sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Uh huh. And yet the Apostolic leadership of the RCC recognize the Anglicans as valid. what about the orthodox?
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The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?
- Thread starter firedragon
- Start date
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
exchemist right you are... I know nothing about you! I do know the scriptures! Question do you believe the scriptures? Jesus said; "I am with you ALWAYS to the very end of Time/World!" Do you believe these words of God (above)? These Scriptures!?You are making this up. How can you know what I disagree with, when you know nothing about what I think?
I have said nothing about "my church" forming anything anew, or about churches being lost or found.
None of this makes any sense at all to me.
Are you a crank of some sort?
If you do believe these words of Jesus, you would be asking yourself: If Jesus never left his bride, if Jesus never left his body.. If Satan did NOT overpower Jesus and take Jesus' body from Jesus then his body does NOT need to be re-Formed!
exchemist If Jesus is ALWAYS with his body his Holy Church then he cannot be with any of the thousands of man made bodies today; thousands and thousands of these man made bodies all claiming to have the only truth but not even two believe the same things! Again I say it... To be protestant you are forced to reject the scriptures the JW's are only one example!
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
Yes it is about the JW's they are anti-Catholic! They have placed their salvation in the teachings of Arius! As mentioned earlier Arius WAS a Catholic he WAS among Catholics until he was removed as A False teacher!
Scripture Prophesy holds true... "From AMONG you will come False teachers"!
Terry Sampson Catholics were NOT Among Aries he was AMONG Catholics! This prophesy proves true Arius was condemned and removed from AMONG the only Church Jesus founded as a False Teacher a Heretic! YES..... This thread is about the JW's!!
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
Anglicans are Christians! They have roots going back to King Henry they are NOW outside of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church!
Orthodox have roots back to the Apostles they are Apostolic they have Bishops with Authority also this the authority to TEACH and PREACH!! The Pope is also a Bishop with roots going back to Peter the Key Holder the first Shepherd of God' flock! The Pope has direct linage back to Peter and to Jesus! The Orthodox believe the same things as Catholics!
sojourner to be Anglican you must reject the scriptures... Not all the words of God only those words you don't like! Example.... "I am with you ALWAYS to the end of the world"! To believe these words of Jesus you must reject the Church King Henry started!
Differences in beliefs and personal interpretations were never allowed...not in ancient Judaism and not in first century Christianity. (Deuteronomy 4:39-40; 2 John 10-11)
It was always a case of “shape up or ship out”. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)
The final judgment by Jesus as judge will settle things once and for all....most are going to be in for a bit of a shock apparently. (Matthew 7:14-14; 21-23) Now is a good time to examine whether we are actually following Christ, or some concoction of our own invention.....
You know that the one thing that JW’s usually hear from believers more than anything is....”I have my own religion”.....which we respect because everyone must make their own choices in such an important decision.....but many of those people actually mean it. They have their very own religion, choosing some things to believe and other things to reject. They have been ‘shopping’ in the great celestial supermarket, and their basket is full of all the things that they want to believe.....but is that what Christianity means? Who said that was OK?
exchemist
Veteran Member
I take lessons from the scriptures, certainly, but I do not believe anything in the bible blindly. I find what Jesus says about being with the disciples (=us?) to the end of time very consoling.
But why all this about Protestants, suddenly? It really is very hard to fathom what you are on about.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The Apostolic Authorities say that they are valid.
Uh, no. Remember the Schism of 1054? Remember the big fight over the Filioque Clause? No, they don't believe the same things -- and they date Easter differently from the Roman Church.
Not true.
Henry didn't "start" the Church. The Anglican bishops merely rejected Rome's authority over them, but they were still bishops in the Apostolic Succession -- just as Constantinople -- so they still had Apostolic authority. Your history is lacking. And 3 of these bishops consecrated Seabury in America, so the ECUSA is likewise valid.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
of course they were. Judaism had its legitimate sects. Christianity's beliefs varied widely in the beginning. Even in the Bible we find that Paul's churches were at odds with the Church in Jerusalem over the issue of circumcision. No, I'm afraid you're mistaken.
...But that's not divisive in the least, or exclusive. Divisiveness and exclusivity are not Biblical tenets.
We don't know what Christ taught, except through the mouths of other people.
Yes. Christianity is diverse, as the world is diverse.
I would just like to address this comment. Being anti-Catholic is not what we are.....we are “anti” anything that is a departure from what Jesus, (as head of his “church”) taught and promoted.
History is an important component in this......what is the history of the “church”?
Arianism was a “Christian” movement of the fourth century that denied the divinity of Jesus Christ. Arius taught that God is unbegotten and without a beginning. The Son, because he is begotten, cannot be God in the same sense that the Father is. The Son did not exist from all eternity but was created and exists by the will of the Father. In that belief he was biblically correct.
Like the rest of the trinity doctrine, these teachings arose over 300 years after the death of Jesus Christ. What took place in the meantime? What happened between the first century and the fourth? This is important.
He was one who saw that Jesus Christ was not Almighty God.....and the scriptures back up that position. JW’s however are not Arians. We know the God of the Bible, who was also the God of Jesus Christ. (John 17:3)
How far back do we need to go for that scripture to apply? Do you honestly believe that Christian teachings originated in Constantine’s fusion of apostate Christianity and Roman sun worship? The 4th century is the birth of Christendom, a completely corrupted form of Christianity that was foretold by Jesus and his apostles....I don’t believe that you have gone back far enough. Apostasy was already snapping at the heels of the apostles towards the end of the first century, but they were acting as a restraint against it until the completion of the Christian scriptures, the last of which were written by the apostle John.
Once that restraint was removed, (when all the apostles were dead) Christianity began to be corrupted by men seeking to promote their own ideas and introducing all manner of unchristian doctrines...the “weeds” of Jesus’ parable.
By the time Constantine mandated his state religion, Christianity was already dead in the water....ripe for all the unchristian teachings and festivals that were adopted. So from the historical perspective, Roman Catholicism is the ‘mother’ of the foretold apostasy. The bulk of Catholic beliefs originate in ancient Babylon....not from the teachings of Jesus.
Yes, and it pays to do your research. Arius was condemned for speaking the truth. We all know what the church did to ‘heretics’. The Inquisition was a great deterrent.
Constantine defeated his last remaining rival, Licinius, and became the undisputed ruler of the Roman world. In 325 C.E., as yet unbaptized, he presided over the first great ecumenical council of the “Christian” church, which condemned Arianism and drew up a statement of essential beliefs called the Nicene Creed.
The virtual founder of the Roman church was not even a baptized Christian. He was a worshipper of Zeus who turned Jesus Christ into the god he worshipped.
Roman sun worship is seen clearly in Catholic worship....the most visible being the obelisk in St Peter’s Square, which was transported from Egypt as a symbol of the Egyptian sun god Ra. Why is it even there?
Your assumption that the Catholic Church is a continuation of what Jesus began is far from the truth. Their departures would be a long list of things that Christ never taught....things that you have been taught as truth find no support in scripture at all.
I only hope you can do some research on the history of the Roman church and its beliefs and see for yourself that your faith (admirable as it may be) is not well founded.
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sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Plus there are several different canons of scripture between the several confessing churches.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
Deeje I hope all is well... Jesus formed his Church on Rock! He made Peter his Shepherd and he gave Peter his keys a symbol of Authority!
Your words... Constantine mandated his state religion, Christianity was already dead in the water!! I reply ... Who said the Church failed? NOT the scriptures! The Scriptures tell you the Church has the AUTHORITY to teach all nations that Jesus is ALWAYS with hs Church to the end of time!
The Church was given an ADVOCATE to Guide her into all truth... To be with her FOREVER!! Again I must point out to be "JW" you must reject the scriptures! To be in Protestant against the Holy Catholic Church you MUST reject the scriptures!
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
Deeje Do you see it? FOREVER!
You claim the Catholic Church made stuff up that is not scriptural??? FACT: The Holy Catholic Church NONE OTHER made the bible! She alone with the help of the Holy Spirit decided the truly inspired manuscripts weeding out the phony ones! There are no scriptures telling you what scriptures are God inspired! Even if they did say "this is inspired" the phony ones would also say they were inspired! The Catholic Church NONE Other was the AUTHORITY that tells you they are inspired! You use a corrupted bible with over four hundred changes.... THINK... How come all the other scripture interpreters (over sixty) do not have what your bible contains!? LOGIC ALONE should tell you your NWT is wrong!
Arius was removed as a false teacher... History proves he was a Catholic he was removed from the ONLY Church Jesus established!
Ignatius of Antioch said this in 110 A.D.
“Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
Deeje Did you see it? "Just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church”!!
The Martyrdom of Polycarp 155 A.D.
“And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).
Tertullian 200 A.D.
“Where was [the heretic] Marcion, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago—in the reign of Antonius for the most part—and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherius, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 30 [A.D. 200]).
Cyprian of Carthage A.D. 253
“You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishops; and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priest of God, believing that they are secretly in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and catholic, is not split or divided, but is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere to one another” (Letters 66[67]:8 [A.D. 253]).
Council of Nicaea I
“But those who say: ‘There was [a time] when he [the Son] was not,’ and ‘before he was born, he was not,’ and ‘because he was made from non-existing matter, he is either of another substance or essence,’ and those who call ‘God the Son of God changeable and mutable,’ these the Catholic Church anathematizes” (Appendix to the Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]).
Deeje So much for being dead in the water!!!!! You have been taught LIES by the Watch Tower! Jesus is ALWAYS with his Church he never left her!
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Not quite true. Arianism maintains the divinity of Jesus, but asserts that Jesus is not Deity.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
Hello sojourner I hope all is well... I reply! The Orthodox are Apostolic the Anglicans are NOT! 1054 they left the Catholic Church in a dispute still the truth of scriptures remain with them!
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Not quite true. yes, the Church established the canon by 450 C.E., but it was not exclusively the RCC who did that work. It was also the work of the Orthodox churches (the Schism had not yet occurred). So, to be precise, it was the catholic Church that produced the canon, and not the Roman Catholic Church.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Nope. The Anglican bishops were in the Apostolic succession, just as were the Orthodox. The schism of 1054 was a mutual schism between Rome and Constantinople, and both bishops simultaneously excommunicated the other. The Orthodox did not "leave the Catholic Church." There was no "Catholic Church" until the schism was complete. There was the Church. The RCC has no more claim on historical legitimacy than either the Orthodox, the Copts, the Anglicans, or any other manifestation of the confessing Church in the apostolic Succession.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
The bishops were in Apostolic succession until they died! The branch was cut off! They have NO ROOTS anymore back to the Apostles! As soon as the Anglican church made woman priests all hope of reuniting with Rome was lost! The Anglican church drifts ever further from Rome!
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
FACT: The Pope closed the Canon!!! It was the Catholic Church none other! Jerome was not in agreement, he accepted the Canon also! If the Holy Spirit helped in deciding the inspired works don't you think he would not stick around and help interpret the same manuscripts??! The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church headed by Peters successor is guided into all truth - FOREVER!
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Of course they still have roots, same as everyone else! The roots are still there, female ordinations notwithstanding.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
FACT: The Bishop of Rome closed the Roman canon. There are also Eastern canons that he did not close. The Roman canon is not the only canon -- nor is it the only legitimate canon.
ManSinha
Well-Known Member
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