The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?

firedragon said:

So cultures and cultural motivations vary geographically as well as trajectory. You are basically proving sociology of religion.

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Yes.

The Anointed said:

“Jesus The Evidence,” by Ian Wilson. P. 144. The Middle Ages, for the Jews at least, began with the advent to power of Constantine the Great. He was the first Roman Emperor to issue laws which radically limited the rights of the Jews as citizens’ of the Roman Empire, a right conferred on them by Caracalla in 212. As Constantine’s church grew in power it influenced the emperors to limit further the civil and political rights of the Jews.

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The Anointed said:

“Jesus The Evidence,” by Ian Wilson. P. 144. The Middle Ages, for the Jews at least, began with the advent to power of Constantine the Great. He was the first Roman Emperor to issue laws which radically limited the rights of the Jews as citizens’ of the Roman Empire, a right conferred on them by Caracalla in 212. As Constantine’s church grew in power it influenced the emperors to limit further the civil and political rights of the Jews.

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Caracalla, whose reign contributed to the decay of the empire, has often been regarded as one of the most bloodthirsty tyrants in Roman history, but he was indeed tolerant of both the Jewish and Christian faiths. His favourite deity was the Egyptian god Serapis, and he adopted the Egyptian practice of identifying the ruler with god. Interestingly enough though, he was venerated by his soldiers, who forced the Senate to deify him after his death, and there is no indication that he was especially disliked among the general population.
As Constantine’s church grew in power it influenced the emperors to limit further the civil and political rights of the Jews.
Constantine, however, supported the separation of the date of Easter from the Jewish Passover (see also Quartodecimanism), stating in his letter after the First Council of Nicaea (which had already decided the matter):

"... it appeared an unworthy thing that in the celebration of this most holy feast we should follow the practice of the Jews, who have impiously defiled their hands with enormous sin, and are, therefore, deservedly afflicted with blindness of soul ... Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd; for we have received from our Saviour a different way."[2] Eusebius, Life of Constantine Vol. III Ch. XVIII Life of Constantine (Book III) (Catholic Encyclopedia)…………. "It was, in the first place, declared improper to follow the custom of the Jews in the celebration of this holy festival, because, their hands having been stained with crime, the minds of these wretched men are necessarily blinded. ... Let us, then, have nothing in common with the Jews, who are our adversaries. ... Let us ... studiously avoiding all contact with that evil way. ... For how can they entertain right views on any point who, after having compassed the death of the Lord, being out of their minds, are guided not by sound reason, but by an unrestrained passion, wherever their innate madness carries them. ... lest your pure minds should appear to share in the customs of a people so utterly depraved. ... Therefore, this irregularity must be corrected, in order that we may no more have any thing in common with those parricides and the murderers of our Lord. Ecclesiastical History by Theodoret. Book 1 Chapter 9……… In 329 A.D.he issued laws prohibiting Jews to own Christian slaves, prohibited mixed marriages and punished by death conversion of Christians to Judaism.[4] Richard Gottheil, Hermann Vogelstein, "Constantine I" The Jewish Encyclopedia

Nowhere does the Bible indicate that early Christians observed either a weekly Sunday or a yearly Easter to commemorate Christ’s resurrection. The night before he died, Christ ordered quite a different celebration. He served his disciples a simple meal of wine and bread and commanded them, “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.”—Luke 22:19…….It was thus Christ’s death, not his resurrection, that Jesus wanted memorialized. Jesus served this meal on the night of the Jewish Passover meal—a yearly celebration of Israel’s deliverance from Egypt. (Matthew 26:19, 20, 26-28) Obviously, Jesus intended to replace the Passover with a yearly serving of this memorial meal. Neither Easter nor any other celebration was commanded by Christ. Fifth-century church historian Socrates said: “The apostles had no thought of appointing festival days, but of promoting a life of blamelessness and piety.”

The Anointed said:

But if times were again difficult for the Jews, for the Christian Gnostics and other fringe groups they were impossible. The books of Arius and his sympathizers were ordered to be burnt, and a reign of terror proclaimed for all those who did not conform with the new official Christian line.

:Understand now by this present statute, Novatians, Valentinians, Marcionites, Paulinians, you who are called Cataphrygians. . . . with what a tissue of lies and vanities, with what destructive and venomous errors, your doctrines are inextricably woven! We give you warning . . . .Let none of you presume, from this time forward, to meet in congregations. To prevent this, we command that you be deprived of all the houses in which you have been accustomed to meet . . . . and that these house should be handed over immediately to the catholic/ i.e. universal church.

Within a generation, hardly leaving a trace of their existence for posterity, the great majority of these groups simply died away as successive Christian emperors reiterated the policies that Constantine had pursued.

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First-century Christianity had no temples, built no altars, used no crucifixes, and sponsored no garbed and betitled ecclesiastics. Early Christians celebrated no state holidays and refused all military service. “A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [who ruled 161-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity, by E. Barnes, 1947, p. 33

Nevertheless, as indicated in The Letters of Pliny, X, XCVI, 3, 5; XCVII, 1., not all who bore the name Christian were uncompromisingly such when put to the test. Just as had been foretold, the spirit of apostasy was already at work before the apostles fell asleep. (Ac 20:29, 30; 2Pe 2:1-3; 1Jo 2:18, 19, 22)

Within a period of less than 300 years, the wheat field of Christianity had been overrun with the weeds of apostate antichrists to the point where wicked Constantine the Great (himself incriminated in the murder of no less than seven close friends and relatives) figured in events that led to the development of a state religion disguised as “Christianity.”

Persecution of Christians by the authorities of the Roman Empire from and after the days of Nero is a matter of secular history.The charges varied, but the objectives always seemed to be the same, namely, the suppression of Christianity.

The Anointed said:

Is it prophesied anywhere in the scriptures, that the Lord would raise up the Roman Church, the head of which church, would claim to be the Shepherd chosen by the Lord to guide his people?

Yes! There is a prophecy of the Lord concerning the raising up of that Shepherd. In Matthew 27: 9-10; we read; “Then what was spoken by (Jeremiah) the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the LORD commanded me."

The words here quoted are not in any copy of Jeremiah extant. But they bear a strong resemblance to the words of Zechariah 11:12-13. And it seems, from a remark of Augustine, that the original copies of Matthew 27: 9-11; in his time named no prophet, but that Matthew 27: 9-19, originally said; “That which was spoken by ‘THE PROPHET’ was fulfilled: "They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the LORD commanded me." Indeed, it is believed that the name (Jeremiah) was erroneously inserted by some much later officious transcriber.

“That which was spoken by ‘THE PROPHET’ was fulfilled: "They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the LORD commanded me." THE PROPHET being Zechariah 11: 12 to 17.

Zechariah 11:12-17 New King James Version (NKJV) Then I said to them, “If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.” So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver..

And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter. 14 Then I cut in two my other staff, Bonds, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

15 And the Lord said to me, “Next, take for yourself the implements of a foolish shepherd. 16 For indeed I will raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for those who are cut off, nor seek the young, nor heal those that are broken, nor feed those that still stand. But he will eat the flesh of the fat and tear their hooves in pieces.

17 “Woe to the worthless shepherd,
Who leaves the flock!
A sword shall be against his arm
And against his right eye;
His arm shall completely wither,
And his right eye shall be totally blinded.”

Oh you shepherd of the darkness, who claim God sent you out
And even though we know that’s true, that fact I wouldn’t flout
For God commanded Zechariah, “Throw my wages ‘cross the floor,
Those thirty bits of silver, for I’ll guide this flock no more
A worthless shepherd now I’ll raise to guide this stubborn flock
And he will be a useless one, of him I’ll take no stock
For he’ll not feed my little ones, nor search for them that’s lost
But he eats the meat of the fattest sheep. And their hooves? He tears them off
That worthless shepherd, he is doomed for abandoning my flock
His power, will I destroy by war, his arm will wither dry, then drop
And his right eye will I turn Blind, that’s why he’s never seen
The passage where I speak of him, Zechariah eleven—twelve to seventeen.

There is but one church, which claims to be the Universal church, the head of which church claims to be the shepherd of Gods people, who was raised up after the Lord, who revealed himself through his obedient earthly host body ‘The Man Jesus.’ was paid the majestic wage of thirty pieces of silver, which was cast to the potter in the house of the Lord.

Catholic Quotes the Pope claiming to be God on earth

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Indeed, and may I add, 2 Thess 2:9-12 “ But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan, with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved……That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them, so that they may come to believe the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in unrighteousness”

Because of the “prevalence of fornication,” the Bible says that “it is better to marry than to be inflamed with passion.” (1 Corinthians 7:2, 9) In spite of this wise advice, many among the clergy are required to remain celibate, that is, unmarried.

“The vow of celibacy is not broken,” explains Nino Lo Bello in his book The Vatican Papers, “if a priest, monk or nun engages in sexual relations. . . . Forgiveness for sexual relations can be obtained by making an honest declaration in the confessional, whereas the marriage of any priest would simply not be recognized by the Church.” Has this teaching produced good or bad fruitage?—Matthew 7:15-19.

No doubt, many priests live morally chaste lives, but a large number do not. According to the 1992 Britannica Book of the Year, “the Roman Catholic Church was reported to have paid out $300 million to settle cases of clergy sexual abuse.” Later, the 1994 edition said: “The death of a number of clergy from AIDS brought visibility to the presence of gay priests and observations that there were an inordinate number of . . . gays drawn to the priesthood.”

No wonder the Bible states that “forbidding to marry ” is a ‘teaching of demons.’ (1 Timothy 4:1-3) “In the view of some historians,” writes Peter de Rosa in his book Vicars of Christ, “[priestly celibacy] has probably done more harm to morals than any other institution in the West, including prostitution. . . . [It] has been more often than not a stain on the name of Christianity. . . . Enforced celibacy has always led to hypocrisy in the ranks of the clergy. . . . A priest can fall a thousand times but he is forbidden by canon law to marry once.”

Considering God’s view of Baal worship, it is not difficult to discern how he must view the divided churches of Christendom. The last book of the Bible combines all forms of false worship under the name “Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.” “In her,” the Bible adds, “was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”—Revelation 17:5; 18:24.

Hence, God urges all who want to be his true worshipers: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. . . . In one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.”—Revelation 18:4, 8.

cataway said:

“new Israel,” hello

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Yes. I know. That's appropriation.

Misty Woods said:

Within a period of less than 300 years, the wheat field of Christianity had been overrun with the weeds of apostate antichrists to the point where wicked Constantine the Great (himself incriminated in the murder of no less than seven close friends and relatives) figured in events that led to the development of a state religion disguised as “Christianity.”

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You'll have to prove this. I don't believe there's an unbiased history anywhere that speaks about "the wheat field of Xy being overrun with weeds of apostate antichrists."

Misty Woods said:

Nowhere does the Bible indicate that early Christians observed either a weekly Sunday or a yearly Easter to commemorate Christ’s resurrection. The night before he died, Christ ordered quite a different celebration. He served his disciples a simple meal of wine and bread and commanded them, “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.”

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Acts 20 says that disciples met on the first day of the week to break bread. They would have had no reason to meet together to break bread on the first day of the week; they were Jews. The term "break bread" refers to the bread of the Eucharist, or meal of thanks, alluding to the one loaf Jesus broke. That the "breaking of bread" took place on the first day of the week is significant, because it alludes to the day Jesus was resurrected: the first day of the week.

You obviously don't know about the history of the Eucharist. If we look to all biblical accounts of the Lord's Supper, and put the disparate statements together, and take into account what was happening in the culture, we find that the Eucharist is derived directly from the Roman symposium, or private dinner party. It was far more than a "simple meal of bread and wine." There would have been different courses (including bread), a program of "entertainment," a carefully planned seating order, and a specific number of guests. During the symposium, the host offered a libation -- a toast with wine. Indeed, during the meal, Jesus offered a "speech" that is "reproduced" in the Gospels, as the "entertainment."

Additionally, the Greek term translated as "remembrance" doesn't mean simply a "recalling to mind of a past event." The Greek word is anamnesis. It more closely means 'to pull a past event into the present." In the act of anamnesis, we pull that "last supper" into our present, and we join with the 12 and with Jesus in the symposium.

Misty Woods said:

First-century Christianity had no temples, built no altars, used no crucifixes, and sponsored no garbed and betitled ecclesiastics.

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Christianity has no temples, because a temple is a place where sacrifice is made. There is no continuing sacrifice in Christianity, because Christ was sacrificed "once for all," and that sacrifice endures. so the point about temples is completely moot. They don't exist because they're theologically unnecessary. But they did have altars, and such is referred to in 1 Corinthians as the "table of the Lord," specially distinguished from other kinds of tables.

While it is true that clergy were, perhaps, not "specially garbed," it is untrue that they did not have titles, and were not set apart for their ministries from the laity. The Bible speaks of episkopoi (elders, or bishops), who were overseers. They were the ones in charge (very early on) of a specific church -- later in charge of all churches in a specific area. The Bible speaks also of diakonoi (deacons), whose specific job it was to A) serve at the Eucharistic meal and B) to carry the bread from that celebration to all those, who by reason of illness or infirmity, could not be present. The Bible also speaks of presbyteros (priests) who led specific congregations when the episkopos was not present. These offices are well known in the Bible. We even have names of people who were called to such offices. They were set apart ministries with specific duties.

Misty Woods said:

No wonder the Bible states that “forbidding to marry ” is a ‘teaching of demons.’ (1 Timothy 4:1-3) “In the view of some historians,” writes Peter de Rosa in his book Vicars of Christ, “[priestly celibacy] has probably done more harm to morals than any other institution in the West, including prostitution. . . . [It] has been more often than not a stain on the name of Christianity. . . . Enforced celibacy has always led to hypocrisy in the ranks of the clergy. . . . A priest can fall a thousand times but he is forbidden by canon law to marry once.”

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The Anglican Communion and Orthodox allow their presbyterate and diaconate to wed. The Anglican Communion allow their bishopric to wed.

sojourner said:

Jesus also said something about “rendering unto Caesar...”

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In context.....what did Jesus actually say....?

Matthew 22:15-22...
"15 Then the Pharisees went and conspired together in order to trap him in his speech. 16 So they sent their disciples to him, together with party followers of Herod, saying: “Teacher, we know you are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and you do not seek anyone’s favor, for you do not look at the outward appearance of people. 17 Tell us, then, what do you think? Is it lawful to pay head tax to Caesar or not?” 18 But Jesus, knowing their wickedness, said: “Why do you put me to the test, hypocrites? 19 Show me the tax coin.” They brought him a de·narʹi·us. 20 He said to them: “Whose image and inscription is this?” 21 They said: “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them: “Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” 22 When they heard that, they were amazed, and they left him and went away."

The more important part of Jesus' statement was to pay "God's things to God".....that meant not compromising our service to God by paying God's things to Caesar. Which means that you missed the point of that scripture entirely....

This is akin to presenting John 3:16 and stressing the first part whilst ignoring the equally important second part.....

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."

Concentrating on God's love for mankind, is great....but it does not negate what he will do to those who do not demonstrate their faith in line with Christ's teachings.
Matthew 7:21-23 is proof that the "many" are in line for a rebuke that they are clearly not expecting.

Your responses often make me question not only your scriptural knowledge, but your comprehension of it.....and this is what you teach others?

I believe that Jesus will let us all know soon enough who belong to him and who don't.....till then, we are all free to believe as we wish.

Deeje said:

The more important part of Jesus' statement was to pay "God's things to God".....that meant not compromising our service to God by paying God's things to Caesar. Which means that you missed the point of that scripture entirely....

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No. I didn’t. You’re missing the cultural context. There was huge public outcry over paying what they called the “slavery tax.” The religious authorities were sure Jesus would stand firmly against paying the tax, and they planned o turn him over to the governor. In fact, when brought before Pilate, they accused him of that very thing. Not only have you missed the gist of the passage, you’ve actually managed to come down on the side of the hypocrites here.

Deeje said:

Concentrating on God's love for mankind, is great....but it does not negate what he will do to those who do not demonstrate their faith in line with Christ's teachings.
Matthew 7:21-23 is proof that the "many" are in line for a rebuke that they are clearly not expecting

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No. Jesus continuously prioritized the tending others above strict law-keeping.

Deeje said:

Your responses often make me question not only your scriptural knowledge, but your comprehension of it.....and this is what you teach others?

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I’m not surprised. Not-doctors often misdiagnose medical conditions, not-lawyers misargue legal cases, and not-mechanics screw up car repairs all the time. That you question my professional opinions is a testimony to the lack of your posts to present cogent arguments in many cases.

Deeje said:

I believe that Jesus will let us all know soon enough who belong to him and who don't

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you can believe what you wish, but Jesus is not about dividing the human family.

How does this resolve your conundrum of undeserved grace being imparted only to the deserving? You just keep digging the grave deeper.

sojourner said:

No. I didn’t. You’re missing the cultural context. There was huge public outcry over paying what they called the “slavery tax.” The religious authorities were sure Jesus would stand firmly against paying the tax, and they planned o turn him over to the governor. In fact, when brought before Pilate, they accused him of that very thing. Not only have you missed the gist of the passage, you’ve actually managed to come down on the side of the hypocrites here.

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Nice attempt at justification....but the "cultural context" in no way negates Jesus' words....we are to pay "God's things to God", which means that if we are told to be "no part of the world" we do so in imitation of Christ who did not involve himself in the politics of Rome at any time, but he did point out the shortcomings of the religious leaders telling them that their teachings were like 'leaven'.

He said..."Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves". (Matthew 23:13-15)

Teachers carry a heavier responsibility. Apparently God hates hypocrites.

Jesus stayed completely neutral as did his disciples. Whilst the zealots plotted an armed overthrow, Jesus led his disciples in a more important work....the preaching of the Kingdom. (Matthew 24:14)

sojourner said:

Jesus continuously prioritized the tending others above strict law-keeping.

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Yes, but as a Jew, he kept the law very strictly....he just did not nit-pick it and add to it like the Pharisees did. Instead he led by example, leading the "lost sheep" out of a contaminated pen and into a clean one. But something was required of those who were in that new pen.
John 14:21..."Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. In turn, whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will clearly show myself to him.”
To love Christ is to obey his teachings....all of them....not just the convenient ones....not just the easy ones.

sojourner said:

I’m not surprised. Not-doctors often misdiagnose medical conditions, not-lawyers misargue legal cases, and not-mechanics screw up car repairs all the time. That you question my professional opinions is a testimony to the lack of your posts to present cogent arguments in many cases.

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I'll just leave that statement to stand alone because I believe it says more than I ever could....

sojourner said:

you can believe what you wish, but Jesus is not about dividing the human family.

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Matthew 10:34-39....
"Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his soul will lose it, and whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it."

Jesus is very much about division....in households...in communities and in the world.....after all he is the one who separates the "sheep from the goats"....and he commands the separation of the "wheat from the weeds"......that parable is all about the division of fake Christians from the real ones. Again, you appear to know little about Christ's teachings except the bits that agree with your view. Sorry but it looks like your credentials are slipping.

sojourner said:

How does this resolve your conundrum of undeserved grace being imparted only to the deserving? You just keep digging the grave deeper.

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What conundrum? The scriptures are not ambiguous....if there are 'wheat and weeds' and Jesus says to the fake Christians at the judgment that he "never knew" them.....you have the conundrum....not me. 'Christian is as Christian does' IMV.

Undeserved kindness is imparted to those who obey Christ's teachings....they cannot earn it no matter how well they apply those teachings.....but the scriptures are clear....you can lose your salvation because of failing to "do the will of the Father". You see, its not what we think of ourselves...its what our judge thinks of us that matters....we will all stand before the same Jesus Christ.

Someone is digging a grave.......and I see you have a big shovel...what am I to think?

Deeje said:

Nice attempt at justification....but the "cultural context" in no way negates Jesus' words....we are to pay "God's things to God", which means that if we are told to be "no part of the world" we do so in imitation of Christ who did not involve himself in the politics of Rome at any time, but he did point out the shortcomings of the religious leaders telling them that their teachings were like 'leaven'.

He said..."Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves". (Matthew 23:13-15)

Teachers carry a heavier responsibility. Apparently God hates hypocrites.

Jesus stayed completely neutral as did his disciples. Whilst the zealots plotted an armed overthrow, Jesus led his disciples in a more important work....the preaching of the Kingdom. (Matthew 24:14)



Yes, but as a Jew, he kept the law very strictly....he just did not nit-pick it and add to it like the Pharisees did. Instead he led by example, leading the "lost sheep" out of a contaminated pen and into a clean one. But something was required of those who were in that new pen.
John 14:21..."Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. In turn, whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will clearly show myself to him.”
To love Christ is to obey his teachings....all of them....not just the convenient ones....not just the easy ones.



I'll just leave that statement to stand alone because I believe it says more than I ever could....

Matthew 10:34-39....
"Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his soul will lose it, and whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it."

Jesus is very much about division....in households...in communities and in the world.....after all he is the one who separates the "sheep from the goats"....and he commands the separation of the "wheat from the weeds"......that parable is all about the division of fake Christians from the real ones. Again, you appear to know little about Christ's teachings except the bits that agree with your view. Sorry but it looks like your credentials are slipping.

What conundrum? The scriptures are not ambiguous....if there are 'wheat and weeds' and Jesus says to the fake Christians at the judgment that he "never knew" them.....you have the conundrum....not me. 'Christian is as Christian does' IMV.

Undeserved kindness is imparted to those who obey Christ's teachings....they cannot earn it no matter how well they apply those teachings.....but the scriptures are clear....you can lose your salvation because of failing to "do the will of the Father". You see, its not what we think of ourselves...its what our judge thinks of us that matters....we will all stand before the same Jesus Christ.

Someone is digging a grave.......and I see you have a big shovel...what am I to think?

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Aaaaand... round and round we go. If you want to continue with what I believe to be a terrible theology, that’s your business. I think it’s very sad that you insist on dividing the Christian household, and I’m just as sure that you feel completely justified in doing that. In my professional opinion (which I realize means absolutely nothing to you), I find a great deal of justification in your posts, bolstered by a wholly inadequate base of interpretation arrived at through undisciplined exegesis of the texts. I see a lot of eisegesis and proof-texting in your posts. I think that’s sad, because I believe it shows an unwillingness to face facts, both historical and theological.

you and I are never going to agree, because we approach the issue from completely different perspectives of what is necessary to the interpretive process. I just think it’s really destructive to condemn everyone who happens to disagree with you. I find that condemnation wholly unjustifiable and untruthful.

Misty Woods said:

Indeed, and may I add, 2 Thess 2:9-12 “ But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan, with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved……That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them, so that they may come to believe the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in unrighteousness”

Because of the “prevalence of fornication,” the Bible says that “it is better to marry than to be inflamed with passion.” (1 Corinthians 7:2, 9) In spite of this wise advice, many among the clergy are required to remain celibate, that is, unmarried.

“The vow of celibacy is not broken,” explains Nino Lo Bello in his book The Vatican Papers, “if a priest, monk or nun engages in sexual relations. . . . Forgiveness for sexual relations can be obtained by making an honest declaration in the confessional, whereas the marriage of any priest would simply not be recognized by the Church.” Has this teaching produced good or bad fruitage?—Matthew 7:15-19.

No doubt, many priests live morally chaste lives, but a large number do not. According to the 1992 Britannica Book of the Year, “the Roman Catholic Church was reported to have paid out $300 million to settle cases of clergy sexual abuse.” Later, the 1994 edition said: “The death of a number of clergy from AIDS brought visibility to the presence of gay priests and observations that there were an inordinate number of . . . gays drawn to the priesthood.”

No wonder the Bible states that “forbidding to marry ” is a ‘teaching of demons.’ (1 Timothy 4:1-3) “In the view of some historians,” writes Peter de Rosa in his book Vicars of Christ, “[priestly celibacy] has probably done more harm to morals than any other institution in the West, including prostitution. . . . [It] has been more often than not a stain on the name of Christianity. . . . Enforced celibacy has always led to hypocrisy in the ranks of the clergy. . . . A priest can fall a thousand times but he is forbidden by canon law to marry once.”

Considering God’s view of Baal worship, it is not difficult to discern how he must view the divided churches of Christendom. The last book of the Bible combines all forms of false worship under the name “Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.” “In her,” the Bible adds, “was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”—Revelation 17:5; 18:24.

Hence, God urges all who want to be his true worshipers: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. . . . In one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.”—Revelation 18:4, 8.

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First of all, marriage to God is that a Holy Mother and a Holy Father, natural human x pairs exist. For it states that God owned the pairing of natural life.

Only one condition changed on Earth and it was via technology of the sciences that involve UFO mass radiation and nuclear energy. Being Temple and Pyramid sciences, when Churches never even existed. Temples on the mount AIN and also ground Temples with the pyramid was the used technology.

That technology formed multi ANTI signals in the UFO mass radiation dispersion until the spatial vacuum, opened and removed the UFO. The cosmos cooling function.

Machinery/invention therefore forced held the UFO longer by intention of utilising its signals, radio wave/science radiation transmitters. For science knows that radiation is a force that attacks and converts the stone mass upon which we all stand/walk.

Therefore the natural marriage of x 2 pairing changed. How behaviour in life changed, for even Jehovah Witnesses have humans who confess to being homosexual and get rejected in the community.

A human not a Priest dies from AIDS....do you also condemn them as a human for that cruel death? And then the sexual condition is inferred to reasoning of its presence, when the sexual condition is either a human being male by body type or a human being female by body type. And both can gain AIDS...sex meaning what sexual body you own by human condition.

As animals in Nature also gained AIDS, anyone claiming that such a cruel attack on life is due to sex is wrong. It was inherited in the same reasoning that change to the human behaviours was forced upon us.

We are all born as innocent babies and even the bible says, the day that this circumstance becomes brought before the LAW, then the children who are cruelly dealt with, from little babies who inherit the life form/mind condition and physicality will all be proven innocent.

Pity you cannot personally own that spiritual reality in your group coercive reasoning, which is just a human group agreement by their choices.

What does Jesus say about having children? | NeverThirsty.

When the bible is a contradictive statement for God was not Holy or spiritual to destroy holy life, little babies innocent children, who also just happen to be adults.

The Bible is a lesson about what occurs to life living on God the Earth when you alter its spirits, in science/creation it is the gases that belong to the presence of physical stone. Which science transmutated in the past and removed from form and also where it naturally existed in Earth pressures.....the gold. It was their trade in the past and they understood how to transmute it by moving its timed/pressure variable.

If you care to use common sense and not ignore natural life as being forcibly changed by the conditions of the OCCULT being science.

As science is a multi world national and multi cultural choice, and denominational agreement by multi humans, then not one of you own any condition to condemn humanity who already lived condemned in natural life due to science (occult) having changed the physical mass of a natural God history O the ST ONE...st meaning AIN the SAINT body of 0. Held fusion or SION.

Therefore in fact if anyone is going to represent a human argument it is to question the reality occult before you make any claim against any victim of science. In human reality we have suffered enough bigotry.

Deeje said:

I thought you might be interested in this.....

"The day of Preparation: A name applied to the day preceding the weekly Sabbath, during which the Jews prepared for the Sabbath. (See study note on Mr 15:42.) John’s Gospel includes the words of the Passover. The time period referred to in this context is the morning of Nisan 14, the day of Jesus’ trial and death. The Passover day had begun the evening before, and as shown in the other Gospel accounts, Jesus and the apostles had eaten the Passover meal that night. (Mt 26:18-20; Mr 14:14-17; Lu 22:15) Christ perfectly carried out the regulations of the Law, including the requirement to celebrate the Passover on Nisan 14. (Ex 12:6; Le 23:5) This day in the year 33 C.E. could be viewed as the Preparation of the Passover in the sense that it was the preparation for the seven-day Festival of Unleavened Bread that was to begin the next day. Because these days were close in the calendar, the entire festival was sometimes referred to by the term “Passover.” (Lu 22:1) The day after Nisan 14 was always a sabbath, regardless of the day of the week on which it fell. (Le 23:5-7) In 33 C.E., Nisan 15 fell on the regular Sabbath, making the day “a great,” or double, Sabbath.—See study note on Joh 19:31.

The day of Preparation: The day preceding the weekly Sabbath. During this day, the Jews got ready for the Sabbath by preparing extra meals and by finishing any work that could not wait until after the Sabbath. In the case mentioned here, the day of Preparation fell on Nisan 14. (Mr 15:42; see Glossary, “Preparation.”) According to the Mosaic Law, dead bodies “should not remain all night on the stake” but, rather, should be buried “on that day.”—De 21:22, 23; compare Jos 8:29; 10:26, 27.

That Sabbath day was a great one: Nisan 15, the day after Passover, was always a sabbath, regardless of the day of the week on which it fell. (Le 23:5-7) When this special Sabbath coincided with the regular Sabbath (the seventh day of the Jewish week, which runs from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday), it was “a great” Sabbath. Such a sabbath followed the day of Jesus’ death, which was on a Friday. From 31 to 33 C.E., the only year in which Nisan 14 fell on a Friday was the year 33 C.E. This fact leads to the conclusion that Jesus died on Nisan 14, 33 C.E.

To have the legs broken: In Latin, this practice was called crurifragium. A brutal form of punishment, it was likely done in this case to hasten the death of those executed on stakes. A person hanging on a stake had difficulty breathing. With his legs broken, he would not be able to raise his body and relieve the pressure on his lungs, so he would suffocate."

Excerpts from https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1001070687?q=nisan+14&p=par

The Jewish 'day' began and ended at sundown. Which means that the 'day' Jesus celebrated the Passover was Nisan 14, which began at sundown, so it was the same "day" on which he died. The day of the week does not matter...its the date that Jesus asked his apostle to "remember". (Luke 22:19)

The anniversary of the Passover was always celebrated on Nisan 14 and was replaced by the Lord's supper for Christians because Jesus was the symbolic 'Passover Lamb'.....and since there is no command to celebrate his resurrection, only to commemorate his death which is, after all what paid for the sins of mankind, there is no "Easter" as the churches celebrate it. In fact "Easter" is nowhere to be found in the Bible.....it was an adopted pagan festival dedicated to the goddess of fertility whose emblems were rabbits and eggs.....her name was pronounced "Easter". So we will not touch that because we feel it is in breach of Paul's counsel at 2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

So the day of the week doesn't really matter....waiting for a Friday or any particular day of the week is not what the Jews did...they celebrated their festivals and their Passover according to the date. The Passover was an annual commemoration....so the Lord's Supper is also an annual event on the prescribed date.

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Deeje thank you for your post...(I am a little late in replying): I think the Passover fell on the sabbath a Saturday thus it was double special! I must add... Jesus is called "The Lamb of God" Jesus the lamb was sacrificed at this Passover.
John 1:36 When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, “Look, the Lamb of God!”
Acts 8:32 This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading: “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
1 Cor 5:7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

Deeje You pointed out (above) they did not break the legs of Jesus.. All Passover lambs must be unblemished! The Passover lamb of God was slaughtered 2000 years ago now what we have to do is "Eat the Lamb"! Just as Moses did at the first Passover in Egypt.. eat the sacrifice to be saved!

Jesus life sacrificed already returned as prophesised, why EBOLA was inherited as the blood/cell removal from its natural innocent holy body.

Radiation as a condition is what "eats" the flesh in reality. Extra radiation in spirit gas burning fall out conditions. 12 being natural gas cooled light as an explanation of why the spirit was attacked and changed.

If humanity used common sense who would want the reference about Jesus, the sacrifice of life returned in a future?

It was stated to be a one of, occult caused event? Yet it was known that it would return and owned stated scientific reasoning for its return.

Due to the knowledge occult wisdom who says and they never broke the legs of Jesus as if it is just Data.

But brother, you were taught you follow Jesus, so I would not pretend in my life/self that I am safe.

As the UFO and spatial vacuum event was known, the opening of which stopped life being destroyed on Planet Earth when the sky went dark. It did not however stop the presence occult and UFO body.

Science knew.

Science in the past came to a mutual brotherhood agreement that stated, future prophecies of life attack would prove that it was real. And those mathematical predictions, life attacked did come true. Plagues plus natural disasters the reasons, activated in spatial vacuum/space irradiated causes.

Hence they stopped nuclear technology, by being proven wrong about creation.

They also prophecised that the Jesus sacrifice of life would return in the future as proof that what occurred in the past to the planet and humans REAL.

And it was proven real, changes to the holy life blood and also cell tissue, sacrificed.

2012 was stated to be when space in the vacuum was meant to prevent the incoming UFO event, the sacrifice of the occult on natural life, its return. Black holes that theme...where space had been heated up by science O cause, maths predictions.

New Ebola Outbreak In Congo Creates Unparalleled Challenges During A Pandemic

In 1976 fell in Jilin, the big meteorite, why shocked the whole world? Most people do not know
1976 ebola outbreak, asteroid/stone break up in space due to UFO heating of space, the abomination story as taught.

Tallest Mountains In The Democratic Republic Of The Congo (Kinshasa)


History of the wisdom of the occult/UFO and its mass conversion interactive conditions was with the removal of the mountain peak ^. Science mind stated in a reason involved a flooded Earth natural origin was the saving from the attack, where O Earth as a planet or a God body in maths claims O did not blow up like other planets core attacked had, is the teaching. Earth planetary history and scientific relativity.

^ mountain peaks in origin history were above the water line and got removed to a flat top mountain, as the mountain mass was below the water. Origin of water not salted. Why the reaction stopped due to the flooded Earth.

Science said that human DNA history and natural parentage origin is aligned to life existing in the African continent. Yet original DNA was being lived everywhere on Earth historically and it is the UFO condition that changed life/health and DNA on Earth.

Where radiation spatial mass interacted in a planetary cause originally, why DNA changed in the African continent. And their skin is proof that it had to adapt to a higher radiation condition.

Humanity should therefore reason that all evidence of why life is being attacked and the history of science involving the occult, the UFO is real. Evidence in the experience is all we ever had as ownership against scientific male enforced group choices. Seeing all human information is first reasoned in stories first and not as science status itself.

Why science is wrong.

The evidence is why the bio chemical and blood is constantly changing.

Natural history which is not in any science control.

Terry Sampson said:

They do indeed. So, let me tell you a little history:

• I am a Sampson by adoption. Mayfield was my bio-mother's husband's surname. My name, during my first 3 months, was John Sterling Mayfield. From 3 months of age until just before my 12th birthday, my name was Terry Lee Montgomery; Since the age of 12, I have been Terry Montgomery Sampson.
• Of the nine most important people in my life, i.e. the people who loved me most, eight are dead; my wife remains with me. Of the eight, all believed in the Trinity and trusted in Jesus' promises, and none of the nine were/are biologically related to me.
• My biological parents were married, ... but not to each other. Unable to satisfy my infant needs, my bio-mom took me to my bio-father's house when I was 3 months old, and said: "I can't take care of him; you take him"; and walked out. That was the first time my stepmother and I met, ... the day that she discovered that my bio-father had been unfaithful. She was a 61-year old, Deaf woman and had been Deaf since birth or infancy, and had probably the equivalent of a 3rd or 4th grade Deaf School education. She rescued me and changed the course that my life would have taken in a profound way. In fact, if it weren't for her, and a handful of others like her, I literally wouldn't be Terry Sampson, married, blessed, and living in Los Angeles today. I'd be John Sterling Mayfield, most likely miserable, alcoholic, dead and buried in Oklahoma. How did that happen? The Jesus she read about in the Scripture was sufficient for her. She took me in and raised me until just before my 12th birthday. [My parents and step-parents were Deaf. My first language was American Sign Language.]
• Around my 11th birthday, Oklahoma State Department of Social Services took an interest in me and concerns were raised over the fitness of an elderly deaf woman to be a young, hearing boy's guardian. As time went on, the State authorities decided that for my good, I should be removed from the home and placed with a foster family consisting of hearing people who could support my development in spoken English. My stepmother, fearing that I would be placed in a non-Christian home, went to her pastor and told him that she wanted him to take me.
• The Lutheran pastor and his wife took me in, with my consent. The Sampsons had five biological kids (three sons and two daughters), ranging from 5 to 12. I'm the only one they adopted.
• All of the people important to me are important because they did things and made sacrifices for me personally that I did not ask for but which saved me from a worse fate. In summary, I have been the beneficiary from the age of 3 months of people who were not perfect but who did extraordinary things because they believed what they believed. Of those people, only the preacher and one other person had a college-level education.

Required? Is that your reason for everything you do? That Jesus "requires" you to do it? You strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.

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Interesting history. I’m glad for you...at least after your first 3 months!

You know, I wasn’t really talking about individuals, per se. Rather, it has more to do with the religious institutions that they are in!

We love people...if we didn’t, we wouldn’t sacrifice our time and money driving to areas, knocking on doors, knowing that many times, we’ll get them slammed in our faces.

Letter-writing & telephoning (which due to Covid-19 are our current methods of witnessing) are safer ways — and cheaper. Just not as effective. Although we are now experiencing some good results worldwide, with these methods.

We just ask (and pray) that people will examine the religious organizations that they are a part of...how well these entities strive in upholding Christ’s directives.



Take care, my cousin.

sojourner said:

you and I are never going to agree, because we approach the issue from completely different perspectives of what is necessary to the interpretive process. I just think it’s really destructive to condemn everyone who happens to disagree with you. I find that condemnation wholly unjustifiable and untruthful.

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The truth is the truth Sojourner.....and neither you or I can alter it. We will soon see who is serving the true God by "doing the will of the Father" and who is not. We will all stand before the same judge.

In the meantime Jehovah's Witnesses will continue to preach about God's Kingdom as the only hope for the world, (Matthew 24:14) not condemning people, but continuing to condemn God-dishonoring doctrines as Jesus did (Matthew 15:7-9).....offering them the honest truth, which they are free to reject as lies, even as they did in Jesus' day. There is nothing new in satan's world. He will continue to misrepresent Jehovah and his servants and to present lies as truth....as he has always done. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

As Paul said of those who were subverting the truth back in his day, at 2 Timothy 2:19....
"....the solid foundation of God remains standing, having this seal, “Jehovah knows those who belong to him,” and, “Let everyone calling on the name of Jehovah renounce unrighteousness." (Numbers 16:5; Isaiah 26:13: Joel 2:32)

We will let the judge do his work.....

Dogknox20 said:

Deeje thank you for your post...(I am a little late in replying): I think the Passover fell on the sabbath a Saturday thus it was double special! I must add... Jesus is called "The Lamb of God" Jesus the lamb was sacrificed at this Passover.
John 1:36 When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, “Look, the Lamb of God!”
Acts 8:32 This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading: “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
1 Cor 5:7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

Deeje You pointed out (above) they did not break the legs of Jesus.. All Passover lambs must be unblemished! The Passover lamb of God was slaughtered 2000 years ago now what we have to do is "Eat the Lamb"! Just as Moses did at the first Passover in Egypt.. eat the sacrifice to be saved!

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It was the blood of the Passover Lamb on the doorposts that saved the Jews in Egypt, not just the eating of the Passover meal.

The celebration of the Passover was for Jews only. (John 6:4) They alone prepared and ate the Passover meal to remind them of their deliverance from Egypt. (Exodus 12:26-27)

Christ symbolized the Passover Lamb but he did not promote the Passover for Christians. All he did in instituting the new covenant was to use the bread and the wine to symbolize his body and his shed blood.
There was never a hint that his disciples were to partake of such things in a physical sense because eating human flesh is cannibalism, and drinking blood was against God's law. It would have been a completely repugnant idea to Jews....as it should be completely repugnant to Christians.

When issues arose in the first Christian congregations, especially when Gentiles began to be added, circumcision came up as a point of dispute because the Jews were trying to force the Gentiles to become circumcised. What did the elders in Jerusalem do to settle the dispute? They went to the scriptures and prayed for the direction of God's spirit....the result?

Acts 15:28-29....
"The holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep yourselves free from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

The "necessary things" did not include circumcision, Sabbath observance, or celebrating the Passover....

If you gave yourself a title, such as the group who followed Jesus teachings, as he was being life attacked, sacrificed in stigmata states, the same as ebola victims, a changed sacrificed have, then phenomena and early age death and life in attack is an occult cause.

For it is stated to be involved in overcoming Satanic attack, as taught.

So Christians said that they took this title group name, as a group. Groups form for human reasoning as supportive conditions in the group and its teaching.

So the Jehovah Witness would also claim that they personally owned witness to a changing spiritual human life, their behaviours, their health, their mentality and their inhumanity, in radiation changes that affect brain chemicals....to the reason for the hearing of voice.

Machines, machine technologies, radiation/radio waves, AI the effect, and AI is a statement involving p AI n and suffering itself....the reason to hear voice unnaturally.

So as you get life sacrificed, gas burnt irradiated as in science they claim beginning.

Beginning in another science statement said there never was any beginning or end in creation. Science for a machine and a formula places a beginning and also place an end, if you care to apply human reasoning today.

You all were fighting and arguing for the same cause, human health, human rights, the spiritual life. Family support, community family support and the natural life to be returned to us all.

And you were once fighting in groups who agreed to support the group by implication of your personal belief. The same as it is today.

Now if you ask science, that says biological science, real science about self, Genetics, humans own human Genetics, as humans. Genetics for humans do not exist anywhere else. We live owning what we live owning.

Human babies are owned by the act of sex.

Yet the bible does not own speaking about natural life and natural sex. It is an occult document that does not own speaking or reasoning for everyday and natural human life. It was a contradictive argument which is science.

When we have sex as humans, science of the occult cannot use our sexual act or life continuance, human, owners of a future by our baby to adult growth, then they lied and still lie today. For you would realise occultists do not claim that a human being life began with human male sperm and human female ovary.

They talk about volcanic mass with RNA similar to ours...yet it exists today where it existed before in the same place where it exists. That is named coercive lying.

I was gas irradiated burnt and saw volcanic flowing feed back when I thought I would nearly die. That form of phenomena occult science caused attack happened to our spiritual brother in his past. And none of you in modern times is truly supporting the reason why that documentation was written and you argue falsely in reality.

Deeje said:

The truth is the truth Sojourner.....and neither you or I can alter it. We will soon see who is serving the true God by "doing the will of the Father" and who is not. We will all stand before the same judge.

In the meantime Jehovah's Witnesses will continue to preach about God's Kingdom as the only hope for the world, (Matthew 24:14) not condemning people, but continuing to condemn God-dishonoring doctrines as Jesus did (Matthew 15:7-9).....offering them the honest truth, which they are free to reject as lies, even as they did in Jesus' day. There is nothing new in satan's world. He will continue to misrepresent Jehovah and his servants and to present lies as truth....as he has always done. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

As Paul said of those who were subverting the truth back in his day, at 2 Timothy 2:19....
"....the solid foundation of God remains standing, having this seal, “Jehovah knows those who belong to him,” and, “Let everyone calling on the name of Jehovah renounce unrighteousness." (Numbers 16:5; Isaiah 26:13: Joel 2:32)

We will let the judge do his work.....

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“Satan’s world.” How very sad that you can’t see God’s marvelous hand in God’s work.