Proof of Islam?

Tokita said:

With all that you say - simply consider the actions of all of the Muslim world. Then and only them you might understand Islam better.

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You're not saying anything here. Which Muslims? where? what types? when?

Tokita said:

Islam does not consider that prophets sin, and consider Muhammad pure and sinless.

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Just like in Christianity you believe Jesus is sinless, in Islam we believe all Prophets are sinless and infallible, not just Jesus. God wouldn't send prophets that weren't. This is creed.

Tokita said:

The new Testament shows us the true nature of God. He revealed Himself to us - humbled Himself and became like us.

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No, that is your belief, not the New Testament.

God only appears once in the New Testament, saying "This is my son who I am well pleased" according to the authors. God is not depicted in the New Testament at all otherwise, period.
God is a reoccurring character all throughout the Old Testament though.

Tokita said:

Your statement above is 99% false because the Hafdiths are the RECORDED saying of Muhammad. They were authenticated as true and credible. In fact, the Hadith of Albukhari is considered second to the Quran. Everything Muhammad said was meant to be from Allah. Explaining otherwise would be very misleading and to many Muslims heretical.

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Load of nonsense.

Hadith are genre of historical literature, sayings with chains of transmission. You have no idea what you're talking about if you think that all Hadith are "authenticated as true and credible", that is completely false. Large chunks of Hadith from most collections are unanimously rejected by most Muslims as unreliable and false, so many Hadith that people like you would probably quote us to tell us that Muhammad was evil etc are usually very distinctly fabricated Hadith made to defame the Prophet (that was a very popular thing back then).

Bukhari is not second to the Qur'an at all (that statement should be regarded as entirely heretical even by Sunni standards), in fact us Shi'i reject that collection entirely, we do not read from it whatsoever except for in dialogue with Sunnis. Outside of that, Bukhari's book has no credibility to us.

Tokita said:

I highly recommend that you read the Quran and Hadith. I that recommendation to all people. In fact, I advocated teaching this religion in schools. I know well if taught with an open mind, that is to say without cherry-picking, no intelligent person will believe in it.

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I think the same could be said of Christianity but for very different reasons than you say that about Islam.
What is an intelligent person and why are they considered intelligent?

Tokita said:

As for the Baha'i religion, I do have great respect for many reasons one of which the equality between men and women. I also admire Bahaullah, His son Abdulbaha, and Shogi Afandi. I consider Bahullah a great philosopher and a great man in history, a prophet who tried to give meaning to One God and One Religion. The Book of Certitude is a work of genius. I was first introduced to Bahaism by reading Thief in the Night by William Seers.

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So if you believe that Baha'u'llah was a prophet, do you also believe He received communication from God? If you believe that, then you would be compelled to also believe what Baha'u'llah wrote about being the return of the Christ Spirit and the Messiah.

The way I see it, Baha'u'llah was one of three things: (1) a delusional man who thought He received communication from God, or (2) a con-man who had a desire for power and/or personal gain, or (3) who He claimed to be, the return of the Christ Spirit and the Messiah the Jews have been waiting for.
If Baha'u'llah was (1) or (2), then Baha'u'llah could not have been a great philosopher and a great man in history...
If Baha'u'llah was (3), then Baha'u'llah could not have been a great philosopher and a great man in history because He would have been a divine Manifestation of God, like Jesus.

Tokita said:

I do not believe, however, that all religions are the same and they are simply misinterpreted. If you read the Quran and Hadith you will find out why. I also do believe in the resurrection of Christ - Bahaiis do not. Unlike Islam, Bahaism is the most peaceful religion on earth.

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Baha'is do not claim that all religions are the same and simply misinterpreted. We believe the great religions all proceed from one Source, God, but they are different because mankind's requirements are different in every age.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

Baha’u’llah wrote that all religions were revealed by God for a particular purpose and when a religion has achieved its purpose, God will renew it.

“As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it.” Gleanings, p. 81

What is the significance if Christ's bodily resurrection to you? Do you believe it just because that is what you were taught to believe? How would that affect your other Christian beliefs if you did not believe Christ rose from the grave?

There are Christians who do not believe in the resurrection and they have not lost their faith:

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

Tokita said:

Do not take my words or anyone else's regarding Islam. Simply access and read the resources yourself. I know you will see what you have not been taught.

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Whatever I would see by reading the texts would just be my personal opinion of the texts, my own interpretation of what they mean. I would have to have a broader understanding of Islam and the historical backdrop from which it arose in order to understand the texts. I certainly think that Muslims are in a better position to teach about their own religion than Christians are. Would you go to a Jew who does not believe in Jesus to learn about Christianity?

Trailblazer said:

I think the same could be said of Christianity but for very different reasons than you say that about Islam.
What is an intelligent person and why are they considered intelligent?

So if you believe that Baha'u'llah was a prophet, do you also believe He received communication from God? If you believe that, then you would be compelled to also believe what Baha'u'llah wrote about being the return of the Christ Spirit and the Messiah.

The way I see it, Baha'u'llah was one of three things: (1) a delusional man who thought He received communication from God, or (2) a con-man who had a desire for power and/or personal gain, or (3) who He claimed to be, the return of the Christ Spirit and the Messiah the Jews have been waiting for.
If Baha'u'llah was (1) or (2), then Baha'u'llah could not have been a great philosopher and a great man in history...
If Baha'u'llah was (3), then Baha'u'llah could not have been a great philosopher and a great man in history because He would have been a divine Manifestation of God, like Jesus.

Baha'is do not claim that all religions are the same and simply misinterpreted. We believe the great religions all proceed from one Source, God, but they are different because mankind's requirements are different in every age.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

Baha’u’llah wrote that all religions were revealed by God for a particular purpose and when a religion has achieved its purpose, God will renew it.

“As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it.” Gleanings, p. 81

What is the significance if Christ's bodily resurrection to you? Do you believe it just because that is what you were taught to believe? How would that affect your other Christian beliefs if you did not believe Christ rose from the grave?

There are Christians who do not believe in the resurrection and they have not lost their faith:

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

Whatever I would see by reading the texts would just be my personal opinion of the texts, my own interpretation of what they mean. I would have to have a broader understanding of Islam and the historical backdrop from which it arose in order to understand the texts. I certainly think that Muslims are in a better position to teach about their own religion than Christians are. Would you go to a Jew who does not believe in Jesus to learn about Christianity?

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Thanks for the reply.

1. I do not believe that Bahaullah was a prophet. He was a great inspired man who was trying to bring people close together. He and Bab suffered for their belief and Bahaullah died in prison as a peaceful human being and created a religion that does not support violence or things that may cause violence. The belief I have regarding Bahaullah is driven by two points I consider as facts: (1) Islam is not a religion - all from what I read and grew up with. (2) Jesus said that it is not what goes into man's mouth that defiles him, but what comes out of it. I believe God does not put anything on the face of the earth that hurts man, only man chooses to hurt himself. For example, Alcohol, Pork, etc.

2. I believe in the resurrection - not because I was taught that. In fact, it is very simple. (a) God wanted to show us His true nature as a loving and sacrificial God. Many people portrayed Him as a demanding person who demands good works. He showed us His nature through Christ.

3. If you believe that God is Holy as I do, then no one can be in His presence with any defilement. We are all sinners and sin is defilement. One must take that sin away (atone) for you so you can be clean. But none can be saved themselves on their accord. Imagine this CRUDE scenario: You committed a crime that the judge decided to fine you for it $1000 as a fair judgment. But the judge knows that you do not have money to save yourself from prison. Assuming that the judge is your father and he wanted to punish you because he is a fair judge. How would you suppose he could save you (fairly)? You still have to pay for your mistake. So he decides to pay the $1000 for you. This is what Christ had done for mankind. He was resurrected because He is one with God.

4. In other religions, people say, why would Jesus have to die for you to be saved? God can simply forgive. Just meditate on this thought for a while and you will see the truth. God cannot be mocked and his judgment is fair.

Trailblazer said:

I think the same could be said of Christianity but for very different reasons than you say that about Islam.
What is an intelligent person and why are they considered intelligent?

So if you believe that Baha'u'llah was a prophet, do you also believe He received communication from God? If you believe that, then you would be compelled to also believe what Baha'u'llah wrote about being the return of the Christ Spirit and the Messiah.

The way I see it, Baha'u'llah was one of three things: (1) a delusional man who thought He received communication from God, or (2) a con-man who had a desire for power and/or personal gain, or (3) who He claimed to be, the return of the Christ Spirit and the Messiah the Jews have been waiting for.
If Baha'u'llah was (1) or (2), then Baha'u'llah could not have been a great philosopher and a great man in history...
If Baha'u'llah was (3), then Baha'u'llah could not have been a great philosopher and a great man in history because He would have been a divine Manifestation of God, like Jesus.

Baha'is do not claim that all religions are the same and simply misinterpreted. We believe the great religions all proceed from one Source, God, but they are different because mankind's requirements are different in every age.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

Baha’u’llah wrote that all religions were revealed by God for a particular purpose and when a religion has achieved its purpose, God will renew it.

“As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it.” Gleanings, p. 81

What is the significance if Christ's bodily resurrection to you? Do you believe it just because that is what you were taught to believe? How would that affect your other Christian beliefs if you did not believe Christ rose from the grave?

There are Christians who do not believe in the resurrection and they have not lost their faith:

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

Whatever I would see by reading the texts would just be my personal opinion of the texts, my own interpretation of what they mean. I would have to have a broader understanding of Islam and the historical backdrop from which it arose in order to understand the texts. I certainly think that Muslims are in a better position to teach about their own religion than Christians are. Would you go to a Jew who does not believe in Jesus to learn about Christianity?

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I also believe in the resurrection because it is present in the Bible (Old and New Testament), Jesus appeared to many people after the resurrection. They have seen Him alive and interacted with Him as well. And, there are many people 1st and 2nd century who died for their faith believing in the resurrection. The Bible has been proven to be correct, even by non-Christian historians.

VoidoftheSun said:

Load of nonsense.

Hadith are genre of historical literature, sayings with chains of transmission. You have no idea what you're talking about if you think that all Hadith are "authenticated as true and credible", that is completely false. Large chunks of Hadith from most collections are unanimously rejected by most Muslims as unreliable and false, so many Hadith that people like you would probably quote us to tell us that Muhammad was evil etc are usually very distinctly fabricated Hadith made to defame the Prophet (that was a very popular thing back then).

Bukhari is not second to the Qur'an at all (that statement should be regarded as entirely heretical even by Sunni standards), in fact, us Shi'i reject that collection entirely, we do not read from it whatsoever except for in dialogue with Sunnis. Outside of that, Bukhari's book has no credibility for us.

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If you do not consider Hadith, you would not know a lot about Muhammad, adopted son Zeid (only in Hadith and name only in the Quran), etc. Without Hadith you would have no Quran. Hadith was scrutinized wnd only what was accepted at the time was kept. Albukhary cleaned all of what was accepted at the time of Muhammad and rejected what was not accepted in his time claiming that it is offensive. Ibn Ishaq, which is earlier that Albukhary, was rejected as authentic.

Hadith: The Second Fundamental Source of Guidance

(An-Najm 53:3-4) (Muhammad) does not speak from his desires; indeed, what he says is revelation.

If the above Sura is true then everything reported in Hadith is true and from Allah. To Sunnis that is the case, to Shiia it is not true. Where is the blasphemy for Sunnis?

Only recently some Muslims began to reject part of the Hadith because of several offensive sayings.

Tokita said:

If you do not consider Hadith, you would not know a lot about Muhammad, adopted son Zeid (only in Hadith and name only in the Quran), etc. Without Hadith you would have no Quran. Hadith was scrutinized wnd only what was accepted at the time was kept. Albukhary cleaned all of what was accepted at the time of Muhammad and rejected what was not accepted in his time claiming that it is offensive. Ibn Ishaq, which is earlier that Albukhary, was rejected as authentic.

Hadith: The Second Fundamental Source of Guidance

(An-Najm 53:3-4) (Muhammad) does not speak from his desires; indeed, what he says is revelation.

If the above Sura is true then everything reported in Hadith is true and from Allah. To Sunnis that is the case, to Shiia it is not true. Where is the blasphemy for Sunnis?

Only recently some Muslims began to reject part of the Hadith because of several offensive sayings.

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Nah, the Qur'an is pretty good without the hadith. Who cares about Zeid or whatever. Maybe just you?

Tokita said:

If you do not consider Hadith, you would not know a lot about Muhammad, adopted son Zeid (only in Hadith and name only in the Quran), etc. Without Hadith you would have no Quran. Hadith was scrutinized wnd only what was accepted at the time was kept. Albukhary cleaned all of what was accepted at the time of Muhammad and rejected what was not accepted in his time claiming that it is offensive. Ibn Ishaq, which is earlier that Albukhary, was rejected as authentic.

Hadith: The Second Fundamental Source of Guidance

(An-Najm 53:3-4) (Muhammad) does not speak from his desires; indeed, what he says is revelation.

If the above Sura is true then everything reported in Hadith is true and from Allah. To Sunnis that is the case, to Shiia it is not true. Where is the blasphemy for Sunnis?

Only recently some Muslims began to reject part of the Hadith because of several offensive sayings.

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Really? My understanding is that a lot of hadiths are, or were, considered suspect and that cleaning up the hadiths has been a time-honoured occupation of muslim scholars.

exchemist said:

Really? My understanding is that a lot of hadiths are, or were, considered suspect and that cleaning up the hadiths has been a time-honoured occupation of muslim scholars.

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Tokita seems to be attached to the Hadith, because without the Hadith, the Qur'an and Islam becomes harder to hate or diss.

Tokita said:

If you do not consider Hadith, you would not know a lot about Muhammad, adopted son Zeid (only in Hadith and name only in the Quran), etc. Without Hadith you would have no Quran. Hadith was scrutinized wnd only what was accepted at the time was kept. Albukhary cleaned all of what was accepted at the time of Muhammad and rejected what was not accepted in his time claiming that it is offensive. Ibn Ishaq, which is earlier that Albukhary, was rejected as authentic.

Hadith: The Second Fundamental Source of Guidance

(An-Najm 53:3-4) (Muhammad) does not speak from his desires; indeed, what he says is revelation.

If the above Sura is true then everything reported in Hadith is true and from Allah. To Sunnis that is the case, to Shiia it is not true. Where is the blasphemy for Sunnis?

Only recently some Muslims began to reject part of the Hadith because of several offensive sayings.

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I believe that falls under the category of tradition. The Roman Catholic church has traditions about how the apostles died but there is only information about James in the Bible.

Tokita has very little to stand on without the Hadith, so give them a seat!

Thanks for the reply and your story. Before I begin, please know it is NEVER my intent to attack or insult you personally. I do sometimes go after beliefs, but it is not intended to denigrate you on a personal level. “Lord” knows we all have beliefs that are questionable to others. Further, as I tell my children, if I EVER say something that you think is wrong, I actively encourage you to call me out on it! One of my favorite quotes relating to business is, “If two people in a business always agree, one of them isn’t necessary!” Disagreements followed by civil discussion is where the real growth happens. As long as you can back your claims using Logic, Reason &/or Evidence (what a dub the “Secular Trinity”), I will be all ears! Now to the reply !

\\”The context is that he had a spiritual experience”\\ Without even knowing the person or the “experience”, I have little to no doubt that he truly experienced it. But sadly, his “experience” is irrelevant when it comes to the facts. It has been well established that the human brain is notoriously easy to trick, especially in times of stress. Quick side story I encountered reference “personal experience” [Feel free to skip to next paragraph if you choose with no hard feelings]; About 5 years ago, we had a guest pastor speak to the congregation (I go to church every week with my wife and 3 small children pending Covid restrictions). The pastor told us of a recent Missionary trip to Africa and he relayed the story that while in Africa (Kenya I believe), he awoke early one morning while it was still dark outside and there was a demon standing at the foot of his bed. This demon had paralyzed the pastor he couldn’t talk or move and the pastor “just knew” the demon was there to stop his good Missionary work. This pastor was a nice rational guy and I had no reason to believe he wasn’t telling the truth. Did he see I demon standing at the foot of his bed? I sincerely believe he absolutely did!!! But that’s not the relevant question is it?!? The question should be… WAS there a demon standing at the foot of his bed?!? I suspect NOT. Sleep paralysis is a common sleep disorder that cause paralysis as well as visual and sometimes auditory hallucinations. This pastor was in a foreign country eating strange foods in a religiously charged environment. Was there a demon standing at the foot of his bed… I doubt it… But in my 10 years plus of sincere discussion with theists, it always… ALWAYS circles back to “personal revelation” / “I just KNOW”. But it is also always single person. Never any witnesses… never anything other than personal hear-say.

Your story also starts out in a “religiously charged” time of life for you. And FTR, I am always hesitant to discuss religion / beliefs and point out where I feel they are wrong with individuals who are clinging to their beliefs for support. The last thing I want to do is tear down someone’s beliefs if that is all they have. FWIW, I did a little research into Baha'u'llah and agree 100% with the idea of universal peace and unity among all races, nations, and religions just as I have found many good teachings in most of the religions I have studied. However, NONE of the good teachings of any religion RELYS on religion! i.e. All of the teachings, “Do not kill”, “Do not steal”, “World Peace”, ad nauseum can be achieved from a secular angle and no gods are needed! I have asked this question and heard this question many times without a satisfactory… or any answer for that matter… What good thing can ONLY be done in the name of religion that cannot be done from a secular angle?

\\”I like talking to atheists because most of them are very sincere people, they just don't see any evidence for God. But also I have an atheist bent, although I never doubted God’s existence for one minute.“\\ Well I can’t speak for all atheists but agree, as a group, we are inherently curious with a heavy bent on skepticism and evidence. I enjoy talking with ANYONE as long as they are sincere and interested in a *conversation* as opposed to preaching. I too was an introvert my entire childhood through undergraduate schooling. I then went in the military for the college fund and was effectively taken out of my shell and have been an extrovert ever since… but I “get it”! I find it amazing that you have NEVER questioned god’s existence as there is so much to doubt! Do you agree that “a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”?!? How is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnisapient, omnipresent, omnitemporal, transcendent entity anything BUT “extraordinary”?!? And excuse me if I missed something, but it seems your soul reason for believing revolved around personal experience alone. Did I miss something. And not to put the cart before the horse but If it *is* just “personal experience”, what validates your personal experience about every other theists “personal experience” of a different religion / god?

I love reading and at work, typically have time to read between appointments so feel free to write as much as you want ! I do however tend to limit my screen time / social media to my work hours as when I am home, I try to spend the lion’s share of time with my wife and 3 awesome children ! Thanks again and hope you have a wonderful and safe weekend!!!

Thanks for the reply and your story. Before I begin, please know it is NEVER my intent to attack or insult you personally. I do sometimes go after beliefs, but it is not intended to denigrate you on a personal level. “Lord” knows we all have beliefs that are questionable to others. Further, as I tell my children, if I EVER say something that you think is wrong, I actively encourage you to call me out on it! One of my favorite quotes relating to business is, “If two people in a business always agree, one of them isn’t necessary!” Disagreements followed by civil discussion is where the real growth happens. As long as you can back your claims using Logic, Reason &/or Evidence (what a dub the “Secular Trinity”), I will be all ears! Now to the reply !

\\”The context is that he had a spiritual experience”\\ Without even knowing the person or the “experience”, I have little to no doubt that he truly experienced it. But sadly, his “experience” is irrelevant when it comes to the facts. It has been well established that the human brain is notoriously easy to trick, especially in times of stress. Quick side story I encountered reference “personal experience” [Feel free to skip to next paragraph if you choose with no hard feelings]; About 5 years ago, we had a guest pastor speak to the congregation (I go to church every week with my wife and 3 small children pending Covid restrictions). The pastor told us of a recent Missionary trip to Africa and he relayed the story that while in Africa (Kenya I believe), he awoke early one morning while it was still dark outside and there was a demon standing at the foot of his bed. This demon had paralyzed the pastor he couldn’t talk or move and the pastor “just knew” the demon was there to stop his good Missionary work. This pastor was a nice rational guy and I had no reason to believe he wasn’t telling the truth. Did he see I demon standing at the foot of his bed? I sincerely believe he absolutely did!!! But that’s not the relevant question is it?!? The question should be… WAS there a demon standing at the foot of his bed?!? I suspect NOT. Sleep paralysis is a common sleep disorder that cause paralysis as well as visual and sometimes auditory hallucinations. This pastor was in a foreign country eating strange foods in a religiously charged environment. Was there a demon standing at the foot of his bed… I doubt it… But in my 10 years plus of sincere discussion with theists, it always… ALWAYS circles back to “personal revelation” / “I just KNOW”. But it is also always single person. Never any witnesses… never anything other than personal hear-say.

Your story also starts out in a “religiously charged” time of life for you. And FTR, I am always hesitant to discuss religion / beliefs and point out where I feel they are wrong with individuals who are clinging to their beliefs for support. The last thing I want to do is tear down someone’s beliefs if that is all they have. FWIW, I did a little research into Baha'u'llah and agree 100% with the idea of universal peace and unity among all races, nations, and religions just as I have found many good teachings in most of the religions I have studied. However, NONE of the good teachings of any religion RELYS on religion! i.e. All of the teachings, “Do not kill”, “Do not steal”, “World Peace”, ad nauseum can be achieved from a secular angle and no gods are needed! I have asked this question and heard this question many times without a satisfactory… or any answer for that matter… What good thing can ONLY be done in the name of religion that cannot be done from a secular angle?

\\”I like talking to atheists because most of them are very sincere people, they just don't see any evidence for God. But also I have an atheist bent, although I never doubted God’s existence for one minute.“\\ Well I can’t speak for all atheists but agree, as a group, we are inherently curious with a heavy bent on skepticism and evidence. I enjoy talking with ANYONE as long as they are sincere and interested in a *conversation* as opposed to preaching. I too was an introvert my entire childhood through undergraduate schooling. I then went in the military for the college fund and was effectively taken out of my shell and have been an extrovert ever since… but I “get it”! I find it amazing that you have NEVER questioned god’s existence as there is so much to doubt! Do you agree that “a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”?!? How is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnisapient, omnipresent, omnitemporal, transcendent entity anything BUT “extraordinary”?!? And excuse me if I missed something, but it seems your soul reason for believing revolved around personal experience alone. Did I miss something. And not to put the cart before the horse but If it *is* just “personal experience”, what validates your personal experience about every other theists “personal experience” of a different religion / god?

I love reading and at work, typically have time to read between appointments so feel free to write as much as you want ! I do however tend to limit my screen time / social media to my work hours as when I am home, I try to spend the lion’s share of time with my wife and 3 awesome children ! Thanks again and hope you have a wonderful and safe weekend!!!

Arthur P. Dent said:

I find it amazing that you have NEVER questioned god’s existence as there is so much to doubt! Do you agree that “a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”?!? How is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnisapient, omnipresent, omnitemporal, transcendent entity anything BUT “extraordinary”?!? And excuse me if I missed something, but it seems your soul reason for believing revolved around personal experience alone. Did I miss something. And not to put the cart before the horse but If it *is* just “personal experience”, what validates your personal experience about every other theists “personal experience” of a different religion / god?

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If you do not mind, I am skimming over your post for now and picking out parts I feel are most important to reply to first. I get so many posts on this forum that I normally spend all my waking hours when not working at my day job on this forum! But I promise you won't get lost in the shuffle, IF you want to continue this dialogue.

No, personal experience is not how I came to believe in the Baha'i Faith (or in God) and that is not why I still believe in them both. It is ALL because if the evidence. In fact, i have some issues with God so many times I have told my husband I wish God did not exist so I would not have to believe in Him, not because if the requirements of belief such as adhering to the Laws, but because I cannot believe that God is All-Loving the way Christians and other Baha'is believe. Also, some of the requirements of Baha'is are a bit difficult to live up to if one takes it seriously, as I do, since that is the kind of person I am.

I believe that I have extraordinary evidence of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and transcendent deity. I do not question God's existence because I do not question that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger (Manifestation) of God. I am 100% certain of that.

I came to that conclusion via logic, not emotion. As I said above, if I had my druthers I would not believe in God at all, but that is me speaking from emotion, not logic, because it makes no logical sense to disbelieve in a God I have evidence for, not only because of possible consequences in this life, but even more importantly, because of consequences in the afterlife, which I normally refer to as the next life because I believe it is simply a continuation of this life.

DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan said:

Tokita has very little to stand on without the Hadith, so give them a seat!

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I believe the problem is that many Hadiths are in error and have a questionable source. From reading them it becomes obvious that they are not the word of God.

Muffled said:

I believe the problem is that many Hadiths are in error and have a questionable source. From reading them it becomes obvious that they are not the word of God.

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I agree.

Good Afternoon Trailblazer! My daughters have friends over so I thought I'd catch up here !

I am trying the "multi quote" feature and hopefully don't mess it up too bad. Still a "noob" when it comes to this particular forum.

Trailblazer said:

I do not question God's existence because I do not question that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger (Manifestation) of God. I am 100% certain of that.

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Trailblazer said:

because of consequences in the afterlife

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Trailblazer said:

it makes no logical sense to disbelieve in a God I have evidence for

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OK. We have established you are "100% certain" your version of god exists and I agree, it this is true it is a very important questions as it potentially impacts my "eternal" life. Further, you apparently have "evidence" for this god so I a m simply asking, what is this evidence if not personal experience as you claim? If you have multiple pieces of evidence, I would ask you start with your MOST compelling and ardent piece of evidence so we can examen that first.

Lastly, I am always interested in a good conversation but like you, have many demands on my time so it may be several days between posts. No worries in taking your time as well.

Arthur P. Dent said:

Good Afternoon Trailblazer! My daughters have friends over so I thought I'd catch up here !

I am trying the "multi quote" feature and hopefully don't mess it up too bad. Still a "noob" when it comes to this particular forum.

OK. We have established you are "100% certain" your version of god exists and I agree, it this is true it is a very important questions as it potentially impacts my "eternal" life. Further, you apparently have "evidence" for this god so I a m simply asking, what is this evidence if not personal experience as you claim? If you have multiple pieces of evidence, I would ask you start with your MOST compelling and ardent piece of evidence so we can examen that first.

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I just posted you on the other thread what I believe is the evidence that supports the claims of Baha'u'llah.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Since you are the seeker, I suggest you pick the category of evidence that would be most compelling to you and we can discuss it further.

Arthur P. Dent said:

Lastly, I am always interested in a good conversation but like you, have many demands on my time so it may be several days between posts. No worries in taking your time as well.

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I fully understand that. I tend to answer as soon as I can and I usually do if the post is short, because I am home all the time and I can usually find time for the shorter posts. But if a post is longer and more involved, it might take me a few days to respond.

P.S. I never even tried to negotiate the multi-quote feature and I have been here for three years! I just never seem to have time to learn it so I do things the way that takes the least amount of time.

Wolf Spirit said:

Hello,

I am interested in finding out why Muslims believe Islam is the right religion, and discussing these points.
Alternatively, non-Muslims who have an idea as to why Muslims have this belief.

There are almost 2 billion Muslims, so there must be a reason they believe, however I have searched many different places and can’t find a reason I can accept.

Any reasons welcome, but especially if anyone has reasons which are more uncommon, as I have looked at the more common ones already.

This is coming from a Christian standpoint.

Thank you.

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Islam reforms Christianity and the Second Coming- the Promised Messiah 1835-1908 has come in Islam rather than Christianity, from the Christian standpoint it is a valid point of being truthful, I undertand. Right, friend, please?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

Islam reforms Christianity and the Second Coming- the Promised Messiah 1835-1908 has come in Islam rather than Christianity, from the Christian standpoint it is a valid point of being truthful, I undertand. Right, friend, please?

Regards

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Right for only those who believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the Messiah.

paarsurrey said:

Islam reforms Christianity and the Second Coming- the Promised Messiah 1835-1908 has come in Islam rather than Christianity, from the Christian standpoint it is a valid point of being truthful, I undertand. Right, friend, please?

Regards

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It is right only if Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad actually is the Second Coming and the Promised Messiah. What evidence do you have that proves that he was the Messiah? His claim is not evidence because anyone can claim to be the Second Coming and the Promised Messiah and many, many men have made such claims. A dead giveaway that he is not who he claimed to be is that he fulfilled no Bible prophecies for the return of Christ or the Messiah.