Little known about interior of earth

dad · Jul 21, 2020

halbhh said:
Perhaps my fault (partly) but you've ended up telling me things where we already agreed. Definitely the spirits in prison were in a place in some sense, but I don't think it was in a physical location under the Earth's surface unless it happened to be in another dimension.

Bingo. Housing spirits would involve some sort of spiritual accommodation (or dimension). That seems to indicate that there is a spiritual component to the interior of the earth. That means that theories based only on the physical would be wrong.

Yes, all the bible says exists does exist, every last thing, but also some of it isn't in a realm we know much about.

We don't need to know about the realm. What is known is that a realm exists down under this earth.

Nor of a nature we know much about. That 'pit' isn't a physical pit on Earth is my bet, though it's definitely a pit.

Everything spoken of in that part of Revelation deals in real things. A real world, real people,

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

So you need the trees and grass and earth and men and smoke all not be real is you claim the bottomless pit was not.

dad · Jul 21, 2020

Mestemia said:
What is it that YOU claim?

I don't need a claim God already told us what happened. Those who have science claims that say something opposite of this need to support them.

Except they are not "belief based".
They are evidence based.

You have not been down under the earth thousands of miles. Face it. The seismic waves do not tell us whether there is spiritual material down there. For all we know one type of sesmic wave might not be able to go through spiritual material?! Ha. So when it gets to the core, and can't get through, science would assume it was liquid, since on the surface here, that type of wave cannot penetrate liquids. Who really knows? Of course your claims about the center of the earth are faith based.

Do you really honestly think that science does not know the limitations of science?

If they did, we would not have the BB theory, and TOE, and wild tales of the far universe and the center of the earth! No they do not know.

dad · Jul 21, 2020

lewisnotmiller said:
On the makeup of the center of the Earth?
I would suggest believing neither, but you can do whatever the heck you like.

At some point you might wonder why you're so determined to put words in my mouth, incidentally.

If you are not talking about the topic here, you should let us know.

You said this
"It seemed preferable to chicken entrails as a way of trying to determine what's down there."

I assumed you were referring to the topic and the way science tries to learn about the center of the planet. I do not accept that they can learn about the interior of the earth. So I do not find it better than tea leaf reading, or chicken innards or whatever.

blü 2 · Jul 21, 2020

dad said:
Much of the information about what is under the earth comes from seismic waves. Among the assumptions inherent in this method is the assumption that the laws and realities on the surface is identical to whatever is deep in the earth. Unless this was true, we basically know almost nothing about what is actually down there.

From a biblical perspective the descriptions of the interior of this world are pregnant with references to spirits. There is a spiritual component as well as a physical component to what is down there according to Scripture. Science deals only in the physical, and has modelled as if the physical were the only reality involved with 'under the earth'.

Looking at what was learned from the deepest hole ever dug, we find that expectations/predictions of science models were shattered in some areas.

Example:

"While data produced by the Kola drilling project continues to be analyzed, the drilling itself was forced to stop in the early 1990s when unexpectedly high temperatures were encountered. While the temperature gradient conformed to predictions down to a depth of about 10,000 feet, temperatures after this point increased at a higher rate until they reached 180 °C (or 356 °F) at the bottom of the hole. This was a drastic difference from the expected 100 °C (212 °F)."

"..One of the most surprising findings was the absence of the transition from granite to basalt, which scientists had long expected to exist between three and six kilometers below the surface."

Though the discontinuity has been detected beneath all of the continents, the drill at Kola never encountered the proposed layer of basalt. Instead, the granitic rock was found to extend beyond the twelve kilometer point.

Kola Superdeep Borehole

We should question everything science told us about what is beneath the earth, including the hot core claims.

Yeah, what them scientists say is all baloney.

You and I know the center of the earth is, to say the least, hot as Hell, and stuffed full of the sinful souls of everyone who ever disagreed with us, or would have disagreed with us, when they were alive, and these are deservedly and satisfyingly taunted, burnt, pierced, sliced, torn, and otherwise treated inconsiderately by demons, imps, devils, ghouls, and oh so much more, without hope of relief before eternity rolls round.

The lake of fire blah blah, it's all there in Revelation and therefore infallibly true (and rumors that John of Patmos was a nutcase are just badmouthing by jealous Christians who wish they'd thought of it first).

That's what's inside the earth, right down to the midpoint (where the squeeze is really on).

halbhh · Jul 21, 2020

dad said:
Bingo. Housing spirits would involve some sort of spiritual accommodation (or dimension). That seems to indicate that there is a spiritual component to the interior of the earth. That means that theories based only on the physical would be wrong.

We don't need to know about the realm. What is known is that a realm exists down under this earth.
Everything spoken of in that part of Revelation deals in real things. A real world, real people,

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

So you need the trees and grass and earth and men and smoke all not be real is you claim the bottomless pit was not.

So, having agreed on some things that actually matter (not details about the physical Earth, but some things that actually matter spiritually), the disagreement we have here in this particular thread is regarding the unusual (very rare or possibly unique?) views in the OP about the physical Earth being a habitat in the interior for spirits.

Regarding the unusual (very rare or just new) idea that spirits are literally inside the interior of the Earth, literally.

And I've laid out in contrast some of the actual meanings of those 4 verses you cited, if you read --

Post #30 --

The wonderful meanings of those 4 verses aren't about the literal interior of the Earth, but are about truly amazing and interesting and meaningful things --

As briefly laid out in post #30.

lewisnotmiller · Jul 22, 2020

dad said:
If you are not talking about the topic here, you should let us know.

No problems. But I am talking about the topic, at least based on my interpretation of the OP.

dad said:
You said this
"It seemed preferable to chicken entrails as a way of trying to determine what's down there."

Indeed I did, and I firmly stand by that apparently controversial position.

dad said:
I assumed you were referring to the topic and the way science tries to learn about the center of the planet. I do not accept that they can learn about the interior of the earth. So I do not find it better than tea leaf reading, or chicken innards or whatever.

Let's look at this with my serious face on for a second. Let's allow for a moment that even an educated guess by science currently is worth nothing more than chicken innards. Let's assume it is of absolutely no value at all.
Even then, whatever peg they have placed in the proverbial sand serves as an initial hypothesis which can in time be falsified. Perhaps, as you suggest, we can't make the least headway on this today. Perhaps it is ten years away before we can even incrementally move from 'complete bald-arsed guess', to 'complete bald-arsed guess with some small piece of information better indentified'.

That would represent a tiny, incremental improvement over a long period. Meanwhile, the chicken innards haven't added anything to the conversation or become in the least bit 'more accurate'.
Science is a process allowing evidence to be tested, and hypothesis to be falsified. And if the first 100 hypothesis are all complete rubbish, and each one is eventually proven somewhat or totally inaccurate then...we've still learnt something.

Twilight Hue · Jul 22, 2020

It might come as a surprise to some people that we know a lot more about the interior of the earth and its core more than one would think.

How we know what lies at Earth's core

We may not have arrived at the core of the Earth ourselves, but we certainly have sent waves that most certainly did arrive there and has given us quite an astounding picture as well as new speculations.

dad · Jul 22, 2020

blü 2 said:
Yeah, what them scientists say is all baloney.

False, science knows a fair bit. What it says about what it doesn't know is as you describe though, of course.

You and I know the center of the earth is, to say the least, hot as Hell, and stuffed full of the sinful souls of everyone who ever disagreed with us,

No idea what you are talking about, why pretend we agree?

The lake of fire blah blah, it's all there in Revelation and therefore infallibly true

Opinions not needed, either you have some evidence that the prophesies are false or you are blathering nonsense.

dad · Jul 22, 2020

halbhh said:
So, having agreed on some things that actually matter (not details about the physical Earth, but some things that actually matter spiritually), the disagreement we have here in this particular thread is regarding the unusual (very rare or possibly unique?) views in the OP about the physical Earth being a habitat in the interior for spirits.

If the pit is opened and up they come to earth and have a king with a name, well, we must conclude they are down there before this. Then, when Jesus tosses the Devil down, we must conclude that it served also as a passage down, like a two way elevator.

Regarding the unusual (very rare or just new) idea that spirits are literally inside the interior of the Earth, literally.

You thought spirits were a joke or not real?

And I've laid out in contrast some of the actual meanings of those 4 verses you cited, if you read --

You offered opinions that tried to wave away all reality of the bible.

dad · Jul 22, 2020

lewisnotmiller said:
No problems. But I am talking about the topic, at least based on my interpretation of the OP.

Well, you applauded the methods of science, yet they know almost noting of the center of the earth. How is almost nothing better than tea leaves or etc?

Let's look at this with my serious face on for a second. Let's allow for a moment that even an educated guess by science currently is worth nothing more than chicken innards. Let's assume it is of absolutely no value at all.

That is easy.

Even then, whatever peg they have placed in the proverbial sand serves as an initial hypothesis which can in time be falsified.

No. We cannot redeem fables that oppose Scripture and have nothing but a basis of faith. No one will probably ever go down there before the kingdom of God comes to earth.

Perhaps, as you suggest, we can't make the least headway on this today. Perhaps it is ten years away before we can even incrementally move from 'complete bald-arsed guess', to 'complete bald-arsed guess with some small piece of information better indentified'.

There is no perhaps here. There is what is claimed as fact right now, that is truly ignorance and faith based.

That would represent a tiny, incremental improvement over a long period. Meanwhile, the chicken innards haven't added anything to the conversation or become in the least bit 'more accurate'.

I never brought up chicken anything, that would be you and it is true it added nothing to the conversation. It seems you are suggesting that unless we buy into the beliefs of so called science we are representing chicken guts.

Science is a process allowing evidence to be tested, and hypothesis to be falsified.

That never happened in regards to the center of the earth or origins. So by your own standard it is not science. Thanks for that.

And if the first 100 hypothesis are all complete rubbish, and each one is eventually proven somewhat or totally inaccurate then...we've still learnt something.

I have learned that they have no clue what they are talking about and scurry like rats to cover up when they get shown wrong.

dad · Jul 22, 2020

Twilight Hue said:
It might come as a surprise to some people that we know a lot more about the interior of the earth and its core more than one would think.

How we know what lies at Earth's core

From your link.

"We can estimate Earth's mass by observing the effect of the planet's gravity on objects at the surface."

No you can't. You assume that all the planet is physical.

"The density of the material at the Earth's surface is much lower than the average density of the whole Earth, so that tells us there's something much denser,"

Or, it may tell us that gravity can be based on a combination of physical and spiritual, but since we can't see it science assumes it all to be just physical.

"The next step is to ask which heavy materials make up the core."

That is just what you need to be true in your belief set. How about Gold and water and diamonds, and rubies, and etc etc? Remember God made this world, why be cheap?

"Given how much there is of it, iron is much less common at the surface of the Earth than we might expect."

I expect that this earth is special! Why would it need to be made of common material?? Then you claim that it 'must' have been here, and then sunk over imaginary long ages! Ridiculous religion.

"The iron must have somehow gravitated – literally – towards the centre of the Earth. But it's not immediately obvious how."

Hahaha

"The reason for this was simple. S-waves can only reverberate through solid material, and can't make it through liquid."

As I mentioned, some waves cannot pass through liquids, so they assume when a wave can't pass down in the center of the earth, it must be liquid. That doesn't say a lot.

"She came up with a surprising explanation: the core is divided into two layers. The "inner" core, which begins around 5,000km down, was actually solid. It was only the "outer" core above it that was molten."

So whether water or a spiritual layer, the wave would not pass. That does not help your religion.

We may not have arrived at the core of the Earth ourselves, but we certainly have sent waves that most certainly did arrive there and has given us quite an astounding picture as well as new speculations.

That is a belief based picture and nothing like what is actually there.

blü 2 · Jul 22, 2020

dad said:
False, science knows a fair bit. What it says about what it doesn't know is as you describe though, of course.
No idea what you are talking about, why pretend we agree?

Opinions not needed, either you have some evidence that the prophesies are false or you are blathering nonsense.

Other way round, old friend ─ you have to demonstrate the correctness of the reports of the prophecies to such a high standard that they raise the possibility of supernatural foreknowledge.

So which seems more likely to be factual to you?

That there are prophecies in the Tanakh accurately and precisely foretelling Jesus?

Or that the authors of the gospels collected various texts from the Tanakh and moved their hero through them so they could claim he "fulfilled prophecy" (as indeed they boastfully do on numerous occasions)?

For example, the Jesus of the author of Matthew is born of a virgin solely because the LXX translates 'almah (meaning 'young woman) in Isaiah 7:14 as Greek parthenos, 'virgin'.

And there never was a Roman tax collection census that required anyone to return to the town where they were born in order to enroll ─ yet the author of Matthew invents such a tale so that his version of Jesus can "fulfill" Micah 5:2 by having Jesus born in Bethlehem.

The same author invented the equally unhistoric "Massacre of the Innocents" so the family could flee to Egypt so Jesus could "come out of Egypt" and "fulfill" Hosea 11.1.

And he has the weirdly funny vision of Jesus sitting astride a donkey AND a foal (Matthew 21:2-5) so his Jesus can "fulfill" his misreading of Zechariah 9.9.

And that's just the tip of the tip of a very big, an ocean-filling, iceberg.

dad · Jul 22, 2020

blü 2 said:
Other way round, old friend ─ you have to demonstrate the correctness of the reports of the prophecies to such a high standard that they raise the possibility of supernatural foreknowledge.

To those who do not wave away last week, that is easy. Jesus said the temple was getting destroyed and not a stone left standing on another. Calling that coincidence would be insanity.

Or that the authors of the gospels collected various texts from the Tanakh and moved their hero through them so they could claim he "fulfilled prophecy

If there was No Jesus, no Paul, no Peter, no apostles, no martyrs no friends and families and multitudes healed and etc, you may have a point. As it stands you have a conspiracy theory based on less than nothing.

A great sign that a virgin would conceive would be no sign at all if it was not a virgin. You are slandering the witnesses and apostles and Christians who were there and recorded the events. All this in a thread about what science knows about the inside of the planet.

blü 2 · Jul 22, 2020

dad said:
To those who do not wave away last week, that is easy. Jesus said the temple was getting destroyed and not a stone left standing on another. Calling that coincidence would be insanity.

No, it's just another part of the demonstration that Mark was written after 70 CE. In fact Mark was written 75 CE or later, since the trial scene of Jesus is derived from Josephus' trial in Wars of Jesus of Jerusalem (aka Jesus son of Ananias / Ananus) which wasn't a public document till 75 CE.

dad said:
If there was No Jesus, no Paul, no Peter, no apostles, no martyrs no friends and families and multitudes healed and etc, you may have a point. As it stands you have a conspiracy theory based on less than nothing.

My view is not that there was no historical Jesus. My view is that we don't know whether there was an historical Jesus or not, and if there was, we know very little about him, except, perhaps, that he never spoke kindly of his mother save on one alleged occasion.

dad said:
A great sign that a virgin would conceive would be no sign at all if it was not a virgin. You are slandering the witnesses and apostles and Christians who were there and recorded the events. All this in a thread about what science knows about the inside of the planet.

Slandering? Don't be silly. Either the gospels can withstand critical examination or they can't. And I can show they contain a great deal of fiction ─ all the miracle tales and all the purported "fulfillment of prophecy" tales for a start ─ and in my view the existence of an historical Jesus is an open question.

I don't mind whether there was an historical Jesus or not. But look where you will, nowhere is there a clincher, one way or the other.

halbhh · Jul 22, 2020

dad said:
You thought spirits were a joke or not real?

No.

But I have no reason to think they are inside the Earth literally. Post #30 explains why by showing a full context understanding of those verses, where instead of isolating the verses, a better understanding of the verses relies on all of scripture as a whole.

I'll post it again.

halbhh · Jul 22, 2020

dad said:
Re 5:13 - And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This is saying that All of creation will respond to Him, not only the living creatures, but even all of nature.

(to get this better see also the end of the wonderful Isaiah chapter 55)

Ellicott's commentary is helpful:

" The whole universe, animate and inanimate, joins in this glad acclaim. To limit it to either rational or animate creation is to enfeeble the climax which this third chorus forms to the two preceding ones, and is to denude the passage of its fulness and of its poetry. The Hebrew mind delighted in representing every bird and every grass-blade as joining in God's praise. "Mountains and all hills, fruitful trees and all cedars, beasts and all cattle, creeping things and flying fowl," as well as kings of the earth and all people, were called on to bless the name of the Lord. Christian poets have told us that "Earth with her thousand voices praises God."
Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying: "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever!"

A Vestigial Mote · Jul 22, 2020

dad said:
They have no choice but to discard something when they get shown wrong. That does not mean that grabbing the same beliefs to cook up some other model is right.

As long as your "belief" models reality close enough that you can take advantage of natural circumstance to better your situation, who cares?

Religion doesn't have this though. It has no predictive power that is worth a damn, and provides no advancement of anything beyond a perceived advancement of individuals.

halbhh · Jul 22, 2020

A Vestigial Mote said:
As long as your "belief" models reality close enough that you can take advantage of natural circumstance to better your situation, who cares?

Religion doesn't have this though. It has no predictive power that is worth a damn, and provides no advancement of anything beyond a perceived advancement of individuals.

Well, at least in our religion according to its own text, this other thing is expressly what the religion is about --

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

(here the meaning to avoid being 'polluted by the world' is to avoid worldly trends like greed or lusts or avarice or current tendencies of some culture like slander or whatever are the popular wrongs of a given culture, place, time)

So, you see, it's 0% about technology or science advancement, and about "love one another" as is expressly the central commandment in our religion, called 'Christianity'.

But since this religion is old, and 2 billion identify as 'Christian', just as anyone would guess, we only have a portion, a fraction, that is following what Jesus said.

Just as anyone could expect, the enduring prestige factor of the tradition has been used for other purposes having nothing to do with what Jesus said.

Of course.

Or "polluted by the world", as the wording in that verse.

Often, groups that have evolved it into a political power thing, for example, such as in a segment of 'Christians' in the U.S. lately.

A Vestigial Mote · Jul 22, 2020

halbhh said:
Well, at least in our religion according to its own text, this other thing is expressly what the religion is about --

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

(here the meaning to avoid being 'polluted by the world' is to avoid worldly trends like greed or lusts or avarice or current tendencies of some culture like slander or whatever are the popular wrongs of a given culture, place, time)

So, you see, it's 0% about technology or science advancement, and about "love one another" as is expressly the central commandment in our religion, called 'Christianity'.

But since this religion is old, and 2 billion identify as 'Christian', just as anyone would guess, we only have a portion, a fraction, that is following what Jesus said.

Just as anyone could expect, the enduring prestige factor of the tradition has been used for other purposes having nothing to do with what Jesus said.

Of course.

Or "polluted by the world", as the wording in that verse.

Often, groups that have evolved it into a political power thing, for example, such as in a segment of 'Christians' in the U.S. lately.

Religion doesn't have the market cornered on bettering people or directing them toward being morally upstanding. There are plenty of initiatives trying to further us all on toward that exact goal, religions, foundations, charities, schools, some of those in politics, etc., etc., etc.

However, if you are observing the world around you, coming to conclusions about the activities and behaviors of natural phenomenon, with the potential to make accurate predictions (whether or not you go on to use that information to change or further your own circumstances) - YOU ARE DOING "SCIENCE." There's really no way of getting around that.

"Science" is not some group of conspirators trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. That's where the author of this thread is trying to take the conversation and it couldn't be a more misguided or ignorant aim.

halbhh · Jul 22, 2020

A Vestigial Mote said:
Religion doesn't have the market cornered on bettering people or directing them toward being morally upstanding

I think there is very widespread agreement on that! Most Christians would agree with that, for instance, and just most people in general.

Christians that know the mainstream understandings (or even who just read with listening entire books instead of isolated verses) can help those interested find out just what is different though in our religion.

But, today the trend is that the loudest voices, often political or merely prejudiced -- often knowing very little of what has been Christian, such as Trump -- are the most heard, creating an illusion about what Christianity is.

A Vestigial Mote said:
if you are observing the world around you, coming to conclusions about the activities and behaviors of natural phenomenon, with the potential to make accurate predictions (whether or not you go on to use that information to change or further your own circumstances) - YOU ARE DOING "SCIENCE." There's really no way of getting around that.

Now you're preaching to the choir on this one, and we need more of it too!

One of the down sides of the internet is that new theories people invent and try to legitimize using God and misreading isolated verses from the bible can be endlessly repeated in a forum.

One person can post hundreds of times and make what is actually an unusual (or even very rare) viewpoint seem far more widespread than it is in reality.

Little known about interior of earth

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The wonder and awe of "all things".

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The wonder and awe of "all things".

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The wonder and awe of "all things".

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The wonder and awe of "all things".