The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?

firedragon said:

Hmm. Haha, I was asking specific questions about the faith of the JW's you know because I honestly dont know any JW's scholars and have not really gone into theology of it. I have noted for years and years that most people dont really answer a simple question with a simple or in-depth explanation but they get offended or say a lot of things like a sermon someone would give to rosy up another and convert him. This is why its very difficult to get answers to a question from people. But I must say that Christians as a whole have immense scholarship and you learn this scholarship in academia.

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Did Jesus put much stock into the learned men of his day? He was more interested in people’s hearts....that’s why he chose the humble and meek, fisherman, as his 12.
Accurate Biblical knowledge can’t come to anyone who is alienated from the Father. Jesus indicated that in Luke 10:21. In fact, accurate knowledge will be “hidden.”

And those that disobey God’s requirements, alienate themselves. Doesn’t that make sense?

Hockeycowboy said:

Did Jesus put much stock into the learned men of his day? He was more interested in people’s hearts....that’s why he chose the humble and meek, fisherman, as his 12.
Accurate Biblical knowledge can’t come to anyone who is alienated from the Father. Jesus indicated that in Luke 10:21. In fact, accurate knowledge will be “hidden.”

And those that disobey God’s requirements, alienate themselves. Doesn’t that make sense?

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It makes sense, but I don't understand why you would say this. Do you think I claim you have to be a scholar or something to be in the eyes of God or something?

firedragon said:

It makes sense, but I don't understand why you would say this. Do you think I claim you have to be a scholar or something to be in the eyes of God or something?

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No, not at all. It’s just to help you see why we don’t.....put much importance in being trained at a religious seminar, I mean.

Hockeycowboy said:

No, not at all. It’s just to help you see why we don’t.....put much importance in being trained at a religious seminar, I mean.

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I understand. The thing I never quoted anyone with missionary or seminary education unless that's where they began their education. I quoted Christian scholars, not theologians from seminary who preach christianity. And I quoted not because of anything else, but because I was asked to name scholars I think are critical scholars. It is honestly laughable to ask someone to quote "critical scholars" and then just say something as irrelevant as "we dont follow seminary educated people" because that's not what was asked for and that's not what was quoted. Anyway I think this is just an up and down useless discourse brother.

Yet what I find fascinating is though you negate education at this kind of thing, for other points like what Deeje made in order to negate the documentary hypothesis the link in the WT website quotes professor Albright who was unfavourable to the mainstream scholarship on the documentary hypothesis who was also a proponent of orthodox or if you dont like the word orthodox, a methodist with a heavy missionary background with even his parents being methodist missionaries. Thus is it when its commodious someone quotes a scholar who is a heavy christian but in general they are rejected?

Also must note that the quoting of Albright in the website is absolutely too shallow for those who claim high scholarship on the subject while being unaware that most of his claims in this matter has been negated by his own students, contemporaries and some of the most important archeologists and bible scholars like professor William Dever. Also a small part of one of the writings of Albright has been copy pasted which I would deem is cherry picked because Dr. Albright himself claims that there are these citing of Camels in the book of Genesis which were definitely latter additions based on biblical criticism.

I believe that what ever we claim we must do a good research on it. If not, we can say we dont know. Also it is important that we remain consistent in our claims. Christian scholars are negated at one point but in another they are embraced with no analysis of what they said whatsoever.

Sorry brother it is unacceptable to me.

firedragon said:

But you rejected scholarship of people who dont promote Christianity, also you rejected scholars who are atheists who have no intention of promoting christianity, you also rejected Christian scholars who do promote christianity. Basically you rejected all scholars but embraced one when commodious.

Why is that?

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IMO, the hubris of the ignorant feeds on their conviction that they are "as innocent as babes" and that Jehovah was waiting, after the failure of the early church to avoid false beliefs, until two Americans, Charles Taze Russell and Nelson Barbour, were born, met, and collaborated for a while on their version of "Truth".
After Jehovah's failure to fulfill their belief in "the Imminent Return and Rapture" of 1878, Russell and Barbour came up with their new and improved "biblical prophecy mining" of the protestant King James Version of the bible.

Terry Sampson said:

IMO, the hubris of the ignorant feeds on their conviction that they are "as innocent as babes" and that Jehovah was waiting, after the failure of the early church to avoid false beliefs, until two Americans, Charles Taze Russell and Nelson Barbour, were born, met, and collaborated for a while on their version of "Truth".
After Jehovah's failure to fulfill their belief in "the Imminent Return and Rapture" of 1878, Russell and Barbour came up with their new and improved "biblical prophecy mining" of the protestant King James Version of the bible.

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The Bible itself, in Daniel 12, reveals that Truth would be hidden “until the time of end”; then “true knowledge would become abundant.” Also at Isaiah 2:2-4, during these same times — “the final part of the days” — the ‘worship of Jehovah would become established’.....and His worshippers “from every nation” would “beat swords into plowshares and Spears into pruning shears, neither will they learn war anymore.”
That’s being fulfilled now, by worshippers of Jehovah.

Firstly let me just say that I admire your loyalty to your church...and I understand that your indoctrination into your church's teachings has probably been with you since childhood. But my own study of the Bible and history itself do not identify the RCC as a church that Christ would ever have set foot in.

Let me innumerate the reasons why I can say that....

Dogknox20 said:

Scriptures cannot be rejected! Catholics were NOT Among Arius he was AMONG Catholics!

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Although JW's reject the trinity, we are not Arians...OK? We know the God we worship and we do not recognize the triune god adopted by the Catholic church in the fourth century.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

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Now, I'm really sorry to bring this up, but what can I say...? No one has 'brought the way of the truth into disrepute' more than the Catholic church both in her past conduct with the cruel and ungodly Inquisition, and in modern times stretching back who knows how long, with systemic child abuse in Catholic orphanages and institutions all over the world.

Trinitarians deny the Sovereign Lord who bought them because they have placed the son on the same level as his superior Father. False teachers entered the flock just after the end of the first century and it was downhill all the way to Constantine who fused pagan Roman sun worship with weakened Christianity. They turned the Christian faith into an idolatrous counterfeit, elevating Mary to goddess status when Jesus himself did not promote her to any special status at all.

This is PROPHESY (above) you must reject to be against the ONLY Catholic Church Jesus formed on rock!

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Peter never was the rock....Jesus was the rock upon which his church was built.
Peter was not a Pope because there was no such position in original Christianity.....and there was no apostolic succession leading to your present Pope. Many of your Popes were very immoral men. (Matthew 21:42-44)

Historical FACT: Arius was removed from AMONG Christians because he taught "Jesus is not God!" Arius was condemned as a Heretic he brought the way of truth into dispute! (verse 2 above)

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Historical fact:....the Catholic church would not know a heretic if it fell over one....sorry. When the real heretics accused innocent people of heresy and then tortured them into a confession and murdered them, you have to ask if Christ ever did that...or would ever do that? The answer is no! and if he came back today, he would hold your church to an accounting for all the blood spilled because of its erroneous teachings and tyrannical power over its European subjects. (Isaiah 1:15)

Fact is 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 is a warning to the Catholic about the heresies of the JWs and the Watch Tower!

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Sorry but it is an indictment against any worshipper of the true God, adopting pagan worship of any sort.
The pagan elements of Catholic worship are undeniable I'm afraid....

You are ROOTLESS you cannot trace your linage back to Jesus without rejecting scriptures!

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The Catholic church can trace her roots straight back to Babylon.....

1) Multiplicities of gods, especially triads.




2) Mother goddess worship...



3) Idolatry....



4) Pagan Roman sun worship....




That is just for starters....please don't make me go on...... You seem to have no idea.....

Deeje said:

Firstly let me just say that I admire your loyalty to your church...and I understand that your indoctrination into your church's teachings has probably been with you since childhood. But my own study of the Bible and history itself do not identify the RCC as a church that Christ would ever have set foot in.....

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Deeje Thank you for your post.. The Catholic Church was the ONE Church Jesus built of ROCK! Jesus built it on ROCK so it will never fall!
To believe as a JW you MUST reject Logic and scriptures!
Matthew 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.

Matthew 16 Jesus built his house on ROCK! Peter means ROCK Jesus changed Simons name to ROCK! To say the Church failed is to say God is NOT perfect!
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Deeje QUESTION: Did Jesus lie!? (not overcome it)
You say Peter is NOT Pope the first Chief Apostle???

1. St. Peter (32-67)
2. St. Linus (67-76)
3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
4. St. Clement I (88-97)
5. St. Evaristus (97-105)
6. St. Alexander I (105-115)
7. St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
8. St. Telesphorus (125-136)
9. St. Hyginus (136-140)
10. St. Pius I (140-155)
11. St. Anicetus (155-166)
12. St. Soter (166-175)
13. St. Eleutherius (175-189)
14. St. Victor I (189-199)
15. St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
16. St. Callistus I (217-22) Callistus and the following three popes were opposed by St. Hippolytus, antipope (217-236)
17. St. Urban I (222-30)
18. St. Pontain (230-35)
19. St. Anterus (235-36)
20. St. Fabian (236-50)
21. St. Cornelius (251-53) Opposed by Novatian, antipope (251)
22. St. Lucius I (253-54)
23. St. Stephen I (254-257)
24. St. Sixtus II (257-258)
25. St. Dionysius (260-268)
26. St. Felix I (269-274)
27. St. Eutychian (275-283)
28. St. Caius (283-296) Also called Gaius
29. St. Marcellinus (296-304)
30. St. Marcellus I (308-309)
31. St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
32. St. Miltiades (311-14)
33. St. Sylvester I (314-35)
34. St. Marcus (336)
35. St. Julius I (337-52)
36. Liberius (352-66) Opposed by Felix II, antipope (355-365)
37. St. Damasus I (366-84) Opposed by Ursicinus, antipope (366-367)
38. St. Siricius (384-99)
39. St. Anastasius I (399-401)
40. St. Innocent I (401-17)
41. St. Zosimus (417-18)
42. St. Boniface I (418-22) Opposed by Eulalius, antipope (418-419)
43. St. Celestine I (422-32)
44. St. Sixtus III (432-40)
45. St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
46. St. Hilarius (461-68)
47. St. Simplicius (468-83)
48. St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
49. St. Gelasius I (492-96)
50. Anastasius II (496-98)
51. St. Symmachus (498-514) Opposed by Laurentius, antipope (498-501)
52. St. Hormisdas (514-23)
53. St. John I (523-26)
54. St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
55. Boniface II (530-32) Opposed by Dioscorus, antipope (530)
56. John II (533-35)
57. St. Agapetus I (535-36) Also called Agapitus I
58. St. Silverius (536-37)
59. Vigilius (537-55)
60. Pelagius I (556-61)
61. John III (561-74)
62. Benedict I (575-79)
63. Pelagius II (579-90)
64. St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
65. Sabinian (604-606)
66. Boniface III (607)
67. St. Boniface IV (608-15)
68. St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-18)
69. Boniface V (619-25)
70. Honorius I (625-38)
71. Severinus (640)
72. John IV (640-42)
73. Theodore I (642-49)
74. St. Martin I (649-55)
75. St. Eugene I (655-57)
76. St. Vitalian (657-72)
77. Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
78. Donus (676-78)
79. St. Agatho (678-81)
80. St. Leo II (682-83)
81. St. Benedict II (684-85)
82. John V (685-86)
83. Conon (686-87)
84. St. Sergius I (687-701) Opposed by Theodore and Paschal, antipopes (687)
85. John VI (701-05)
86. John VII (705-07)
87. Sisinnius (708)
88. Constantine (708-15)
89. St. Gregory II (715-31)
90. St. Gregory III (731-41)
91. St. Zachary (741-52) Stephen II followed Zachary, but because he died before being consecrated, modern lists omit him
92. Stephen II (III) (752-57)
93. St. Paul I (757-67)
94. Stephen III (IV) (767-72) Opposed by Constantine II (767) and Philip (768), antipopes (767)
95. Adrian I (772-95)
96. St. Leo III (795-816)
97. Stephen IV (V) (816-17)
98. etc

etc
266 Popes
Deeje Up to today Pope France in an UNBROKEN LINE! France can trace his linage back directly to Peter!

Deeje said:

Firstly let me just say that I admire your loyalty to your church...and I understand that your indoctrination into your church's teachings has probably been with you since childhood. But my own study of the Bible and history itself do not identify the RCC as a church that Christ would ever have set foot in.

Historical fact:....the Catholic church would not know a heretic if it fell over one....sorry. When the real heretics accused innocent people of heresy and then tortured them into a confession and murdered them, you have to ask if Christ ever did that...or would ever do that? The answer is no! and if he came back today, he would hold your church to an accounting for all the blood spilled because of its erroneous teachings and tyrannical power over its European subjects. (Isaiah 1:15)

Sorry but it is an indictment against any worshipper of the true God, adopting pagan worship of any sort.
The pagan elements of Catholic worship are undeniable I'm afraid....

The Catholic church can trace her roots straight back to Babylon.....
You seem to have no idea.....

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I reply.... This is an historical fact... Jesus did NOT start the JW's! Jesus built a Church on ROCK before he left, it was NOT the JW's! Scriptures clearly tell you "Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his followers to the end of time!... If he is ALWAYS with them he cannot, he could NOT be with your church.. LOGIC alone proves this! Until Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916) there was NO JW's or Watch Tower until Russell there was NO NWT!

You say: Catholic' worship Mary ?! FACT: Catholics HONOR Mary our Mother; God commands "Honor your Mother!" Jesus MUST Honor Mary his mother he would be breaking a commandment if he did not! The Body of Christ Honors our Mother!
Luke 1:48 And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,

Deeje This PROPHESY (above) can ONLY apply to Catholics, ONLY we have always honored Mary as blessed..! Only the Catholic can say "We are in the generations of Mary's family"!
Mary is BLESSED she is our mother we are in the GENERATIONS going back to Mary and thus Jesus! You can't be in Mary's family you are root less Mary cannot be your mother so logic alone says Jesus cannot be your brother!

The bible did not fall out of the sky... The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church made the bible! She alone decided the Canon! She alone with the help of God decided the Inspired letters manuscripts and also weeded out the phony ones! Until the Catholic Church made the bible no one knew what was inspired and what was NOT! THINK..... If God helped her in deciding the Inspired from the phony scriptures don't you think God would not also help her INTERPRET the scriptures!?

Deeje You have rejected the Catholic Church as a lie.... Okay... Prove to me the validity of your man made JW church!???
I WAIT!

Dogknox20 said:

Deeje Thank you for your post.. The Catholic Church was the ONE Church Jesus built of ROCK! Jesus built it on ROCK so it will never fall!

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But he never called it Catholic Church. Catholic Church is an institution. If Jesus meant this to be the institution he built on the rock or Simon or what ever you wish to make it, he will call it. Instead the Bible says the first pillar taught by Jesus is the shema of exodus. The Catholic Church as you know now was not built by Jesus but in Rome 300 years after Jesus passed.

And you have misunderstood the meaning of worship in Christianity. You can also worship various idols like money. You should read the Bible. And calling Mary the theotokos and praying to her is a form of worship.

you say the church decided the Bible canon. So tell me then why don’t you today have the canon of the Catholic Church of the 4th century? If you honoured your church and the canon they made isn’t it strange you don’t believe in that canon? Was not the books shepard of hermas, epistle of batnabas, epistles of clement, all exist in the canon in different manuscripts?

why have you abandoned the Bible?

firedragon said:

why have you abandoned the Bible?

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Are you sure that you want to get in the middle of a wrestling match between a JW and a Catholic? IMO, that would be somewhat like asking an atheist if Jews and Muslims worship the same god.

Hockeycowboy said:

That’s being fulfilled now, by worshippers of Jehovah.

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Prima facie evidence of "biblical prophecy mining" which assumes that there are prophecies in the Hebrew and Christian canon which have just been floating around waiting for JWs to come along and "fulfill" them.

Terry Sampson said:

Are you sure that you want to get in the middle of a wrestling match between a JW and a Catholic? IMO, that would be somewhat like asking an atheist if Jews and Muslims worship the same god.

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I understand what you say. Just that the argument is so much like preaching to proselytize I wanted to see what the outcome would be.

but I shall take your advice. Thanks.

firedragon said:

Just that the argument is so much like preaching to proselytize

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Indeed, I agree.

OK, since you have asked, I will give you a rundown of why I have rejected, not only Catholicism, but all the churches of Christendom who share Catholic doctrine.

Be careful what you ask for....

Dogknox20 said:

Deeje Thank you for your post.. The Catholic Church was the ONE Church Jesus built of ROCK! Jesus built it on ROCK so it will never fall!
To believe as a JW you MUST reject Logic and scriptures!

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Again, I understand your reasonings....it is what I would expect from one devoted to a church, rather than being devoted to God and obedient to the teachings of his son. You have to know the Bible to see how far your church has deviated from what Christ began, and to appreciate the magnitude of the divide.

I was not raised Catholic, but in the Anglican church, which is somewhat of a clone of Catholicism without some of the trappings, and of equally dubious origins. You seem to be ignorant of your own church’s beginnings......but it isn’t difficult to research it....any search will inform you of their horrible history.

When I became a student of the Bible rather than being spoon fed my church’s doctrines, I discovered so many of the core beliefs of Christendom were carried over from the ”mother” church and because her daughters teach much of the same error, I wondered why they bothered....the same core teachings saturated all of Christendom, regardless of the label.

Dogknox20 said:

Matthew 16 Jesus built his house on ROCK! Peter means ROCK Jesus changed Simons name to ROCK! To say the Church failed is to say God is NOT perfect!
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Deeje QUESTION: Did Jesus lie!? (not overcome it)
You say Peter is NOT Pope the first Chief Apostle???

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Fact: There were no “Popes” in first century Christianity. The Pope of Rome carries a title that is often glossed over, but have you never wondered why your Pope is called “the Pontiff?
The full title is ”Pontifex Maximus” and it is not a Christian title. Welcoming Constantine in Rome, a pagan Senate declared him chief Augustus and Pontifex Maximus, that is, high priest of the pagan religion of the empire. Does this raise a red flag? It would for me.

After his final conquest, Constantine became the undisputed ruler of the Roman world. In 325 C.E., though not a baptized Christian, he presided over the first great ecumenical council of the “Christian” church, which condemned Arianism and drew up a statement of essential beliefs called the Nicene Creed. Imagine!.....a pagan Emperor who was devoted to Zeus his whole life, never fully committed to Christianity, which by that time was nigh on to useless as a teacher for Christ. He publicly promoted the pagan gods of Rome for every pagan temple he constructed, and he fused paganism and some aspects of Christian teaching, doing exactly what Paul warned about in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18.....no one can mix the two and remain a child of God. Nothing spiritually "unclean" can be acceptable to him.

Constantine fell terminally ill in the year 337 C.E. At that late hour of his life, he was baptized, and then he died. After his death the Senate placed him among the Roman gods. The founder of your church was never a baptized Christian. He fused Christianity with cherished Roman beliefs and festivals and created the Roman Catholic church. “Universal” because of its wide appeal to all, not because it adhered to Christ’s teachings.....just the opposite in fact. It allowed the pagans to do what they loved and introduced things glossed over with a thin veneer of Christian appearance, but none of it was.

Your Pope’s title betrays his pagan office and Catholic doctrines betray a complete corruption of the Christian faith. This is what was foretold by Christ and his apostles.....the heresy of Roman Catholicism resulted in “weeds” taking over the world as the only form of “Christianity” in existence for centuries, but the "wheat" were still there, persecuted, tortured and murdered by a church, drunk with its own power.

It appears to me that everything Christ said not to do, they found a way to do it....which was.....

1) To teach the truth of God’s word....they completely corrupted it.

2) To keep separate from false worship....they freely adopted it.

3) To follow Christ’s teachings in all things...they ignored most of his teachings.

4) Reject idolatry....they filled their churches with idols.

5) Keep free of bloodshed....their hands have always dripped in blood....so much innocent blood. They burned people alive for disagreeing with the church or for merely possessing a Bible.

You demonstrate complete ignorance of where your church originated.....and I don’t believe that it was ever “Christian” from its sorry beginnings. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Dogknox20 said:

266 Popes
Deeje Up to today Pope France in an UNBROKEN LINE! France can trace his linage back directly to Peter!

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In view of the foregoing.....your list is meaningless to anyone who is not Catholic, for all the reasons outlined....

Dogknox20 said:

Jesus did NOT start the JW's! Jesus built a Church on ROCK before he left, it was NOT the JW's! Scriptures clearly tell you "Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his followers to the end of time!... If he is ALWAYS with them he cannot, he could NOT be with your church.. LOGIC alone proves this! Until Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916) there was NO JW

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If you were familiar with all of scripture, not just what you have been selectively fed, you would see that there have always been Jehovah's witnesses. Jesus is called "the faithful and true Witness" in Revelation 3:14. At Isaiah 43:10, Israel are identified as Jehovah's Witnesses.....we have actually been around a lot longer than the RCC.

As we know, Christ promised to return, and he gave a “sign” to his disciples to indicate that in a series of events, all occurring in one specific period of time that the prophet Daniel called “the time of the end”. (Daniel 12:4; Matthew 24:3-14)

Daniel was told that no one would understand this prophesy until that time arrived. He also told us when we could expect “the time of the end” to begin....so we believe this prophesy, written some 500 years before Jesus walked the earth, is being fulfilled right now. (Matthew 24:3-14) This is “the time of the end” when God would cleanse a people of the religious filth that had crept in over many centuries.....(Daniel 12:9-10) but he warned that the wicked would be granted no insight or understanding. For them, nothing would change.Their heads would be firmly planted in the sand, not open to anything that might challenge their firmly indoctrinated beliefs.

A new and well informed group of Christians arrived on the scene exactly when God said they would....these men, of no particular denomination, felt compelled by God's spirit to join together to undertake a thorough investigation of all of Christendom’s doctrines in the light of scripture, and to root out everything that was against Christ’s teachings.......they made their findings known, and many people saw the truth and joined their ranks as word spread that Christendom was not teaching the truth from God's word.....they saw it clearly and understood what they had to do. (Revelation 18:4-5) Gradually, after years of thorough research, they eliminated everything that did not belong. And they got busy doing what Jesus commanded at Matthew 28:19-20......something the churches of Christendom have never been able to accomplish on a consistent basis. But Jesus said it would be done right up to “the end”. (Matthew 24:14) Which we believe is not far off now.

Dogknox20 said:

You say: Catholic' worship Mary ?! FACT: Catholics HONOR Mary our Mother; God commands "Honor your Mother!" Jesus MUST Honor Mary his mother he would be breaking a commandment if he did not! The Body of Christ Honors our Mother!

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That is just the point....she is Jesus' mother, not yours. She had at least 6 other children because she was their mother too. She was not ever virgin. (Matthew 1:25, Matthew 13:53-56) Jesus was born into a typical Jewish family with lots of children. Strangely, the pagan mother goddesses were somehow ever virgin....

Your church takes honor all the way into idolatrous worship. You accept Mary as a mediatrix, but there is only one who is appointed to that position......it wasn’t Mary. (1 Timothy 2:5)

You give her an immaculate conception when the Bible does not. She offered a 'sin offering' at the temple after Jesus was born.....like all other Jewish women who had given birth.

Mother goddesses were widely worshipped in paganism and Mary received titles that were originally assigned to those goddesses...."Our Lady"...."Queen of Heaven"...did you know this?

Did you know that “Easter” is also the name of a pagan fertility goddess? Her symbols were rabbits and eggs.....Easter is not found in the Bible because it was grafted into a corrupted church so that the pagans would feel right at home. It does not honor Christ at all....just the opposite in fact. Christmas is another pagan celebration given a “Christian” label by your church.

Dogknox20 said:

Deeje This PROPHESY (above) can ONLY apply to Catholics, ONLY we have always honored Mary as blessed..! Only the Catholic can say "We are in the generations of Mary's family"!
Mary is BLESSED she is our mother we are in the GENERATIONS going back to Mary and thus Jesus! You can't be in Mary's family you are root less Mary cannot be your mother so logic alone says Jesus cannot be your brother!

Click to expand...

Not so.....Jesus did not ever exalt his mother to the status that Catholicism did. It is nothing more than thinly disguised mother goddess worship. Adoration to this level is worship.

Dogknox20 said:

The bible did not fall out of the sky... The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church made the bible! She alone decided the Canon! She alone with the help of God decided the Inspired letters manuscripts and also weeded out the phony ones! Until the Catholic Church made the bible no one knew what was inspired and what was NOT! THINK..... If God helped her in deciding the Inspired from the phony scriptures don't you think God would not also help her INTERPRET the scriptures!?

Click to expand...

Oh dear.....it has already been stated that the Bible we have today is not the one formulated by the RCC. I can assure you that the Bible is God’s word.....not the work of any church. I can also assure you that not a word in it was written by a Catholic. All the Bible writers were Jewish, like Jesus.

Dogknox20 said:

Deeje You have rejected the Catholic Church as a lie.... Okay... Prove to me the validity of your man made JW church!???
I WAIT!

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I hope I have provide enough evidence to at least show you that your church has not been honest with its adherents. It relies on their ignorance to keep your Pope and his minions living in a gold inlaid palace, whilst the majority of Catholic people live in abject poverty. Beggars at the gates of the Vatican are ignored. Did Christ ever do that? would Christ ever do that?

Would Jesus ever approve of a pagan Egyptian obelisk (symbol of the sun god Ra) in the middle of a Babylonian sun wheel, adorning a place considered holy to the Catholic Church? You must be the judge of what you consider acceptable to Christ.

I just know that I could never be part of anything that so dishonored God and his son...sorry..

firedragon said:

But he never called it Catholic Church. Catholic Church is an institution. If Jesus meant this to be the institution he built on the rock or Simon or what ever you wish to make it, he will call it. Instead the Bible says the first pillar taught by Jesus is the shema of exodus. The Catholic Church as you know now was not built by Jesus but in Rome 300 years after Jesus passed.

And you have misunderstood the meaning of worship in Christianity. You can also worship various idols like money. You should read the Bible. And calling Mary the theotokos and praying to her is a form of worship.

you say the church decided the Bible canon. So tell me then why don’t you today have the canon of the Catholic Church of the 4th century? If you honored your church and the canon they made isn’t it strange you don’t believe in that canon? Was not the books shepard of hermas, epistle of batnabas, epistles of clement, all exist in the canon in different manuscripts?

why have you abandoned the Bible?

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firedragon the Catholic Church is named by men! God is universal his body MUST also be universal!
Ignatius of Antioch was a Catholic the Church had the name "Catholic" before 110 A.D. he said (below) Notice also the mention of EUCHARIST!?
“Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
firedragon did you see it??? "Just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" 110 A.D.
Notice: The Bishop is where the Catholic Church is! Did you see 110 A.D.? The way Ignatius writes it is clear the Church was named CATHOLIC before 110 A.D. he writes as if all know the name!

The Martyrdom of Polycarp; Polycarp another CATHOLIC bishop!
“And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).

firedragon Did you see it?? A.D. 155 Bishop of the Catholic Church! So much for the Church being built 300 years after Jesus! Did you notice A.D. 155

You say praying to Mary is worshiping her! Fact Worship is only for God! Asking a saint to pray for you is scriptural! Catholics HONOR Mary our mother, Christians have ALWAYS Honored Mary because she is our mother!

The Church closed the Canon of scripture! with the same 73 books we have today!
In the first four centuries of the Church many books, such as the seven letters of Ignatius, the Letter of Clement [the fourth pope] to the Corinthians, the Didache, and The Shepherd were revered by many Christians as inspired but were later shown to be non-inspired.
firedragon It was not until the Synod of Rome under Pope Damasus in A.D. 382, followed by the Councils of Hippo and Carthage, that the Catholic Church defined, albeit non-infallibly, which books made it into the New Testament and which didn’t. Probably the council fathers studied the (complete) Muratorian Fragment and other documents, including, of course, the books in question themselves, but it was not until these Councils that the Church officially settled the issue.

firedragon The question is; why do you trust the salvation of your soul to the teaching of Charles Taze Russell? Plus in 1931, the name Jehovah's witnesses was adopted, cutting ties with Russell's earlier followers. Did you see it: Jehovah's witnesses was formed by men NOT by Jesus 1931 A.D. you MUST reject the scriptures to be a JW you MUST reject what Christians teach!!?

Terry Sampson said:

Prima facie evidence of "biblical prophecy mining" which assumes that there are prophecies in the Hebrew and Christian canon which have just been floating around waiting for JWs to come along and "fulfill" them.

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Yep....those who are exalting the worship of Yahweh / Jehovah, who are global ("from all nations"), and "learning war no more."

If you are aware of other groups meeting these parameters, let us know please.

Dogknox20 said:

firedragon the Catholic Church is named by men! God is universal his body MUST also be universal!

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That statement refutes everything you said earlier.

Now you are quoting Ignatius and polycarp etc who are church fathers who didnt believe in the trinity. Are you claiming the church without a belief in the trinity as you believe is the church that Jesus build through the "rock"?