Witchcraft in Judaism

dantech said:

Just thought I'd weigh in here.
I remember reading something about Bil'am in Me'am Loez about how he got his "powers". It had something to do with meeting two angels named Aza and Az'El which had left God's service on a test to show that humans don't deserve God's mercy. They were given free will and eventually started thinking of themselves as Gods.
I don't remember all the details but they had sent Bil'am on a mission to gather different things, and offer them sacrifices and ultimately completely devote himself to them. Once he did, he was shown how to use dark magic.
It was a long process, and it was described in some detail to show that to be dedicated to Avoda Zara, it wasn't a spur of the moment kind of thing, but rather a long demanding process which requires true dedication.

If you'd like, I could try to find it for you. I read this over a year ago so grain of salt.


Something else I "remember"...
Genesis 25:6


I believe it was Rashi who brought a source from Sanhedrin to explain that Abraham told them the names of impurity.

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That'd be great.

Harel13 said:

That'd be great.

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+1

Harel13 said:

That'd be great.

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I'll try to find it tomorrow

Harel13 said:

This is something that's been bugging me for a couple of years now: I get that there used to be actual witches that wielded the dark forces (that woman from Ein-Dor aka the witch of Endor, stories from the gemara, etc), and I get that there are dark forces in the world (discussed well by the Ramchal in Derech Hashem) - but how did people originally figure out how to use these dark forces? How did they figure out the techniques, spells(?), etc? Were they just mumbling gibberish all day and seeing what worked?
I mean, were Adam and Eve created with witchcraft knowledge inserted into their minds? Even if so, after having sinned in the Garden, why pass that knowledge on?

Kind of a weird question...

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Fun thread, Harel. Tell us more about witches. For example, which witch is wich ?

Jake1001 said:

Fun thread, Harel. Tell us more about witches. For example, which witch is wich ?

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The sandwich, of course. Hillel the Sage could have told you that.

Harel13 said:

The sandwich, of course. Hillel the Sage could have told you that.

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He would also remind us that it is important to use real mayo, not phony stuff, you know, sham mayo.

dantech said:

I'll try to find it tomorrow

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Not be pushy (well, okay, I am being pushy. I'm Jewish, after all), but have you found the source?

Harel13 said:

Not be pushy (well, okay, I am being pushy. I'm Jewish, after all), but have you found the source?

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It's in Me'Am Loez under parashat Balak.

It starts at פרק כב פסוק ה.

It starts at this page but continues on for several pages. You'll be able to find more answers to your questions probably if you read it. I'm going to reread it this week

@Harel13 let me know when you read it, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

dantech said:

Just thought I'd weigh in here.
I remember reading something about Bil'am in Me'am Loez about how he got his "powers". It had something to do with meeting two angels named Aza and Az'El which had left God's service on a test to show that humans don't deserve God's mercy. They were given free will and eventually started thinking of themselves as Gods.
I don't remember all the details but they had sent Bil'am on a mission to gather different things, and offer them sacrifices and ultimately completely devote himself to them. Once he did, he was shown how to use dark magic.
It was a long process, and it was described in some detail to show that to be dedicated to Avoda Zara, it wasn't a spur of the moment kind of thing, but rather a long demanding process which requires true dedication.

If you'd like, I could try to find it for you. I read this over a year ago so grain of salt.

Something else I "remember"...
Genesis 25:6

I believe it was Rashi who brought a source from Sanhedrin to explain that Abraham told them the names of impurity.

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I read through the Me'am Loez that you posted and I didn't see anything stating that mel'achim Aza and Az'El left the service of Hashem. I also didn't see anything in the text that points to the concept of "black magic" or even specifically anything that was proven to work/powers that Bilam actually had that worked on consistant basis. I.e. what I see in the Hebrew describes the same kind of stuff that other Ovdei Avodah Zara have done in the past and what is done today.

For example, the text that you posted states that Balaq was seeking out the (קוסמים) to:


This translates into: "To break their luck/success and to weaken their strength." Further, it explains that Balaq went to Bilam because it was beleived by the locals that Bilam had knowledge (נחש) "interpretation of omens/signs, etc." and (מגיד עתידות) "future telling/fortune telling" that doesn't really translate into "black magic." Also, it is important to note that the description in the page you posted doesn't state that on his own Bilam actually had these powers. I.e. in reality he had access to something that in reality was fixed, proven to work in all situaitons, and worked idependantly.

It further states that some say that Bilam. at first, was a (פותר חלומות) "someone who gives solutions to dreams"; same as what Yoseph was called. Yet, after a certain time he became a (קוסם). Important to note, (קסם) is defined as "decision making based on lot or sign; or by using tools to make predictions." Rambam describes all of these types in Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Avodah Zara 11:4-7.

It further says, after he did that [i.e. after he wasn't a Qosem anymore] he was able to get some (רוח הקודש) and he was able to be a navi for the situation mentioned in the parashah. Yet, from what it written his nevuah was only for the sake of what he stated in the parashah concerning the future of Am Yisrael. Yet, nothing beyond that.

We know from the archeological record that Bilam was actually historically "considered" by some of the local population to be someone who determine elements of the future.

So, is there something that is mentioned that gives the impression that he some actual proven powers?

Here are a few examples about what I posted earlier. These are the kinds of things that some claim that Bilam and others were doing.

Ehav4Ever said:

I read through the Me'am Loez that you posted and I didn't see anything stating that mel'achim Aza and Az'El left the service of Hashem. I also didn't see anything in the text that points to the concept of "black magic"

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The English translation of the Zohar by Daniel C. Matt has details about these two angels in the footnotes. The black magic is discussed there as well. I'm still reviewing it.

dybmh said:

The English translation of the Zohar by Daniel C. Matt has details about these two angels in the footnotes. The black magic is discussed there as well. I'm still reviewing it.

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Can you provide the reference for where in the Zohar this is found? I am always catious about English translations, especially when it comes to this type of information.

dybmh said:

The English translation of the Zohar by Daniel C. Matt has details about these two angels in the footnotes. The black magic is discussed there as well. I'm still reviewing it.

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I found the source. It appears though this information is not presented as conclusively something that actually took place historically. What I mean is that the Midrash places this story to Rav Yoseph as a response to his students when they asked him (מהו עזאל) based on the statement of Ribbi Yishmael in Yoma 67b (תנא דבי ר' ישמעאל: עזאזל שמכפר על מעשה עוזא ועזאל') that Azazel is an atonement of the actions fo Uzza and Azel.

That is way I am also iffy about translations especially when it comes to midrash. Given that not everything in a midrash is to be taken as historical. Also, there are those who are against the idea that the melakhim have free will or the ability to rebel against Hashem. (This was a part of the arguement that some like the Dor Daim in Yemen had against the Zohar, or at least how some people were learning it.)

Here how the Zohar states it in Hebrew:


Starting at the very beginning the Zohar seems to be bringing up discussions about how Bilam was able to do what he did in terms of Nevuah. I starts with making the statement that no other Navi would be like Mosheh Rabbeinu but mentioning that for the non-Jewish world Bilam was their greatest navi. It appears that everything that follows, even the above, are various opinions about how this was possibe for Bilam.

Ehav4Ever said:

Here how the Zohar states it in Hebrew:

אשר מחזה ש-די יחזה, מהו מחזה ש-די, אלו הם נופל וגלוי עינים, ואלו הם עזא ועזאל, נופל זהו עזה... שנפל פעם אחת מן השמים ונפל פעם אחרת אחר כך בעומק החושך, עזאל הוא גלוי עינים, כי לא נזרק עליו חושך, משום שלא התקיף ולא הרגיז כאותו שלמעלה, ובלעם קרא אותם מחזה ש-די שהם נופל וגלוי עינים... (שם תכד, ועיין שם עוד)י​

Starting at the very beginning the Zohar seems to be bringing up discussions about how Bilam was able to do what he did in terms of Nevuah. I starts with making the statement that no other Navi would be like Mosheh Rabbeinu but mentioning that for the non-Jewish world Bilam was their greatest navi. It appears that everything that follows, even the above, are various opinions about how this was possibe for Bilam.

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Right.

But from Torah don't we know the intention of Balak and Bilaam was to use occult practice?

Ehav4Ever said:

That is way I am also iffy about translations

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What do u have for Zohar 3:192a? Specifically the paragraph starting "He sent messengers to Bilaam..." and ending with "28 levels of sorcerous witchcraft with a bird"?

dybmh said:

What do u have for Zohar 3:192a? Specifically the paragraph starting "He sent messengers to Bilaam..." and ending with "28 levels of sorcerous witchcraft with a bird"?

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I will look it up when I get back home. In a few hours.

dybmh said:

What do u have for Zohar 3:192a? Specifically the paragraph starting "He sent messengers to Bilaam..." and ending with "28 levels of sorcerous witchcraft with a bird"?

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Okay. What is says is the following:


So, again the key statement is (כ"ה דרגין דחרשי קוסמין דצפור) with the key word being (חרשי קוסמין). BTW the version I found says 25 levels and not 28.

You have to remember that (קסם) is defined as "decision making based on lot or sign; or by using tools to make predictions." Also, (חרש) means a charmer/some translate as sorcerer but given that the root is (חרש) meaning silent it would appear that this denotes the method that they used - such as silent murmering. Another approach is the other meaning of (חרש) and that is to be entangled/chocked/obstructed. So, for this type a bird appears to be the sign/tool for making the prediction or the decision, also that the use of the bird has a type of charm element to it. Rambam describes all of this in Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Avodah Zara 11:4-7.Based on everything Rambam description it seems that each Qosem had some method they employed to make people think they had some special power. His description sounds a lot like what you see in the James Randy videos where he debunks the paranormal and pseudoscientific claims.

Reading further, according to Ribi Yossi - Balaq sent messangers to Bilam because he knew that Am Yisrael's success wasn't natural therefore he was looking for something even more unnatural to offset it.

dybmh said:

Right.

But from Torah don't we know the intention of Balak and Bilaam was to use occult practice?

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We know that Balak's intention was to get Bilam to find a way to overturn Am Yisrael's success and get a tactical advantage any way he could. Bilam's intention was to get rich, so to speak, while getting around what he had been told by Hashem. We know that later Bilam's advice was, "Send in the pretty girls and let Am Yisrael defeat themselves."

Their methods were the methods of Avodah Zara pesent in this part of the world. Yet, as the Rambam points out it is pretty much based on trickery and falsehood. Parashat Balaq pretty much proves out that the kind of methods they were using doesn't work against Am Yisrael because we have Torah and we know there is no real power in it.