the son introduced.

Life said I now belong to 4 sea of the son....seasons life returning by DNA genetic return every 12 December, new ice remassing. Earth life given a STABLE status.

Male group evolved from natural spiritual self, re built evil science occult, UFO came back attacked Earth again, life mutated.

Moses history says, life, natural, his story healthy life returned, sacrificed given mutation, barely survived. Small family groups survived but were mutants with the animal life....as the theme I will survive and live on. As a mutated life.

Why they said their science pyramid was trans MUTATION.

We then proclaim trans gender is one of the causes of atmospheric feed being changed.

The stable state. How it was taught.

Around 13,000 to maybe 10,000 years ago, newly re introduced science mutated our DNA genetics, and we had to heal again.

The his story of evil occult science practice, theme, probability of return the Destroyer science mentality.

Our history says, returned healthy life with newly returned small animal species.

Attacked in the Moses pyramid history, Earth radiated fall out, mutated life.

Life healed and returned from its Exodus and then new Temple pyramid science sacrificed it again. So we have lived with UFO mass entry into Earth living saved sacrificed ever since. How the theme reason for life suffering was taught.

Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

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