What CAN make you believe in the existence of God ?

If you dont have faith in God without (but, not away from) science you can be risking hope because for hope to be effective it must be absolute.

Trailblazer said:

I believe that Baha'u'llah has met His burden of proof quote adequately.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

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He definitely has not.

MonkeyFire said:

If you dont have faith in God without (but, not away from) science you can be risking hope because for hope to be effective it must be absolute.

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No. It doesn't. I only have to have enough hope to allow me to try. Absolutes are unnecessary.

Joe W said:

He definitely has not.

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How do you know that, have you ever looked at that evidence?

Trailblazer said:

How do you know that, have you ever looked at that evidence?

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Yes. After the Universalists, but before Wicca. Though I admit it was many years ago. I recall that I had a mixed reaction to the doctrines, but fundamentally, it was a belief system that expected me to take some guy at his word.

Joe W said:

No. It doesn't. I only have to have enough hope to allow me to try. Absolutes are unnecessary.

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I agree, with need you can require something, and still not have it and that will make you suffer a great deal, and even hopelessness. Happiness is something you have.

MonkeyFire said:

I agree, with need you can require something, and still not have it and that will make you suffer a great deal, and even hopelessness. Happiness is something you have.

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You said, "...because for hope to be effective it must be absolute." I said that was not true. And now you agree that what you said was not true?

There is no "science" to it you just have to be passive and naturally believe. Like fire in the wind.

Joe W said:

You said, "...because for hope to be effective it must be absolute." I said that was not true. And now you agree that what you said was not true?

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Not so, all I am saying is that need is not an absolute.

Joe W said:

but fundamentally, it was a belief system that expected me to take some guy at his word.

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You are not supposed to take Baha'u'llah at His word. He told us to fully investigate in order to ascertain the truth of His claim.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

Trailblazer said:

You are not supposed to take Baha'u'llah at His word. He told us to fully investigate in order to ascertain the truth of His claim.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. ” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

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Yeah. Most religions tell you to investigate in some way. Usually by a methodology that falls well short of the mark. As for instance, I was raised Southern Baptist, and was told to pray until something happens.

Trailblazer said:

He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.

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His words - that would be the '[expectation] that I take some guy at his word' that I mentioned earlier.
His works - I have no direct access to those.
Transforming lives - which is something that we see when people join any supportive community.

Milton Platt said:

If someone makes a claim, then the buren of proof rests with them to demonstrate the truthfulness of the claim. that's just how it works.

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With that I agree.

And it's good that it works that way, otherwise people make all kind of claims. And with this rule, they even might realize that "to believe" <> "to know".

Quite a few of those who don't know, go around claiming they know

When one knows, that something can't be proven to others, even though one knows that it is true, the wise thing to do is "keep silent" IMO.

Milton Platt said:

I hope your health issues have a good resolution. I have some of my own to deal with.

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Thank you, knowing what is wrong, is already half of the solution. And I wish you the strength to deal with yours. Getting older can be tough

Milton Platt said:

That said, the burden of proof is not upon god...it is on those making the claim for a god.

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I couldn't agree more

Joe W said:

Yeah. Most religions tell you to investigate in some way. Usually by a methodology that falls well short of the mark. As for instance, I was raised Southern Baptist, and was told to pray until something happens.

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"pray until something happens" is the polar opposite of independent investigation of truth.
Needless to say, I was not raised as a Christian.

If you want to know what I mean by Independent Investigation of Truth you can watch this short video. It is only five minutes long.

Joe W said:

His words - that would be the '[expectation] that I take some guy at his word' that I mentioned earlier.
His works - I have no direct access to those.
Transforming lives - which is something that we see when people join any supportive community.

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His words -

• That would be what He wrote: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

His works -

• That would be what He did on His Mission. You can read about that in these books:

Transforming lives -

• That would be the religion that He established (followers) all over the world and what they have done and are doing now.

Trailblazer said:

If you want to know what I mean by Independent Investigation of Truth you can watch this short video. It is only five minutes long.

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It all fell apart as soon at it got to the bit where he said he read the bible and came away with the idea that god is all about unconditional love. That in itself is a selective reading of the bible. When I first read all of the bible (as a young teen), I was not only surprised not to find the message of the faith that I'd been brought into by my family, but no coherent message whatsoever. The whole thing is a terrible, disjointed mishmash of contradictory messages. So, if I'm supposed to question everything, why should I arrive at any religious conclusion? Where is the evidence or reasoning to take any of any of the 'holy' books at all seriously?

I find the whole notion of a just, fair, and loving god, with an important message for the well-being of humans to be totally contradicted by the reality that there is no such clear and unambiguous message at all. Just a lot of contradictory faiths that all look exactly like human superstitions.

Trailblazer said:

If you want to know what I mean by Independent Investigation of Truth you can watch this short video. It is only five minutes long.

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Thanks for the recommendation of the short and concise video. I very much appreciate not being asked to read/listen to a rambling manifesto. I listened through a few times and took notes on what I took to be his primary points. Take a look and tell me if I am off base.

Independent Investigation of Truth

• Every aspect of every belief should be examined by each person to make sense that they are true
  
  
  • This allows a person to free themselves of superstitions and beliefs that cannot be supported by facts
    
• A truth is a truth is a truth
  
  
  • There is only one reality
    
    
  • If each person thoroughly examined the truth, we would all come to a consensus
    
    
  • In the end we would only have one religion, that completely agrees with itself
    
• Foundational truth -> God is all about love
  
  
• Investigation begins by admitting that I may hold some beliefs and traditions that are not true.
  
  
  • I may be wrong about a great many things.
    
    
  • There are people out that who I thought were wrong who may actually be right.
    
    
  • There are people whom I thought I would never listen to, that I may be able to learn a great deal from.
    
    
  • Beware of underlying prejudices
    
    
  • Don't be afraid to examine the claims of other religions.
    

ratiocinator said:

It all fell apart as soon at it got to the bit where he said he read the bible and came away with the idea that god is all about unconditional love. That in itself is a selective reading of the bible.

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I fully agree, but he was from a Christian background so of course he has a bias. I was not raised Christian and I was never a Christian, so I don't have the bias that God is all about unconditional love. To me that is illogical; since God is about so many more things, that is an oversimplification. Also, from a psychological standpoint, people want to believe that that God is all about unconditional love, so they don't even look at the evidence for anything that might refute that.

ratiocinator said:

When I first read all of the bible (as a young teen), I was not only surprised not to find the message of the faith that I'd been brought into by my family, but no coherent message whatsoever. The whole thing is a terrible, disjointed mishmash of contradictory messages.

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I agree that the Bible is a terrible, disjointed mishmash of contradictory messages, but of course I am a Baha'i so the only religious scriptures I ever read with serious intent are my own scriptures, and quite frankly I see no need to read older scriptures because I believe that the Baha'i Faith is the religion for this age, and it has everything I will ever need from a religion.

ratiocinator said:

So, if I'm supposed to question everything, why should I arrive at any religious conclusion? Where is the evidence or reasoning to take any of any of the 'holy' books at all seriously?

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I love logic and as I often say, to assume that all Holy Books are like the Bible and that all religions are like Christianity would be the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization and the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions

Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a rushed conclusion without considering all of the variables. In statistics, it may involve basing broad conclusions regarding the statistics of a survey from a small sample group that fails to sufficiently represent an entire population.[3] Its opposite fallacy is called slothful induction, or denying a reasonable conclusion of an inductive argument (e.g. "it was just a coincidence"). Faulty generalization - Wikipedia

Hasty generalization usually shows this pattern:

ratiocinator said:

I find the whole notion of a just, fair, and loving god, with an important message for the well-being of humans to be totally contradicted by the reality that there is no such clear and unambiguous message at all. Just a lot of contradictory faiths that all look exactly like human superstitions.

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How can you know that there is no religion with a clear and unambiguous message, unless you have looked?
That was the whole point of that video, but of course you would have to have some kind of a 'game plan' because you cannot look at every religion in the world since that would take too long.

Joe W said:

Thanks for the recommendation of the short and concise video. I very much appreciate not being asked to read/listen to a rambling manifesto. I listened through a few times and took notes on what I took to be his primary points. Take a look and tell me if I am off base.

Independent Investigation of Truth

• Every aspect of every belief should be examined by each person to make sense that they are true
  • This allows a person to free themselves of superstitions and beliefs that cannot be supported by facts
• A truth is a truth is a truth
  • There is only one reality
    
    
  • If each person thoroughly examined the truth, we would all come to a consensus
    
    
  • In the end we would only have one religion, that completely agrees with itself
• Foundational truth -> God is all about love
  
  
• Investigation begins by admitting that I may hold some beliefs and traditions that are not true.
  • I may be wrong about a great many things.
    
    
  • There are people out that who I thought were wrong who may actually be right.
    
    
  • There are people whom I thought I would never listen to, that I may be able to learn a great deal from.
    
    
  • Beware of underlying prejudices
    
    
  • Don't be afraid to examine the claims of other religions.

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That is a fairly good synopsis, although I think he was a bit overly optimistic when he said:

• If each person thoroughly examined the truth, we would all come to a consensus
  
• In the end we would only have one religion, that completely agrees with itself

I also do not necessarily agree that God is all about love, since God is about may more things such as justice and equity.

A short synopsis of God's injunctions for humanity can be read in The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah.

The reason that the Hidden Words start out with Kindness and Justice if because that is very important human qualities. However, the next few lines are about God's Love for us and what God wants from us.

Some time back I also listened to that video and took notes of the main points, copying down word for word what he said. Here is what I came up with:

• He said that nobody should follow religious beliefs just because it was what their family believes or because it is a long held tradition of a certain religion.
• He said our belief should not be something that we heard from another and have to believe on faith but rather it should be something that has been thoroughly examined and has been found to be solid enough to build a foundation of beliefs from. He said that once a person finds a real solid truth they can be completely confident in that truth.
• He said that truth is a truth is a truth so it cannot be contradicted by another truth.
• He said there reality is only one reality and we just need to discover the truth of this reality.
• He said that we should call into question any of the previously beliefs that we held dear.
• He said that we have to take everything we have been taught and put them into a box and call it the box of unproven beliefs, and then we have to carefully examine that belief to see where it came from -- does it makes sense logically, does it agree with other truths, do I have emotions that are informing this belief, a prejudice or past experience?

Trailblazer said:

That is a fairly good synopsis, although I think he was a bit overly optimistic when he said:

• If each person thoroughly examined the truth, we would all come to a consensus
  
• In the end we would only have one religion, that completely agrees with itself

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I agree about his optimism. He also made some assumptions that are not true:

• That there is a god
• That once one is convinced that they have found the truth that they should feel completely confident in that belief.
• That one religion would be the result of universal consensus on what is factually true.

Trailblazer said:

He said that nobody should follow religious beliefs just because it was what their family believes or because it is a long held tradition of a certain religion.

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I agree.

Trailblazer said:

• He said our belief should not be something that we heard from another and have to believe on faith but rather it should be something that has been thoroughly examined and has been found to be solid enough to build a foundation of beliefs from. He said that once a person finds a real solid truth they can be completely confident in that truth.

• He said that truth is a truth is a truth so it cannot be contradicted by another truth.

• He said there reality is only one reality and we just need to discover the truth of this reality.

• He said that we should call into question any of the previously beliefs that we held dear.

• He said that we have to take everything we have been taught and put them into a box and call it the box of unproven beliefs, and then we have to carefully examine that belief to see where it came from -- does it makes sense logically, does it agree with other truths, do I have emotions that are informing this belief, a prejudice or past experience?

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Sure. Those are fair things to consider, but he is missing the most important component in any investigation. A method by which to reliably determine whether or not the belief that one holds is rationally justified by reason and evidence. I have yet to see such a method applied non-fallaciously by any adherents from any system of belief involving what we colloquially refer to as the supernatural.

The problem with "pray until something happens" is that "something" is always going to happen. And when there are no end criteria, and no falsifiability, the criteria is self-selected by the person praying. They can literally choose anything that they feel meets the criteria of "something". And while some religions do practice a more rigorous application of logic, I have yet to see such an application be applied all the way to any of the given religion's cores.

Trailblazer said:

I love logic and as I often say, to assume that all Holy Books are like the Bible and that all religions are like Christianity would be the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization and the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions...

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It would be if that was why I was making it, however, the real justification was that pretty much every major religion has multiple variants and the other points I made:

Trailblazer said:

How can you know that there is no religion with a clear and unambiguous message, unless you have looked?

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You missed the point. First, why should I assume that any religion has "the truth"? What reason is there to think there is a god at all? Second, even if one faith has an entirely unambiguous (self-consistent) and clear (in that sense) message, it doesn't mean that it is clearly from a god. A just and fair god, with an important message for humans, would make it obvious to all humans (otherwise it would not be just and fair), not have them playing silly games of hide and seek.