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What would it take for you to NOT believe in God?

Soapy

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
KenS said:
As I mentioned before, there are two positions - one of which you are stipulating... I'm with the other group. :D Either way... we will see Him.
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Interesting... please tell me more - you were pretty vague in your reply.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Mock Turtle said:
As per the other thread about what it might take to believe in God, and presumably this might apply only to those who do have a belief in the one God, although it also might apply to others.
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I believe it can never happen. Once a thing is known it can't become unknown.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
ecco said:
Wow. I'll have to remember that the next time someone says atheists are closed-minded.
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I believe I can ask it this way. Can you disbelieve in a quark now that science reports that it has found one? I suppose you could say they are lying or mistaken but if you were the person actually doing the experiment you couldn't be persuaded otherwise.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Amanaki said:
What is close minded in having no doubt in the teaching and once spiritual teacher?
The one I doubt is my self and my own ability to enlighten to the teaching.
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I believe the Pharisees were convinced they were right in having Jesus crucified and the Sadducees were convinced there was no resurrection.
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Soapy said:
Interesting... please tell me more - you were pretty vague in your reply.
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As I view it... angels are spirits but still have a materiality to them. Yes, we do put off our body and will receive another but our spirits still have a materiality to it.

Mark 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. - Elias a Moses were not "sleeping" and yet for sure Moses didn't have a physical body.

2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

This doesn't give the understanding that it is later but simply to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not theGod of the dead, but of the living.

Doesn't say sleeping but the living.

Luke 16: 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Not sleeping, but talking and feeling (though not with their natural bodies)

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

No new bodies yet, but definitely not sleeping.

Anyway, that is just my viewpoint.
 
Soapy

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
KenS said:
As I view it... angels are spirits but still have a materiality to them. Yes, we do put off our body and will receive another but our spirits still have a materiality to it.

Mark 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. - Elias a Moses were not "sleeping" and yet for sure Moses didn't have a physical body.

2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

This doesn't give the understanding that it is later but simply to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not theGod of the dead, but of the living.

Doesn't say sleeping but the living.

Luke 16: 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Not sleeping, but talking and feeling (though not with their natural bodies)

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

No new bodies yet, but definitely not sleeping.

Anyway, that is just my viewpoint.
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I have a theory that the two figures seen with Jesus were not Moses and Elijah. My premise being that the observers only THOUGHT that was who they were. And why these two? Why not David, Abraham, or Jacob???

I also laugh sadly at the trinitarian position that sees Jesus and one other as being proof of trinity and try to press for a verse stating three persons, one as Jesus, and two others as proof of trinity... YET NONE IS FOUND other than those stating:
  • Jesus and ‘Moses and Elijah’
  • Jesus and ‘James and John’
Why aren’t these ‘proof of a trinity’??? Do I say, ‘obviously these are not’!! But then I ask, ‘How does...
  • “I and the Father are one [in agreement].... My Father is greater than I” or
  • “Steven, in spirit, Heaven open and saw GOD SEATED ON HIS THRONE with JESUS STANDING NEXT TO HIM”’
... prove a trinity? In fact it absolutely shows NOT A TRINITY nor any kind of EQUALITY at all.

Being in agreement has nothing to do with equality. Being LESSER than another PROVES INEQUALITY.

I have never heard a trinitarian actually state that Jesus is LESS THAN GOD yet Jesus states it clearly... he states also that what he has is GOVEN TO HIM BY HIS FATHER... but he himself only give glory to his Father... but remember he is GIVING BACK GLORY - glory his Father FIRST GAVE TO HIM... so no equality there...

And the SEATED enthroned position is the MASTER position... a STANDING POSITION is one of SUPPORT ... certainly a SUPPORTER is not EQUAL to Him whom he supports.

And, in any case, the text states that ‘GOD’ was seated on the throne... how can Jesus be STANDING next to God and BE GOD at the same time???

Trinity has strange ideologies that makes no sense to anyone whom they are trying to persuade but yet they still persuade plenty - nay, the majority... do christians not read that it is the MINORITY who travel the rocky road to eternal salvation??? Assuredly, scriptures also says that the majority won’t... so hay ho... there you go!!!
 
Soapy

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
KenS said:
But that would still dictate that you are alive to be listening.
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We are to be alive and listening... re: the bridesmaids and their candles!!! (Awake and with lit and trimmed lamps)
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Soapy said:
I have a theory that the two figures seen with Jesus were not Moses and Elijah. My premise being that the observers only THOUGHT that was who they were. And why these two? Why not David, Abraham, or Jacob???

I also laugh sadly at the trinitarian position that sees Jesus and one other as being proof of trinity and try to press for a verse stating three persons, one as Jesus, and two others as proof of trinity... YET NONE IS FOUND other than those stating:
  • Jesus and ‘Moses and Elijah’
  • Jesus and ‘James and John’
Why aren’t these ‘proof of a trinity’??? Do I say, ‘obviously these are not’!! But then I ask, ‘How does...
  • “I and the Father are one [in agreement].... My Father is greater than I” or
  • “Steven, in spirit, Heaven open and saw GOD SEATED ON HIS THRONE with JESUS STANDING NEXT TO HIM”’
... prove a trinity? In fact it absolutely shows NOT A TRINITY nor any kind of EQUALITY at all.

Being in agreement has nothing to do with equality. Being LESSER than another PROVES INEQUALITY.

I have never heard a trinitarian actually state that Jesus is LESS THAN GOD yet Jesus states it clearly... he states also that what he has is GOVEN TO HIM BY HIS FATHER... but he himself only give glory to his Father... but remember he is GIVING BACK GLORY - glory his Father FIRST GAVE TO HIM... so no equality there...

And the SEATED enthroned position is the MASTER position... a STANDING POSITION is one of SUPPORT ... certainly a SUPPORTER is not EQUAL to Him whom he supports.

And, in any case, the text states that ‘GOD’ was seated on the throne... how can Jesus be STANDING next to God and BE GOD at the same time???

Trinity has strange ideologies that makes no sense to anyone whom they are trying to persuade but yet they still persuade plenty - nay, the majority... do christians not read that it is the MINORITY who travel the rocky road to eternal salvation??? Assuredly, scriptures also says that the majority won’t... so hay ho... there you go!!!
Click to expand...

Trinity is a WHOLE NUDDER SUBJECT! :)

I take it for what was said... it was Moses and Elijah. That way I don't have to come up with my own ideas.
 
Soapy

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
KenS said:
Trinity is a WHOLE NUDDER SUBJECT! :)

I take it for what was said... it was Moses and Elijah. That way I don't have to come up with my own ideas.
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It’s nice to take that line and of course you are completely entitled to do so.
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Soapy said:
It’s nice to take that line and of course you are completely entitled to do so.
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Some Jewish perspectives:

``that the Shekinah never descends below, but (whylaw hvm) , "Moses and Elias" ascend above.'F3 T. Bab. Succab, fol. 5. 1.

``Moses, as thou hast given thy life for them (the Israelites) in this world, so in time to come (the days of the Messiah) when I shall bring Elias the prophet, (txak) (Nyab Mkynv) , "you two shall come together".''F4 Debarim Rabba, sect. 3. fol. 239. 2.

And there was some specifics as to what they talked about:

Luke 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
 
Soapy

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
KenS said:
Some Jewish perspectives:

``that the Shekinah never descends below, but (whylaw hvm) , "Moses and Elias" ascend above.'F3 T. Bab. Succab, fol. 5. 1.

``Moses, as thou hast given thy life for them (the Israelites) in this world, so in time to come (the days of the Messiah) when I shall bring Elias the prophet, (txak) (Nyab Mkynv) , "you two shall come together".''F4 Debarim Rabba, sect. 3. fol. 239. 2.

And there was some specifics as to what they talked about:

Luke 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
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How did they know who the men were?

Had they ever seen Moses or Elijah?

Could it be that they just saw TWO ANGELS with Jesus and knee jerked that they were Moses and Elijah?

Afterall, some people claim that ALMIGHTY GOD was one of the angels who were with Abraham?

Can you believe that ALMIGHTY GOD was an ANGEL?

Beware of what nonsense people imagine!!!
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Soapy said:
How did they know who the men were?

Had they ever seen Moses or Elijah?

Could it be that they just saw TWO ANGELS with Jesus and knee jerked that they were Moses and Elijah?

Afterall, some people claim that ALMIGHTY GOD was one of the angels who were with Abraham?

Can you believe that ALMIGHTY GOD was an ANGEL?

Beware of what nonsense people imagine!!!
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This isn't a good answer. How do I know that George Washington rode a white horse? Or talked to Simon Bolivar? Or had a conversation with Benjamin Franklin?

Do you know all that Jesus said to them? If there is a spiritual world, do you understand how it operates? How did Jesus "know their thoughts?" or saw Nathaniel under a tree before he even saw Nathaniel and knew he was a righteous man?

it says "Moses and Elias"... why can't I take it for what it says?
 
Soapy

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
KenS said:
This isn't a good answer. How do I know that George Washington rode a white horse? Or talked to Simon Bolivar? Or had a conversation with Benjamin Franklin?

Do you know all that Jesus said to them? If there is a spiritual world, do you understand how it operates? How did Jesus "know their thoughts?" or saw Nathaniel under a tree before he even saw Nathaniel and knew he was a righteous man?

it says "Moses and Elias"... why can't I take it for what it says?
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If my query is ‘not good’ I fancy Your reply is even worse...

How did the disciples KNOW IT WAS MOSES and ELIJAH?

You are ducking the question...!!! I am not....!

It’s a LEGITIMATE question.

We KNOW that claims from Trinitarians that ALMIGHTY GOD: YHWH, was one of the angels seen with Abraham, is COMPLETE NONSENSE.

Yet, say, 200 years ago, it was almost a FACT (and maybe still is to Trinitarians). Yet, today, when we are free to question dodgy ideology, we can see that ALMIGHTY GOD could never (and never did) personally come down into his own creation (Call him: ‘Tron’... Ha ha ha)

Hey, I didn’t say the two WERE NOT!!! I ASKED HOW IT WAS KNOWN?

You are claiming that it’s wrong for me to query?

Well, didn’t Scriptures say, ‘TEST THE SPIRIT’?

So... can you tell me how the disciples knew the two were Moses and Elijah (representing The prophets and The Law), after all, the verse says that the ‘Elijah’ spoken of as coming, ‘...WAS JOHN THE BAPTIST’.
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Soapy said:
If my query is ‘not good’ I fancy Your reply is even worse...

How did the disciples KNOW IT WAS MOSES and ELIJAH?

You are ducking the question...!!! I am not....!

It’s a LEGITIMATE question.

We KNOW that claims from Trinitarians that ALMIGHTY GOD: YHWH, was one of the angels seen with Abraham, is COMPLETE NONSENSE.

Yet, say, 200 years ago, it was almost a FACT (and maybe still is to Trinitarians). Yet, today, when we are free to question dodgy ideology, we can see that ALMIGHTY GOD could never (and never did) personally come down into his own creation (Call him: ‘Tron’... Ha ha ha)

Hey, I didn’t say the two WERE NOT!!! I ASKED HOW IT WAS KNOWN?

You are claiming that it’s wrong for me to query?

Well, didn’t Scriptures say, ‘TEST THE SPIRIT’?

So... can you tell me how the disciples knew the two were Moses and Elijah (representing The prophets and The Law), after all, the verse says that the ‘Elijah’ spoken of as coming, ‘...WAS JOHN THE BAPTIST’.
Click to expand...

1) As I mentioned, Jesus knew Nathaniel before he ever saw him. In the spirit, where the physical limitations are not relevant, things are known because the Spirit of God reveals it
2) Jesus didn't correct Peter about who he saw when he mentioned Moses and Elias
3) As Jesus walked down the mountain, what was written about what He said isn't the totality of what He said
4) Jesus said, "9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead." and apparently the did tell Matthew, who wrote it down, after he was risen from the dead.

What reasons do you have that effectively debunks this position?
 
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