Piculet
Active Member
Do explain.
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Hypocrites (non-Muslims defending Islam)
- Thread starter Piculet
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firedragon
Veteran Member
Totally agree. Criticism is a science. In both religions Christianity and Islam, criticism has been part of the system since the beginning. Of course there were times when the church leaders or/and that particular ulama had restricted criticism for some kind of personal and institutional gain, but over all, criticism was always there.
The problem remains in the understanding of criticism. Since the topic is Islam, lets take it for example. Long long ago, somewhere around a 100 years after the prophet Muhammed died people developed all kinds of sciences in ahadith analysis. Usul ul fikh, ilm al hadith are all very serious criticisms. Every single methodology is a science of criticism.
But this word "Criticism" is generally understood by many as saying bad things about something. Even in this forum I have noticed that a thread called criticism of the Quran is understood as finding faults with the Quran. Its a serious misconception. In biblical studies we have many many forms of criticism. Redaction criticism, form criticism, narrative criticism, etc etc etc. They are all taught in university as part of curriculum, not some random "slam the religion" kind of bogus criticism.
Thats the problem.
firedragon
Veteran Member
The problem with you is that you have intentionally cherry picked or fed yourself off someone who intentionally cherry picked.
When doing this kind of thing, at least have the eyes and the brains to read one verse at least prior and following. I believe that's a little bit of maturity. Yet of course, there are websites that intentionally stay infantile.
- And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not aggress, God does not love the aggressors. 2:190
- And kill them wherever you encounter them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Sacred Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the rejecters. 2:191
- And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful. 2:192
- And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is for God. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked. 2:190
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die.(Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, ‘Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.’ (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
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firedragon
Veteran Member
Can you give an exact and precise example how this is possible please? I would like to understand better.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Well, if you look at criticism even more broadly is a form of doubt, testing, checking and what not. And sometimes you come up with a negative result. But that is not a problem, if you accept a negative as valid result. In some sense we end here:
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
It comes in many variants and can be found in science and philosophy.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Criticism will bring positive things every single time. This is how scholars think. They dont believe criticism can bring anything negative ever.
The one who thinks an outcome of criticism is negative in any manner whatsoever has very limited knowledge in what he is talking about. What you think is a negative outcome, is a finding. That finding is always positive. To the dogmatic, blind worshiper its negative, but the critic who doesn't consider all outcomes as positive, is not a critic.
Peace.
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Piculet
Active Member
#71
firedragon
Veteran Member
Muslims do this exact same thing way more than any non-muslim. So they are hypocrites too?
You know that you described some of the most prevalent laymen muslim apologetics here in your description of non-muslim wannabe defenders of Islam?
ecco
Veteran Member
I find such ego-driven certainty to be a sign of ignorance, especially when the certainty stems from superstitious beliefs.
Bother me? Only in the sense that willful ignorance bothers me. As the old saying goes, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.
That's the fun part of the silliness, isn't it? So many different silly things to believe in. So many different silly believers in the different silly things. All of them convinced they know something. But, "knowing" something does not make it the truth. It's just ego-stroking.
I clearly designate as an atheist. If you understood the meaning of that word, you would not suggest that I cannot make up my own mind.
That's the most honest thing you have said in this thread.
Nope
EsonauticSage
Between extremes
Good for you bro
ecco
Veteran Member
Oh, goody. Let's show that one religion's atrocities are not so bad because another religion espouses the same atrocities.
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
Except that that was not the point of that post...
firedragon
Veteran Member
Exactly. Lets do that as return. Lets play that gutter game.
firedragon
Veteran Member
You described yourself perfectly.
eik
Active Member
Why are you critiquing the "cultural religion" brand of hypocrite so common in Western democracies? From them Islam recruits all of its members in western countries.
I mean, you don't seriously think Islam is going to be successful in recruiting from the ranks of spiritual Christians: those whom regard Mahomet only as a "false prophet" (the exact description of him I read only yesterday in my expositor's commentary on the Acts of the Apostle)?
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
I can answer that as a former atheist. It is a double standard. You can see it here:
What is Atheism? | American Atheists
All fair and well. Now here is from the same site on another page:
Our Vision | American Atheists
That is the double standard of at least some Western atheists. If you look closer, then they can't do what they claim that they can do: ...the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and the scientific method,...
In effect they are Believers in Rationalism, Naive Empiricism and Objectivism(non-Ayn Rand). They are as irrational as most people are, when it comes to understanding their own individual subjectivity and that includes me. I am no different, I just honest about it. That is it.
Regards and love
Mikkel
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
Thank you
Sounds like they want to have it both ways. It's not a belief system but then it is when it's convenient to them.
I am neither an apologist for Islam nor for Christianity. I see both of them as showing how bad religions can be. Fortunately, western Christianity has mellowed over the past 400 years or so. I would hope that Islam would do the same.
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