lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Luke 16 says absolutely nothing about living forever.
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Jesus Said "It Is Finished"
- Thread starter Nova2216
- Start date
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Ladies and gentlemen, we have big news about Bible verses that people have been getting wrong. Romans 6:23 really should say the wages of sin is separation from God but the gift of God is to let you get close to Him. Malachi 4 should say that the day is coming that will burn like an oven and the wicked will be stubble but they wil not really be burned up, they will just be separated from God and they will not really be ashes under your feet because that is just a phrase that means separated from God. Stay tuned - more to come.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
NEWS FLASH NEWS FLASH
Separation from God. But God is omnipresent, He is EVERYWHERE. There is nowhere that is away from God. So how can death be separation from God? Maybe we should just let words mean what they say instead of trying to make them fit our pre-determined beliefs.
Separation from God. But God is omnipresent, He is EVERYWHERE. There is nowhere that is away from God. So how can death be separation from God? Maybe we should just let words mean what they say instead of trying to make them fit our pre-determined beliefs.
Nova2216
Active Member
It is clear the spirits were existing after departing from the physical bodies. (Luke 16:19-31)
Something you deny.
Therefore you oppose the word of God. (Jn 12:48)
Nova2216
Active Member
Still grasping for straws.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
In Mathew 8 Jesus drives demons out of people and into pigs. These demons are spirits but not human spirits. A person has his own human spirit but can also be inhabited by demon spirits. I thought we decided earlier that death is the separation of the spirit from the body. So if this person's human spirit left his body he would have been dead. I do not deny anything. You deny that dead means dead and burned up means burned up. And you cannot supply any scriptures to support that view.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
I will agree that ONE of us is grasping at straws but I will not say who it is until you have a chance to provide scripture that supports your belief.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is implicit in the scriptures because Jesus said that those who believe in Him gain eternal life whereas those who do not are condemned (John 3:16, John 3:36, John 17:3, 1 John 5:13, John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 4:13-14)
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
That verse has to mean they passed from spiritual death to spiritual life simply because nobody can pass from physical death to physical life since the body once dead remains dead.
As I said before, you have to read the verses in context. It is clear that wheat and tares verses are parables. What that means is that the meaning will only be apparent to those who have ears to hear, which does not mean physical ears, it means spiritual ears. We know it cannot mean physical ears because we all have physical ears.
Matthew 13:29-30 King James Version (KJV)
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
....................................
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
The answer is in the verses above. It does not say what "will die" means because Jesus wanted those who have spiritual ears to figure it out themselves To some it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but there are those to whom it is not given.
Clearly, there is spiritual death and there is physical death. You assume that when the scriptures say "die" they mean physical death, but there is no reason to think that at all. All Christians I have ever known know that there is such a thing as spiritual death and it is part of Christian theology.
29 Bible Verses about Spiritual Death
The Bible means what it says but it does not mean what you believe it means.
Everyone knows that Jesus spoke in parables and that means the verses were symbolic of something that was not altogether obvious. Death can be physical OR spiritual but you assume it means physical, and that is an interpretation, because nowhere do the scriptures say "physical death" so you have to look at the context and try to figure out what the verses mean. Burned up cannot literally mean burned up because only physical bodies can be burned up and we know that physical bodies do not exist after they die, so the only way they could be burned up would be in a crematorium, which is something people choose to do with their body, not something God does to them. One reason God gave us the ability to reason is so we could understand the scriptures, but we have to try to understand them and that means leaving our ego out and really wanting to know what they mean, rather than just wanting to be right.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The WAY someone can be separated from God is if they choose to separate themselves from God
By not believing in Jesus people separate themselves from God since Jesus was a Manifestation of God.
Those who do not believe in Jesus will not attain eternal life thus they will be spiritually dead in this life and in the afterlife.
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Nova2216
Active Member
What About "Out-of-Body Experiences"?
by Dave Miller, Ph.D.
(excerpt)
Does the inerrant Word of God have any insight into this question? Yes, it does. The Bible teaches that God places within each prenatal person at conception a spirit that makes each individual a unique personality that will survive physical death, living on immortally throughout eternity (Zechariah 12:1). At death, the spirit separates from the body and exists in a conscious condition in the spirit realm (1 Samuel 28:15; Luke 16:19-31). James 2:26 provides a precise, technical definition of death: “[F]or as the body without the spirit is dead….” In other words, the separation of one’s spirit from one’s body results in physical death, i.e., the death of the body, not the spirit. Thus the Bible defines physical “death” as separation—not “extinction” or “annihilation” (Thayer, 1901, p. 282; Vine, 1940, p. 276). Once the spirit of a person exits the body, he or she is “dead” (Genesis 35:18; 1 Kings 17:21-22). Science will undoubtedly never develop a test for ascertaining when the spirit exits the body. After all, “a spirit does not have flesh and bones” (Luke 24:39).
In order for a person’s dead body to come to life again, the spirit would have to reenter it. The term that the Bible uses to refer to such an occurrence is “resurrection.” The only way resurrection can occur is by means of supernatural intervention by an individual who possesses authority and power from God to miraculously cause the spirit to return to the body. Instances of deceased people in Bible history whose spirits returned to their dead bodies include the following:
Such occurrences were rare, and always meant that the resurrected individual later died again (Jesus excepted—Acts 13:34; Romans 6:9; cf. Enoch [Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5] and Elijah [2 Kings 2:11] who never died). In every case, a miracle was necessary to restore the separated spirit of the individual to the body. Miracles served a very specific purpose in Bible times—a purpose no longer needed (Miller, 2003). Since God has chosen not to work miracles today (1 Corinthians 13:8-11; Ephesians 4:8-13), and no resurrections will occur until the general resurrection (John 5:25-29; Luke 14:14; 1 Corinthians 15:12ff.), there is no such thing as an “out-of-body experience.”
Read more here.
What About "Out-of-Body Experiences"?
by Dave Miller, Ph.D.
(excerpt)
Does the inerrant Word of God have any insight into this question? Yes, it does. The Bible teaches that God places within each prenatal person at conception a spirit that makes each individual a unique personality that will survive physical death, living on immortally throughout eternity (Zechariah 12:1). At death, the spirit separates from the body and exists in a conscious condition in the spirit realm (1 Samuel 28:15; Luke 16:19-31). James 2:26 provides a precise, technical definition of death: “[F]or as the body without the spirit is dead….” In other words, the separation of one’s spirit from one’s body results in physical death, i.e., the death of the body, not the spirit. Thus the Bible defines physical “death” as separation—not “extinction” or “annihilation” (Thayer, 1901, p. 282; Vine, 1940, p. 276). Once the spirit of a person exits the body, he or she is “dead” (Genesis 35:18; 1 Kings 17:21-22). Science will undoubtedly never develop a test for ascertaining when the spirit exits the body. After all, “a spirit does not have flesh and bones” (Luke 24:39).
In order for a person’s dead body to come to life again, the spirit would have to reenter it. The term that the Bible uses to refer to such an occurrence is “resurrection.” The only way resurrection can occur is by means of supernatural intervention by an individual who possesses authority and power from God to miraculously cause the spirit to return to the body. Instances of deceased people in Bible history whose spirits returned to their dead bodies include the following:
- When the widow of Zaraphath’s son became sick and died, the prophet Elijah asked God to “let this child’s soul come back to him” (1 Kings 17:21). God granted the request and the child’s soul returned to his body.
- Elisha restored the life of a Shunammite woman’s son who had died after complaining of severe head pain—perhaps a brain hemorrhage (2 Kings 4).
- When Lazarus died, his body was in an advanced state of decay by the time Jesus arrived on the scene four days later to raise him from the dead. He brought back Lazarus’ spirit into his body with the words, “Lazarus, come forth!” (John 11:43).
- Among the supernatural events that accompanied the death of Christ on the cross, “the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many” (Matthew 27:51-53). Only God could have brought the spirits of these individuals back from the hadean realm and reinserted them into their buried bodies.
- When Tabitha/Dorcas became sick and died in the town of Joppa, her body was washed and laid in an upper room. The apostle Peter was in Lydda at the time, so urgent word was sent to him to come to Joppa. Clearing the room of the mourners upon his arrival, he “knelt down and prayed. And turning to the body he said, ‘Tabitha, arise.’ And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up” (Acts 9:40).
Such occurrences were rare, and always meant that the resurrected individual later died again (Jesus excepted—Acts 13:34; Romans 6:9; cf. Enoch [Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5] and Elijah [2 Kings 2:11] who never died). In every case, a miracle was necessary to restore the separated spirit of the individual to the body. Miracles served a very specific purpose in Bible times—a purpose no longer needed (Miller, 2003). Since God has chosen not to work miracles today (1 Corinthians 13:8-11; Ephesians 4:8-13), and no resurrections will occur until the general resurrection (John 5:25-29; Luke 14:14; 1 Corinthians 15:12ff.), there is no such thing as an “out-of-body experience.”
Read more here.
What About "Out-of-Body Experiences"?
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Both John 3:16 and John 3:36 talk about the difference between life and death. And I agree completely. Some spirits will obtain eternal life while others will not. But what we do not agree is the meaning of spiritual death. We know that physical death means that the physical body begins to decay and return to the dust. Why should spiritual death be different? The spirit ceases to exist. Malachi says it will be ashes under your feet. Why would spiritual death simply mean being away from God. If a prisoner is sentenced to death, he knows he is going to die, not just move to a different place. The spirits of saved people will OBTAIN eternal life as a gift from God. They are not automatically immortal. I still have not seen the scripture that says ALL spirits are immortal. Only the spirits of the saved.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Spiritual death is different because the spirit cannot decay like the body decays.
As I demonstrated in this post (#1078 Trailblazer, Saturday at 10:30 PM) Malachi 4 was not referring to the spirit being burned up, as nowhere in that chapter does he mention the spirit being burned up.
Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts
Can we agree that within the context of the afterlife, spiritual life is the same as eternal life, which is a quality of life, knowing God and being close to God?
Jesus said that spiritual life was being close to God, that means spiritual death must be being far from God.
John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Those souls that do not have spiritual life will go away into everlasting punishment, far from God...
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
That must mean they will still exist somewhere. If they are being punished they have to still exist.
The following verse does not say that only spirits that have eternal life will return to God. It says and the spirit shall return unto God.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
I believe we will all return to God but those who have rejected God will not be near to God and they will not have eternal life, so they will be as dead souls compared to the children of the Kingdom.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
I think we disagree on the meaning of "everlasting punishment". If a prisoner receives the death penalty and is put to death, I would say that that punishment lasts forever. I cannot accept that the difference between life and death is only a matter of location, The living are near God and the dead are far away from God. The Bible COULD very easily say the unsaved will be far away from God but it does not say that. I believe there is a reason for that and the reason is that the unsaved will cease to exist, be destroyed, burned up. I guess it is a matter of interpretation but to me life and death are not just location they are conditions that are the exact opposite. Perhaps we must just agree to disagree.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that that if a prisoner gets the death penalty the punishment ends when he dies, it does not last forever. By contrast, going to hell might last forever.
I did not say it was a location. I said it was a state of the soul, near meaning close to God in our hearts and far meaning far from God, remote from God, not having God in our hearts. Heart is symbolic for the center of our emotions.
Matthew 5:8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.”
Matthew 6:21 “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”
Luke 16:15 “And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.”
James 4:8 “Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.”
The Bible does say that.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
I am sure there are more verses like this, but I don't have time to look them up right now.
I agree that life and death are not about location but rather about state of the soul.
Is there a particular reason what you are so concerned about what happens to the unsaved?
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
It is interesting that you quote 2 Thesalonians 1:9 which talks about eternal DESTRUCTION and then turn around and say it does not really mean deastruction, just a state of heart. For me destruction means just what it says. I am not concerned about the state of the dead except to the extent that most of Christian belief is based on the immortality of the soul (spirit). The Bible says that immortality is a GIFT from God, not something that every spirit automatically has. My problem is that I cannot understand why people take very clear words in the Bible and then look for reasons why those words mean something different. Why doesn't death mean death and destruction mean destruction? I have yet to see one verse that explains this, only people's interpretation of what they mean.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
I have read your post very carefully. I think there is a lot that we agree on. Like I have said to Trailblazer, I think our difference is in "spiritual death". It seems that both of you believe that ALL souls (spirits) are immortal. I do not see this in the Bible. I see immortality as a GIFT from God. Some receive that gift and some do not. I do not see life and death as a matter of nearness to God or condition of the heart. I see spiritual death as the ending of that spirit's existence. I really do not see any way to proceed without resolving this question. Is there a resolution?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I was not saying that 2 Thesalonians 1:9 means a state of the heart.
According to 2 Thesalonians 1, those souls who do not know God and do not obey Jesus will suffer punishment of eternal destruction, so they will be destroyed for eternity. That punishment is being away from God.
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Destruction does not necessarily mean it no longer exists. I could just mean it is not repairable. That would be like a car that got on a wreck and could not be repaired. The car still exists in the junkyard, but it cannot be repaired. That is what might happen to a soul that turns away from God, unless God has mercy on that soul and draws that soul near to Him.
Destruction: the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired.
destruction means - Google Search
The Bible says that eternal life is a GIFT from God, not something that every spirit automatically has.
The Bible does not say that the soul dies, but it can be destroyed such that it is not repairable.
When the Bible says that the soul that sins dies,that means that soul does not have eternal life.
A soul that does not have eternal life is as good as dead.
In the Bible, the word life can mean physical life or spiritual life; the word death can mean physical death or spiritual death. It ALL depends upon what it says in the verse and the context of the verse within the chapter.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Have you ever wondered what is spiritual death in the Bible? This is an important question that affects every person ever born. Let’s answer three common questions people have about spiritual death in the Bible in this Ministry Minute with Kenneth Copeland.
1. What is Spiritual Death in the Bible?
Spiritual death is separation from God. When Adam disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden, he became separated from God by sin (Genesis 3). Sin always separates mankind from God. Why? Because God is perfect and pure. Psalm 5:4 describes God this way: “For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee” (KJV). Sin is the opposite of everything He is.
Until Adam’s sin, he enjoyed a close relationship with God. God had created the Garden of Eden and placed Adam in it. The Lord then created a helpmeet for Adam. Scripture tells us that right before God confronted Adam for his sin Adam and Eve heard the Lord walking through the garden (Genesis 3:8). God was not distant but rather present and involved. Adam had never known a day without the Lord’s care and relationship. But then He sinned. From that point on, a division existed between humanity and God.
2. Has Everyone Experienced Spiritual Death?
Every person is born with a spirit that is separated from God, which Adam introduced way back in the Garden. Because of this nature, everyone is born separated from God. Romans 3:23 puts it like this: “For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.”
No one is exempt. Every person at some point has disobeyed, lied, made a selfish decision or acted opposite of God’s nature.
3. How did Jesus Remedy Our Spiritual Death?
This spiritual death is the reason why Jesus’ sacrifice was so necessary. Mankind could not pay the price for its sin. The Law proved this. No matter how hard we try, we could never be good enough to eliminate the spiritual death, the separation that existed between God and humanity. But Jesus was.
Second Corinthians 5:17 says, “For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.” Jesus paid the price, He rectified our spiritual death, so that we could live free from the bondage of sin. Through faith in Jesus, we enjoy the grace that Jesus paid to give us. We are no longer separated from God. Instead, we can have a relationship with Him while on earth and the assurance of living in heaven with Him for eternity.
Hopefully, you have a better understanding of spiritual death in the Bible. If you would like to experience what it is to come alive spiritually through Jesus Christ, then watch this video we have created to show you how to pray the prayer of salvation. And if you pray it, please let us know. Contact us through our website or call us at 1-800-600-7395 or 1-817-852-6000 to speak with one of our KCM Prayer Ministers. We want to celebrate with you and welcome you as a brother and sister in the Lord!
You don’t have to live spiritually dead any more. Through Jesus you can have spiritual life! Share this post with a friend who needs to know Jesus is the answer to spiritual death!
What Is Spiritual Death in the Bible? Ministry Minute - Kenneth Copeland Ministries Blog
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
It is so sad that you quote all these verses about destruction and then look for any reason why they do not mean destruction. I am afraid that not having eternal life is NOT as good as dead. It IS dead. Why is hell so often associated with fire? We do not put things in a fire to punish them, we put things in a fire to destroy them. I guess these pagan ideas have been around so long and have been preached at people so long that they just won't go away.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Not having eternal life means being spiritually dead.
I do not believe that hell is a place where people are thrown and destroyed. I believe that hell is separation from God. Whether it is eternal will depend upon whether God has mercy on that soul.