Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

lostwanderingsoul · Jul 23, 2020

Nova2216 said:
I will tell you what concerns me.

I have heard this argument in religious discussions before on other topics.

The person will say, they want to see "ALL THE GOSPEL IN ONLY ONE SCRIPTURE".

I would be willing to give it to them in just such a fashion IF, IF, IF the Lord had put in all in only one scripture.

HE DID NOT.

I DO NOT KNOW WHY.

(Deut.29:29)

OK, I got it. I just wonder why it is so important that the church and kingdom must be the same thing. Would it really make any difference if Jesus was the head of the church and the king of the kingdom and the two were not the same? Why is this so important?

Nova2216 · Jul 23, 2020

lostwanderingsoul said:
OK, I got it. I just wonder why it is so important that the church and kingdom must be the same thing. Would it really make any difference if Jesus was the head of the church and the king of the kingdom and the two were not the same? Why is this so important?

Truth is consistent.

Truth always harmonizes

Truth sanctifies and cleanses the soul of sin (Jn 17:17).

But if truth is polluted it loses it's cleansing POWER. (this is dangerous).(Mt.22:29)

One way to tell if I am thinking incorrectly about the word of God is I will pit a scripture (or more) against other scriptures.

Some people have the idea this is the norm but it is actually a red flag we are opposing God.

I cannot on one hand contend the kingdom has been established in the first century and also contend the kingdom will be established in the future. Those two views oppose one another and cannot possibly be true.

In light of (Col.1:13) and the other scriptures we have studied together (you and I) the scriptures declare the kingdom was established in Jerusalem (Luke 24:44-49), on the day of Pentecost, and it came with POWER during the lives of the apostles (Acts 1:5,8) (Mark 9:1).

One must be in one camp or the other.

1. The kingdom was established in the 1st century (Col.1:13)

OR

2. The kingdom will be established in our future.

It cannot be both.

lostwanderingsoul · Jul 23, 2020

Nova2216 said:
Truth is consistent.

Truth always harmonizes

Truth sanctifies and cleanses the soul of sin (Jn 17:17).

But if truth is polluted it loses it's cleansing POWER. (this is dangerous).(Mt.22:29)

One way to tell if I am thinking incorrectly about the word of God is I will pit a scripture (or more) against other scriptures.

Some people have the idea this is the norm but it is actually a red flag we are opposing God.

I cannot on one hand contend the kingdom has been established in the first century and also contend the kingdom will be established in the future. Those two views oppose one another and cannot possibly be true.

In light of (Col.1:13) and the other scriptures we have studied together (you and I) the scriptures declare the kingdom was established in Jerusalem (Luke 24:44-49), on the day of Pentecost, and it came with POWER during the lives of the apostles (Acts 1:5,8) (Mark 9:1).

Please keep going. I still do not see why it is so pmportant for the church and kingdom to be the same.

One must be in one camp or the other.

1. The kingdom was established in the 1st century (Col.1:13)

OR

2. The kingdom will be established in our future.

It cannot be both.

Nova2216 · Jul 23, 2020

The Kingdom and the Church

(excerpt)

Because the word "church" and the word "kingdom" do not mean the same it does not necessarily follow that they are not the same thing. Words may signify different meanings yet refer to the same institution. The words "church" and "body" have different meanings, yet the church is called "the body" of Christ (Ephesians 1:22). The church is also called the "house of God" (I Timothy 3:15), a "temple" (I Corinthians 3:17), "building" (Ephesians 2:21), and "household" (Ephesians 2:19). These various terms emphasize different features of the church -- its family, worship, fellowship features, etc. Likewise when the church is called a kingdom its governmental feature is brought into prominence.

When the church and kingdom are studied they are found to agree in the following particulars: 1) The source of authority or the Head, 2) the laws, 3) the subjects, and 4) the territory. As observed above each of these is an essential element to the kingdom's existence. It can also be seen that the church has these same essential points.

Read more here.

The Church Is the Kingdom

lostwanderingsoul · Jul 23, 2020

Nova2216 said:
The Kingdom and the Church

(excerpt)

Because the word "church" and the word "kingdom" do not mean the same it does not necessarily follow that they are not the same thing. Words may signify different meanings yet refer to the same institution. The words "church" and "body" have different meanings, yet the church is called "the body" of Christ (Ephesians 1:22). The church is also called the "house of God" (I Timothy 3:15), a "temple" (I Corinthians 3:17), "building" (Ephesians 2:21), and "household" (Ephesians 2:19). These various terms emphasize different features of the church -- its family, worship, fellowship features, etc. Likewise when the church is called a kingdom its governmental feature is brought into prominence.

When the church and kingdom are studied they are found to agree in the following particulars: 1) The source of authority or the Head, 2) the laws, 3) the subjects, and 4) the territory. As observed above each of these is an essential element to the kingdom's existence. It can also be seen that the church has these same essential points.

Read more here.

The Church Is the Kingdom

OK but why is this so important. What is the next step? There must be some point to saying they are the same. Is it really important?

Nova2216 · Jul 23, 2020

lostwanderingsoul said:
OK but why is this so important. What is the next step? There must be some point to saying they are the same. Is it really important?

YES.

There may be many reasons why people teach Premillenialism. One obvious reason I have noticed is they seem to think this gives people another chance to be saved. If they do not obey the truth in this age, well they get another chance to be right with God in the next age. The problem is there will be no other age according to the teachings of Jesus. Sadly the people who believe this doctrine will not realize it until it is too late.

The next step would be to make sure I am in the kingdom presently.

This means I want to be sure I have done what the bible says I "MUST DO" to be saved.

Paul was told there was something he "MUST DO" (Acts 9:6).

Ac 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Sadly today most religious people are teaching we NEED NOT DO ANYTHING TO BE SAVED.

If you want we can do this next part through private email.

I have a few questions for you.

1. Are you saved?

2. How were you saved?

3. How old were when you were saved?

4. Were you baptized?

5. Why were you baptized?

6. What were you baptized in?

7. Were you saved before or after baptism?

Nova2216 · Jul 24, 2020

Believe + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:16)

Repent + Converted = Sins Blotted Out (Acts 3:19)

Arise + Be Baptized = Wash Away Your Sins (Acts 22:16)

lostwanderingsoul · Jul 24, 2020

Nova2216 said:
Believe + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:16)

Repent + Converted = Sins Blotted Out (Acts 3:19)

Arise + Be Baptized = Wash Away Your Sins (Acts 22:16)

I am not quite ready for private email. Let me first go back to something we were talking about a while back. Believe + Baptism + Saved People who lived before Jesus had no way to believe and be baptised. They are all lost forever? Millions of people who lived since Jesus never heard about believing or baptism. They are all lost forever? God says He is not willing that any should perish. But those who never heard what they need to do will be punished. I think God will give everyone an equal chance. How? I am not sure. But eternal punishment because you never knew what you needed to do is not right and not something a loving God would do.

Nova2216 · Jul 24, 2020

lostwanderingsoul said:
I am not quite ready for private email. Let me first go back to something we were talking about a while back. Believe + Baptism + Saved People who lived before Jesus had no way to believe and be baptised. They are all lost forever? Millions of people who lived since Jesus never heard about believing or baptism. They are all lost forever? God says He is not willing that any should perish. But those who never heard what they need to do will be punished. I think God will give everyone an equal chance. How? I am not sure. But eternal punishment because you never knew what you needed to do is not right and not something a loving God would do.

No, those living under the OT Law had no idea of Christ and His plan to save people under the NT (church / kingdom) age. Those in OT times were saved like Noah (Gen. 6:8,22). People today are saved by the same PRINCIPLE. (Mt.28:18-20) (Mt.7:21) (1Peter 1:22,23) (2Thess.1:7-9) (Mark 16:15,16) (Heb 5:9 ; 11:6)

Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

lostwanderingsoul · Jul 24, 2020

Nova2216 said:
No, those living under the OT Law had no idea of Christ and His plan to save people under the NT (church / kingdom) age. Those in OT times were saved like Noah (Gen. 6:8,22). People today are saved by the same PRINCIPLE. (Mt.28:18-20) (Mt.7:21) (1Peter 1:22,23) (2Thess.1:7-9) (Mark 16:15,16) (Heb 5:9 ; 11:6)

Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Well you see, now it gets complicated. You say that Believe and be Baptized is the way to be saved. But it now sounds like that is not the only way. If you lived in OT times you were under different rules. And in NT times you can be saved by doing the will of the Father. So different people have different ways to salvation. Still not fair. Everyone should be under the same rules. God is not a respecter of persons so He must treat everyone equally. Not different rules for different people.

Nova2216 · Jul 24, 2020

lostwanderingsoul said:
Well you see, now it gets complicated. You say that Believe and be Baptized is the way to be saved. But it now sounds like that is not the only way. If you lived in OT times you were under different rules. And in NT times you can be saved by doing the will of the Father. So different people have different ways to salvation. Still not fair. Everyone should be under the same rules. God is not a respecter of persons so He must treat everyone equally. Not different rules for different people.

2 Covenants (OT / NT)

Two different ways of serving God.

Those in OT times are subject only to the OT Law.

Those in NT times are only subject to NT Law.

The cross of Christ stands between the two covenants.(Rom.10:4) (Heb. 7:12 ; 8:6-13 ; 9:15-17 ; 10:9,10) (Col.2:14-17) (Eph.2:14-17)

lostwanderingsoul · Jul 24, 2020

Nova2216 said:
2 Covenants (OT / NT)

Two different ways of serving God.

Those in OT times are subject only to the OT Law.

Those in NT times are only subject to NT Law.

The cross of Christ stands between the two covenants.(Rom.10:4) (Heb. 7:12 ; 8:6-13 ; 9:15-17 ; 10:9,10) (Col.2:14-17) (Eph.2:14-17)

Bottom line - there are two ways to get saved. Second bottom line - those in NT times who never heard of Jesus never had a chance. God treats people different. Not right.

Nova2216 · Jul 25, 2020

lostwanderingsoul said:
Bottom line - there are two ways to get saved. Second bottom line - those in NT times who never heard of Jesus never had a chance. God treats people different. Not right.

You can look at it in that fashion if you want.

Nova2216 · Jul 25, 2020

(Titus 2:11,12) Helps to teach us how God saves men by GRACE.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation

hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us

that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,

we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

(Titus 2:11,12) shows how grace and mens obedience is married together to save man. (Heb.5:9 ; 11:6)

If man is not thinking and doing what God commands him to do man is not saved by GRACE.

We see this in Noah (Gen. 6:8,22), Naaman (2 Kings 5), The Jews (Acts 2:38,47), The Gentiles (Acts 10:48), The Samaritans (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40), The Corinthians (Acts 18:8), The Ephesians (Acts 19:1-6) and Paul in (Acts 22:16).

lostwanderingsoul · Jul 25, 2020

Nova2216 said:
(Titus 2:11,12) Helps to teach us how God saves men by GRACE.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation

hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us

that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,

we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

(Titus 2:11,12) shows how grace and mens obedience is married together to save man. (Heb.5:9 ; 11:6)

If man is not thinking and doing what God commands him to do man is not saved by GRACE.

We see this in Noah (Gen. 6:8,22), Naaman (2 Kings 5), The Jews (Acts 2:38,47), The Gentiles (Acts 10:48), The Samaritans (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40), The Corinthians (Acts 18:8), The Ephesians (Acts 19:1-6) and Paul in (Acts 22:16).

I hope you can see how confusing this gets. Most Christians says that only Jesus can save you. Then we said a few posts back that belief and baptism equals salvation. Now grace and obedience leads to salvation. I believe God has ONE road to salvation and that road will be available for every person to see and follow. I just have not decided exactly what that one road is. But I cannot believe that different people are saved in different ways. That includes those born in places or times when they never had a chance to hear and learn about God or Jesus or the Bible. They must have ab equal chance at salvation.

lostwanderingsoul · Jul 25, 2020

For several days this has been a discussion between just two people. Surely someone is at least reading some of these posts. Their comments and ideas are welcome and may add understanding to the subject. Anyone out there?

Muffled · Jul 27, 2020

lostwanderingsoul said:
Was there a gospel before the time of Christ? If the gospel saves then everyone before the time of Christ is lost. Is that what you believe? Your answers are never "yes" or "no". I do not see what Jesus going willingly to the cross has to do with the fate of people who never heard of him.

I believe in reincarnation and that everyone has heard the gospel.

Muffled · Jul 27, 2020

Nova2216 said:
There is only one way to be saved. (Acts 4:l2)

I think that means there is only one religion.

(Jn 14:6) - I am the way,the truth and the life and no man cometh to the father except by me.

(Prov.14:12) - There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death

I believe there are many religions but only one where a person can be saved.

Muffled · Jul 27, 2020

Nova2216 said:
Actually those who would be responsible are those ancestors who long ago should have taught their children about God and His ways (Jn 6:44,45) (Jn 3:19-21) (1Jn 2:3-6). God made this world and then provided a plan for all to be saved. Sadly many reject truth (Jn 12:48). That which they reject is the only thing which has the power to save them (Jn 17:17) (Rom.1:16) (1Peter 1:22,23).

God is JUST. He is not going to save some people one way and save other people another way.

God is no respecter of persons (Rom.2:11)

I believe I don't agree. I believe Islam is the final objective but with a long course. Here and Now it takes receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior because time is short. Both do not work perfectly. We get perfection in The Kingdom of God when it comes.

Nova2216 · Jul 27, 2020

Muffled said:
I believe I don't agree. I believe Islam is the final objective but with a long course. Here and Now it takes receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior because time is short. Both do not work perfectly. We get perfection in The Kingdom of God when it comes.

The Kingdom was established in the first century. (Col. 1:13)

You can only place people into something which exist.

Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

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