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The LORD is my shepherd

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You say that you can love Jesus without worshipping him. I don't think you can. Worship is service, and you cannot love Jesus from the heart unless you serve him.

I do not serve Jesus.....I do not worship Jesus.....I serve the God that Jesus served, and I am trying to do the work that Jesus assigned to his disciples....the preaching of the good news about God's Kingdom. (Matthew 28:19-20) Why is that so hard to comprehend? A trinitarian mindset has you blinded. I love Jesus the way his disciples loved him....they respected and honored him....but they did not worship him. They worshipped the Father with Jesus.

You say that the Greek word for worship (Gk. proskun) refers to a lesser form of worship, but that is not correct.

I did not say that. If you read my posts again you will see that context is what determines how proskyneo is translated. The same word means both worship and obeisance. Since Jesus never once solicited worship (because he is not God) but worships his God and Father, even in heaven, "obeisance" is what was given him by the angels, as well as by the magi.

Jesus uses the same word when talking about worship of the Father. John 4:23; 'But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship (proskun) the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship (proskun) him'.

Yep...worship is rendered to God.....obeisance is rendered to someone who is not God...that is what proskyneo means...a bowing in reverence to someone whose position warrants it.
Matthew 18:26 uses the word for a slave prostrating himself before his Master. Context determines the meaning.

To the Samaritan woman Jesus said: “The hour is coming when neither in this mountain [Gerizim] nor in Jerusalem will you people worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know . . . Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:21-24)

Who does Jesus say is looking for those who will worship in spirit and truth? Not Jesus.

The reason that I highlighted Pentecost in my last post was because the baptism in the Holy Spirit is central to service. The baptism in the Holy Spirit provides us with the Spirit of righteousness, and by having that Spirit within us, we are given the power to walk 'in spirit and in truth'. If I do not walk by the Holy Spirit, then I walk, instead, by your own spirit, in works of self-righteousness.

I know what it means according to my beliefs, but what does it mean to you, to be baptized in the holy spirit? What does it mean to "walk in" the same spirit that anointed Christ at his baptism? Do all Christians have this expectation, and if so what does it lead to? I mean, what do Christians do in heaven?

Can you tell me, according to your understanding, when it was that God purposed to take humans to the heavenly realm and were good people always destined to be taken there eventually?
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Since astrology and divination were forbidden by God's law, it is reasonable to conclude that these were not worshippers of Jehovah. No one else is said to have seen the star but them. By the time they arrived, probably from Babylon, Jesus was a young child and living in a house. The star sent them straight to Herod but after he had been alerted, and hatched his murderous plot, it led them straight to the house where Jesus lived.
This star was not from God, but from his enemy in an attempt to destroy the Christ child before he even had a chance to grow up. The magi were dupes, proven by the fact that God sent them home via another route.



It matters little in the big scheme of things. Their presence simply confirms that satan was bound and determined to do away with this one who was prophesied to give him a fatal head wound. (Genesis 3:15) God revealed the birth of his son to Jewish shepherds out in their fields at night. He would never have brought such important news to pagan astrologers who practiced what he condemned.



Yes.....they were simply paying respect to a royal child, as was their custom...with expensive gifts.

The magi are often portrayed in Christendom as attending the stable at the time of Jesus birth, which is not true.....by the time of their arrival, Jesus was about two years old. That is the age of the children Herod had put to death....two years old and under.
When Mary and Joseph presented Jesus at the Temple, for circumcision, (at 8 days old) the law stated that they had to make an offering to God. (Luke 2:21-24) Their offering was two turtle doves...the offering of the poor. If they had been in possession of gold, frankincense and myrrh, they would have offered a more valuable sacrifice.

As it was prophesied, that a heavenly event would herald the birth of the promised Messiah, we must ask if there was any significant heavenly event in 6 BC.

"Astronomy, Astrology, and the Star of Bethlehem." BY John Clevenger of the Lake Country Astronomical Society," which says as follows, "Did any unusual astronomical phenomenon occur between 8 and 2 BC? As it happens there were several notable celestial events during that period. The Chinese astronomical records, which have proved very reliable, reported two comets during that time. The comet of 5 BC which was visible for 70 days, was reported to have a tail. Professor Humphreys of Cambridge University believes that this comet, which he describes as having a vertical tail, appeared at the time of the Jewish Passover. Professor Humpherys believed that this started the Magi, who were knowledgeable of the Jewish prophecy recorded in the book of Micah, concerning the birth of a Jewish king, on their journey.

If right about the vertical tail, this could agree with the biblical account in Matthew that the "Star Stood Over" [THE HOUSE] where the young child was" as the term “STOOD OVER” in ancient literature, according to Professor Humphreys of Cambridge University, refers to comets and comets only.

The comet of 4 BC had no tail and whether it was a comet or a nova is unknown. If it was a nova in 4 BC, which is the death of a star, it would have coincided with the death of Herod the Great in that same year. While historians have usually suggested that comets were always bad omens. Humphreys believes that history shows them to be either good or bad omens.

.I could use any of a number of authorities to supply evidence of the 6 BC triple conjunction of the "King Planet" Jupiter, with Mars, the “God of War” and Saturn the “God of Time,” who brings the golden age of peace to the earth, which I believe was read by the wise men as the sign that was prophesied to herald the birth of the promised King, (Jupiter) who was to succeed to the throne of David the warrior king, (Mars) as the prophesied Messianic King of Israel, who is to come and subdue the surrounding Nations and bring in the golden Age of one thousand years of peace. (Saturn.)

All short period comets which re-appear every two hundred years of less, have their aphelia in the orbit of Jupiter and even up until relatively recent times, those short period comets were thought to have been created from material ejected from the King Planet Jupiter and were called the family of Jupiter.

The comet of early 5 B.C., would have been captured by the gravitation pull of the triple conjunction, and IMO, would have been seen as the child born of the glorious expanded body of Jupiter, and it was this that set them on their Journey to Israel.

The Comet of 5 B.C., which is said to have a tail and remained visible to those in the northern hemisphere for 70 days and led the Magi to the child Jesus in Nazareth, would have been very similar to the comet Hale-bopp, which was first seen March 1-10 low on the eastern horizon

By May 8, the Comet Hale-Bopp would be approaching its last hurrah, and would have become increasingly difficult to see low in the fading glow of sunset.

During the next week or two, you could still follow the fading comet right down into the sunset with the naked eye or binoculars, etc.

The Comet, or Hairy star as they were called in those days, would have first been seen low on the eastern horizon, having of itself no apparent movement other than being one among the background of stars that appear to travel from the east to the west according to the rotation of the earth, and yet each night it would appear in a different heavenly position relative to the background stars as it travelled toward the western horizon in its 70 days of visibility in the northern hemisphere.

The title "wise men" is translated from the original Greek word magos. The word refers to a priest of the Persian religion Zoroastrianism. These priests, or magi, frequently looked to the stars for signs of the future and gained an international reputation for astrology and revelation/divination.

It is more than probable that the "wise men" were in fact Zoroastrian priests from Persia. And as there was a sizable Jewish presence in Babylon at that time, they obviously studied the old Hebrew scriptures. (Historians estimate that there were about 6-7 million Jews living in the Roman Empire (plus another 1 million from Persia.)

Although the history of the Jews in Iraq in the 5th century BCE is largely unknown, we know that the exiles were allowed to practice their religion while in Persia, and that they would have established schools/colleges in which to teach the children born while they were in exile.

The Bible also states that when the magi found the child Jesus, they "fell down and worshiped him." This verse references or indicates bowing, kneeling or prostration, which was generally viewed by both the ancient Jews and Romans as undignified, and in Jewish tradition was reserved for their God alone. However, for Persians, bowing or kneeling was a sign of respect generally directed toward kings.

I believe that the Bible should only be interpreted by the scriptures themselves. The Books of the Bible are like wheels of perfectly interlocking cogs, wheels within wheels, here a little and there a little etc.

Luke tells us that Mary gave birth to her firstborn son in the town of Bethlehem of Judea, as opposed to the Bethlehem, which was about two miles from Nazareth in Galilee, and that eight days after the child was born, it was circumcised and named Jesus. Then thirty-three days later, and before the wise men from the east had come and lavished their gifts of Gold, Frank-incense and mire, on the baby Jesus, he was taken OPENLY to the temple in Jerusalem by his not so financial parents, where his mother performed the purification ceremony, in accordance to the time demanded by the law handed down through Moses.

And after they had completed everything in ACCORDANCE TO THE LAW, they returned to their home in Nazareth. Luke makes no mention of any wise men traveling to Bethlehem of Judaea, or of any slaughter of the innocents.

How do we know, even though it is not mentioned in Luke, that it was thirty-three days after the circumcision that the ceremony of purification was performed? Because Luke says, "And when the days of her purification ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF MOSES were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord.

To be continued.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Continued from poet #142.

According to scripture, the child was taken to the temple in Jerusalem for the ceremony of purification at the correct time demanded by the law of Moses, which was 41 days after the birth, immediately after which, the family returned to their home in Nazareth.

To find out when the days of her purification according to the Law of Moses were accomplished, we simply turn to Leviticus 12: 3-4; and let the Bible reveal itself to us: (3) On the eighth day the child shall be circumcised. (4) Then it shall be 33 more days until she is ritually clean from her loss of blood; etc.

How do we know that the parents of Jesus were not flushed financially? Again, we must let the Bible reveal that to us, Leviticus 12: 8, "If the woman cannot afford a lamb, she shall bring two doves or pigeons etc," the fact that the birds were offered, shows that they were unable to afford a lamb, and had not yet received the gifts of Gold, etc.

How long was it before the wise men, after seeing the comet early in the spring of 5 BC, which is believed to have been the inspiration for them to travel to Jerusalem, decided that they should go to pay homage to the heir of that throne, and to organize that trip? And how long did it take them to travel from Mesopotamia to Jerusalem?

The only help that we receive from the Bible is found in Ezra 7: 8-9; "They (Ezra and his group) left Babylonia on the first day of the first month, and with God’s help they arrived in Jerusalem on the first day of the fifth month."

Four months, it took them to travel to Jerusalem. Even if we halve that time and take into account that the comet which inspired them to travel to Jerusalem had not appeared until sometime after the triple conjunction of 6 BC, which had heralded the birth of Jesus, there is no possible way that the wise men could have seen the baby Jesus in the manger in Bethlehem of Judaea, as the family (According to Luke) had returned to Nazareth 2 months after the birth of the child in Bethlehem.

On bright moonlit or cloudy nights or dust storms, the comet would be hidden from view, and apparently this was what had happened before they reached Jerusalem and went to the Palace of Herod and asked; Matthew 2: 2-“Where is the baby born to be the king of the Jews? We saw his star when it came up in the east, and we have come to worship him.”

They believed that the child had been already been born.

Matthew 2: 7; So Herod called the visitors from the east to a secret meeting and found out from them the the exact time that the star had appeared, etc.

After revealing to Herod in 4 B.C., the exact time that they had seen the heavenly sign that had heralded the birth of the promised Messiah, we read in Matthew 2: 16; it was in accordance to this information that Herod determined the age of the children who were to be slaughtered, all those who had been born in 6 B.C., or after. This reveals that the wise men had seen the star that had heralded the birth of Jesus, almost two years previously.

Having been told that the child was prophesied to be born in Bethlehem of Judaea, (Although we know from Luke that the family had left Bethlehem 41 days after the child had been born and had returned to their home in Nazareth) the wise men Left the palace of Herod, and behold, there in the north norwest of Jerusalem, the star that they had seen in the east, was visible once again, and Oh what joy was theirs.

Traveling north in the direction of the hairy star, we can almost picture the scene, the wise men with their entourage travelling along the dusty roads of northern Israel, it’s late in the day and as they come to a rise, there, just above the distant horizon, in the deepening darkness of the evening sky, is the star with its tail streaming up into the heavens and appearing to STAND OVER the small and insignificant hamlet, or Zealot Commune, called "Nazareth," as it slowly followed the setting sun.

After entering, not the manger in Bethlehem of Judah, but the ‘HOUSE’ of Joseph and Mary in Nazareth, the wise men paid homage to the child Jesus, That very same night, the wise men, who would presumably have travelled to Jerusalem across the Kings Highway, were warned in a dream not to reveal to Herod the child’s whereabouts, and they returned home by a different route from which they had come, which would, more than likely, have been up through the northern route of Damascus, and Joseph was also warned to get out of bed immediately and take the child and his mother and flee into Egypt.

Herod’s secret police had eyes and ears throughout the entire land, and when he realised that he had been tricked and the wise men were not going to return and reveal the child’s location as promised, he was furious and gave the order to kill all the male children in the district that Herod's spies had confirmed that the wise men with their entourage had travelled to, which was around Bethlehem of Galilee, who were two years and below according to the time that he learned from the wise men about when they had first sighted the star that had heralded the birth of the promised king and savour.

According to Josephus the historian, Sepphoris, which was only about 4 miles from Bethlehem of Galilee, and a few kilometres from Nazareth, had a population of around thirty thousand and he called it, "The Ornament of Galilee."

Around the time of Herod’s death in the spring of 4BC, just after he had ordered the slaughter of the innocents around the district of Bethlehem of Galilee, who were two years and below, according to the time that the wise men had seen the heavenly sign that had heralded the birth of Jesus in 6 B.C. there were riots among the peasants of the area in Galilee of which Sepphoris was the centre. Judas, the son of Hezekias attacked the arsenal of Herod in the city of Sepphoris in order to arm the peasants.

The Romans under Quintillius Varus of Syria, attacked and burnt the city, putting down the uprising in which many families died and others were taken prisoner and transported to Rome, where they were sold as slaves. But Joseph, with his wife and her child had escaped the slaughter by fleeing into Egypt.

After a failed suicide attempt, which I believe may have been an option given to him by Caesar Augustus, in the spring of 4 BC, Herod the Great died, then in the spring of 3 B.C., after the death of Herod his father, when Antipas returned from Rome where his father’s will had been ratified by Augustus, he chose and rebuilt the magnificent city of Sepphoris as his capital city for ruling over Galilee.

The comet of 5 B.C., and the McNaught comet will probably never be seen again. The current orbit of the McNaught comet is hyperbolic which means the comet will be ejected from the inner Solar System never to return. After it leaves the influence of the planets and it will remain bound to the outermost dome of our Solar System as an Oort Cloud comet. This may also have been the fate of the comet of 5 B.C.

Why didn’t the Jews see the comet/Hairy Star that guided the Wise men to the house of Mary?

How many people would have seen the comet ‘Hale-Bopp, which remained visible in the heavens for over seventy nights: or how many would have even known it was there if they had not been told by the astronomers who studied the heavens every night?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
You ask: Where does it say in scripture that Jehovah is 'the principal savior'? Certainly, Isaiah 43:11 says nothing of the sort. It says, 'I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH); and beside me there is no savior.'

My answer: Savior is defined as, One who preserves or delivers from danger or destruction. …..Our Father Jehovah IS OUR ONLY SAVIOR that hears the prayers from His children that humbly, and sincerely want to follow ALL of His direction THROUGH His Son, Our Christ Jesus. Throughout the entire Holy Scriptures, sincere humans understand that our Almighty Creator raises up saviors to bring us out of evil, and our Lord Christ Jesus is the number one savior of all saviors that our Father has sent our way. He has sent saviors to us by way of angels as well as sons of man. (think of the angels that saved Lot, think of Moses) So exactly what part of ‘beside me there is no savior’ at Isaiah 43:11 are you having difficulty understanding????

(Example: A prayer of need is somewhat like a 911 call,, the phone line of our prayer is through Jesus, from Jesus/911 call center, the prayer/911message is sent to Jehovah/Sergeant,,,, Jehovah sends saviors/Sergeant sends officers,,,, now think for just a moment, the officers cannot do anything without the Sergeants direction, or else they may pay a severe penalty later, such as when Moses did not give credit where credit was due and Jehovah did not allow him into the promised land)

Numbers 23:19 states very clearly, “God is not a mere man who tells lies, Nor a son of man who changes his mind. When he says something, will he not do it? When he speaks, will he not carry it out?” In fact, God, not only cannot lie, but it is impossible for God to lie:: Heb 6:18,Titus 1:2. Notice also at Num 23:19 that God is not a son of man, also 1Sam 15:29, yet In the Gospel accounts that expression is found nearly 80 times, applying in every case to Jesus Christ, being used by him to refer to himself. (Mt 8:20; 9:6; 10:23) The occurrences outside the Gospel accounts are at Acts 7:56; Hebrews 2:6; and Revelation 1:13; 14:14. So obviously our Father Jehovah, and our Lord Christ Jesus are two separate entities.

You ask ::: There is no savior beside God. Yet, you say that Jesus Christ is your savior. How can this be?

My answer :::: At Ne 9:27, “……you would give them saviors to rescue them out of the hand of their adversaries.” Judges 3:9 “……Jehovah raised up a savior to rescue the Israelites”,,,, Judges 2:18 “….Whenever Jehovah did raise up judges for them, Jehovah would be with the judge and save them from the hand of their enemies”,,,, Jer 23:5 “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will raise up to David a righteous sprout. And a king will reign and show insight and uphold justice and righteousness in the land.” Jer 33:15 “In those days and at that time I will cause to sprout for David a righteous sprout, and he will execute justice and righteousness in the land.16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will reside in security. And this is what she will be called: Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.’” Zec 3:8 ““‘Hear, please, O High Priest Joshua, you and your companions who sit before you, for these men serve as a sign; look! I am bringing in my servant Sprout!Isa 53:2 He will come up like a twig before him, like a root out of parched land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor;And when we see him, his appearance does not draw us to him.” (A twig/root to any true gardener is indeed a sprout//See also Isa 11:1) Zec 6:12 “And say to him, “‘This is what Jehovah of armies says: “Here is the man whose name is Sprout. He will sprout from his own place, and he will build the temple of Jehovah.”
You ask : 'AGENT OF JEHOVAH'? What's that all about?!

My Answer : Agent is defined as a person who acts on behalf of another person or group: a person or thing that takes an active role or produces a specified effect Sounds to me like Jehovah’s Only Begotten Son, Our Lord Christ Jesus filled this role perfectly.

You State : I'm clear in my own mind that the Spirit upon Jesus in the synagogue in Nazareth [Luke 4:18] was the Spirit of the Lord without 'measure' [John 3:34]. How can Jesus have had the Spirit without measure and not have been acting with the full authority of his Father? This was, indeed, the presence of God in a temple of God's own making.

My Answer: At no time that I am aware of has Jesus ever acted without full authority from his Father.

You ask: When Jesus was resurrected, Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God'. Was this a mistake?

My Answer: Thomas showed a doubting attitude in response to Jesus’ comment about going away to prepare a place for the apostles, saying: “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How do we know the way?” (Joh 14:2-6) Similarly, after hearing about Jesus’ resurrection, Thomas stated: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will certainly not believe.” Eight days later Thomas had the opportunity to do this when Jesus again appeared to the disciples. But whether Thomas actually did feel the wounds on this occasion is not stated. He was nevertheless convinced and exclaimed: “My Lord and my God!” Christ then mildly reproved him, saying: “Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.”—Joh 20:24-29. Thomas did not say My Lord God, or My Lord Jehovah, or My God Jesus. The word ‘and’ if you’ll take notice of a dictionary, is used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences, that are to be taken jointly, such as peanut butter and jelly. Obviously, the peanut butter is not the same thing as the jelly, however when you put them together, they make for a perfect sandwich.

You Ask: How can you honor the Father as your LORD, if you don't honor Jesus as your Lord? How can you honor Jesus Christ as your Lord unless God be in him?

My Answer: Lord is defined as someone or something having power, authority, or influence; a master or ruler: Obviously, Our Father Jehovah who is Our Almighty Creator and Our Lord Jesus Christ who is the Master Worker and the only begotten Son of our Father that now reigns as King sitting at the right hand of God, both certainly deserve all the honor as our Lords. Col 1:13 “He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist

So once again I ask, Which is wiser?? To make the clear statements of scripture conform to our imperfect human conceptions of what may be implied??? OR To believe the clear teaching of our Creator’s Inspired Scripture, and accept that these perceived implications might be due to our misunderstanding of scripture or completely in error???

There is one point I want to focus on here, and that is salvation.

My answer: Savior is defined as, One who preserves or delivers from danger or destruction. …..Our Father Jehovah IS OUR ONLY SAVIOR that hears the prayers from His children that humbly, and sincerely want to follow ALL of His direction THROUGH His Son, Our Christ Jesus. Throughout the entire Holy Scriptures, sincere humans understand that our Almighty Creator raises up saviors to bring us out of evil, and our Lord Christ Jesus is the number one savior of all saviors that our Father has sent our way. He has sent saviors to us by way of angels as well as sons of man. (think of the angels that saved Lot, think of Moses) So exactly what part of ‘beside me there is no savior’ at Isaiah 43:11 are you having difficulty understanding????

The definition of 'saviour' that you provide is not helpful in the context of our discussion. If this definition were to be applied then I could claim to be 'saviour' because I saved a spider from disappearing down the plughole.

God wishes to save mankind from sin and death. I ask you, Is there any man, or god, who is able save men from sin and from death? Not according to my Bible. But maybe your Bible says something different?

Now we can read the statement of God in a clearer light. Isaiah 43:11. 'I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.'

There is no saviour beside the LORD because there is no one else who can save from sin and death.

But, hang on, Jesus Christ is a saviour from sin and death! Luke 2:11.'For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord'.

So once again I ask, Which is wiser?? To make the clear statements of scripture conform to our imperfect human conceptions of what may be implied??? OR To believe the clear teaching of our Creator’s Inspired Scripture, and accept that these perceived implications might be due to our misunderstanding of scripture or completely in error???

Yes, let's accept 'the clear teaching of our Creator's Inspired scripture' and agree that Jesus Christ is Saviour, because there is only one Saviour, God. The Father is God, and the Son is God.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I do not serve Jesus.....I do not worship Jesus.....I serve the God that Jesus served, and I am trying to do the work that Jesus assigned to his disciples....the preaching of the good news about God's Kingdom. (Matthew 28:19-20) Why is that so hard to comprehend? A trinitarian mindset has you blinded. I love Jesus the way his disciples loved him....they respected and honored him....but they did not worship him. They worshipped the Father with Jesus.



I did not say that. If you read my posts again you will see that context is what determines how proskyneo is translated. The same word means both worship and obeisance. Since Jesus never once solicited worship (because he is not God) but worships his God and Father, even in heaven, "obeisance" is what was given him by the angels, as well as by the magi.



Yep...worship is rendered to God.....obeisance is rendered to someone who is not God...that is what proskyneo means...a bowing in reverence to someone whose position warrants it.
Matthew 18:26 uses the word for a slave prostrating himself before his Master. Context determines the meaning.

To the Samaritan woman Jesus said: “The hour is coming when neither in this mountain [Gerizim] nor in Jerusalem will you people worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know . . . Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:21-24)

Who does Jesus say is looking for those who will worship in spirit and truth? Not Jesus.



I know what it means according to my beliefs, but what does it mean to you, to be baptized in the holy spirit? What does it mean to "walk in" the same spirit that anointed Christ at his baptism? Do all Christians have this expectation, and if so what does it lead to? I mean, what do Christians do in heaven?

Can you tell me, according to your understanding, when it was that God purposed to take humans to the heavenly realm and were good people always destined to be taken there eventually?

Now, this is getting interesting; it opens up a whole can of worms, especially if it applies to all JWs!

'I do not serve Jesus... I do not worship Jesus'; bold statements, indeed!

The point is, Christians worship a risen Lord. The Holy Spirit leads to the Son, and the Son to the Father. All three are one God.

Luke 18:18.'And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God'.

Is Jesus saying he is not good, or that he is God? If you say that he is not good, it means that he is a man only, and as a man, he must also be a sinner; for all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Only God is [perfectly] good
Jesus Christ is [perfectly] good
Therefore, Jesus Christ is God
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
There is one point I want to focus on here, and that is salvation.



The definition of 'saviour' that you provide is not helpful in the context of our discussion. If this definition were to be applied then I could claim to be 'saviour' because I saved a spider from disappearing down the plughole.

God wishes to save mankind from sin and death. I ask you, Is there any man, or god, who is able save men from sin and from death? Not according to my Bible. But maybe your Bible says something different?

Now we can read the statement of God in a clearer light. Isaiah 43:11. 'I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.'

There is no saviour beside the LORD because there is no one else who can save from sin and death.

But, hang on, Jesus Christ is a saviour from sin and death! Luke 2:11.'For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord'.



Yes, let's accept 'the clear teaching of our Creator's Inspired scripture' and agree that Jesus Christ is Saviour, because there is only one Saviour, God. The Father is God, and the Son is God.

1 Timothy 1: "From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by order of God our Saviour and Christ Jesus our hope."
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Now, this is getting interesting; it opens up a whole can of worms, especially if it applies to all JWs!

'I do not serve Jesus... I do not worship Jesus'; bold statements, indeed!

The point is, Christians worship a risen Lord. The Holy Spirit leads to the Son, and the Son to the Father. All three are one God.

Luke 18:18.'And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God'.

Is Jesus saying he is not good, or that he is God? If you say that he is not good, it means that he is a man only, and as a man, he must also be a sinner; for all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Only God is [perfectly] good
Jesus Christ is [perfectly] good
Therefore, Jesus Christ is God

Jesus was a man, born of his parents Mary and Joseph who were both sired by Alexander Helios, who is also called Heli.

Jesus was the collective conscience of all the righteous spirits who had paid the blood price for any mistakes that they had made while in the flesh, which righteous spirits had been divided from the wicked and gathered to the bosom of Abraham, over those righteous spirits who dwelt behind the veil of the flesh, within the innermost sanctuary of their Temple, ‘The Man Jesus,’ the second death had no power.

It was they, who. When Jesus was on the cross and gave up his spirit, crying, “My God, My God, why have you abandoned me,” whose graves were then opened and who, three days later entered the city and revealed themselves to many as the risen body of the anointed one.

Jesus, in who were the spirits of the righteous, who had been gathered to the bosom of Abraham, was resurrected on the first day after the weekly Sabbath that followed the Passover, which is the festival of “First Fruits,” HE was not the first fruit (Singular) but the first fruits(Plural) to be harvested from the body of mankind. He was the first of many brothers and sisters, who are to be conformed to the glorious image of God’s only begotten Son, who is the Spirit, that according to our concept of one direction linear time, is still currently developing within the androgynous body of mankind, and who pays the penalty for the sins of the body in which he develops.

Those righteous spirits to whom Jesus preached the GOOD NEWS also, Now live as Enoch, who inherited the throne of the most high in the creation, lived within the spiritual inner dimension that coexists within our three dimensional world, (The Kingdom of God which flesh and blood cannot inherit, is within you) gathering to themselves the required number of the spirits of their righteous descendants, whose blood will pay the ransom price, for one man in who, each will duplicate themselves and those chosen ones, who will be the resurrected body of Christ, over whom the second death will have no power, will take the thrones that have been prepared for them and rule as Kings upon this earth for a thousand Years, after which, at the sound of the last trumpet, they shall be transformed from Corruptible bodies of flesh and blood, into glorious bodies of incorruptible light.

It was Enoch who was in the valley of man,(The inner dimension ) for three days or three thousand years to whom, in the bosom of Abraham the spirits of the righteous were gathered, before duplicating himself as the man Jesus. Elijah, who like Enoch was carried to heaven without experiencing death, has now been in the valley of man for three days also, and it is he who gathers the required number of Jews and Gentiles who are to take the thrones that have been prepared for them.

And it is then and only then, that God's only begotten prophet descends from his high point in time and enters the body of Jesus, where he is treated with outrage and hung upon a tree and when the veil of that temple is torn, the spirit of the Lord God our savior will be poured forth as fire upon the Gentiles.

From the last Testament of Benjamin to his children; while in Egypt 9: 1; And I believe that there will be also evil-doings among you, from the words of Enoch the righteous: that ye shall commit fornication with the fornication of Sodom, and shall perish, all save a few, and shall renew wanton deeds with women; and the kingdom of the Lord shall not be among, you, for straightway He shall take it away. 2 Nevertheless the temple of God shall be in your portion, and the last (temple) shall be more glorious than the first. And the twelve tribes shall be gathered together there, and all the Gentiles, until the Most High shall send forth His salvation in the visitation of an only 3 begotten prophet. [And He shall enter into the [first] temple, and there shall the Lord be treated with outrage, and He shall be lifted up upon 4 a tree. And the veil of the temple shall be rent, and the Spirit of God shall pass on to the Gentiles 5 as fire poured forth. And He shall ascend from Hades and shall pass from earth into heaven. And I know how lowly He shall be upon earth, and how glorious in heaven.]
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Wow...out of my whole post, this is all you want to talk about? o_O Its what you have ignored that is of interest to me....

Now, this is getting interesting; it opens up a whole can of worms, especially if it applies to all JWs!

'I do not serve Jesus... I do not worship Jesus'; bold statements, indeed!

The point is, Christians worship a risen Lord. The Holy Spirit leads to the Son, and the Son to the Father. All three are one God.

"A can of worms"???? Really?
Christians do not worship Jesus.....he is "our risen Lord" but he is not The LORD Jehovah.
His title is not his name....."LORD" written in capital letters in the KJV, is an indication that God's name YHWH was substituted with his title (Adonai, Lord)....which simply means “sir,” “owner,” “master”.....it in no way singles out God as the only one who can assume that title. It is not God's name any more than "Sir" or "Master" is a name.

The holy spirit is the application of God's power...who told you it was a person? If you refer to the Greek "parakletos" (helper or comforter) you will see that like French grammar, things can be either masculine or feminine even though gender is not applicable. "Parakletos" is masculine and properly referred to as "he", not because it is a person, but because Greek grammar demands it.

When Jesus was baptized and holy spirit descended upon him, he was thus born “from water and spirit.” By the Father's declaration from heaven, ‘This is my Son whom I have approved,’ God announced that he had brought forth a spiritual son having the prospect of entering into the heavenly Kingdom. Later, at Pentecost 33 C.E., other baptized ones received holy spirit and were thus also born again as spiritual sons of God.

Luke 18:18.'And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God'.

Is Jesus saying he is not good, or that he is God? If you say that he is not good, it means that he is a man only, and as a man, he must also be a sinner; for all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Or in plain English...."A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."

I am having trouble understanding your reasoning here....all I can put it down to is the trinitarian mindset again.
If Jesus was God, then why the need for his question? It would have been a 'given' that he was rightly addressed as "good"....but Jesus asked why the man called him "good" when the superlative belonged to his God alone.

Jesus was 100% human...he had to be in order to pay the "ransom" for mankind. (Matthew 20:28)
If Jesus was God, then he could not die....God is immortal....mere humans cannot kill an immortal. If Jesus did not die, then the ransom was not paid and we are all still condemned and without hope.

What is a ransom? Is it an amount that can be too little or too much? Or is it a set amount based on the value what is being ransomed.
Jesus' life paid for the life that Adam lost for his children. All he had to be was the equivalent of Adam which is why he is called "the last Adam". (1 Corinthians 15:54)

Only God is [perfectly] good
Jesus Christ is [perfectly] good
Therefore, Jesus Christ is God

Jesus was not claiming to be [perfectly] good...he said that only God could rightfully have that word applied to him.
If Jesus questioned why the man called him "good", then he was telling him that only God is "good"...so logically, Jesus is NOT God.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Wow...out of my whole post, this is all you want to talk about? o_O Its what you have ignored that is of interest to me....



"A can of worms"???? Really?
Christians do not worship Jesus.....he is "our risen Lord" but he is not The LORD Jehovah.
His title is not his name....."LORD" written in capital letters in the KJV, is an indication that God's name YHWH was substituted with his title (Adonai, Lord)....which simply means “sir,” “owner,” “master”.....it in no way singles out God as the only one who can assume that title. It is not God's name any more than "Sir" or "Master" is a name.

The holy spirit is the application of God's power...who told you it was a person? If you refer to the Greek "parakletos" (helper or comforter) you will see that like French grammar, things can be either masculine or feminine even though gender is not applicable. "Parakletos" is masculine and properly referred to as "he", not because it is a person, but because Greek grammar demands it.

When Jesus was baptized and holy spirit descended upon him, he was thus born “from water and spirit.” By the Father's declaration from heaven, ‘This is my Son whom I have approved,’ God announced that he had brought forth a spiritual son having the prospect of entering into the heavenly Kingdom. Later, at Pentecost 33 C.E., other baptized ones received holy spirit and were thus also born again as spiritual sons of God.



Or in plain English...."A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."

I am having trouble understanding your reasoning here....all I can put it down to is the trinitarian mindset again.
If Jesus was God, then why the need for his question? It would have been a 'given' that he was rightly addressed as "good"....but Jesus asked why the man called him "good" when the superlative belonged to his God alone.

Jesus was 100% human...he had to be in order to pay the "ransom" for mankind. (Matthew 20:28)
If Jesus was God, then he could not die....God is immortal....mere humans cannot kill an immortal. If Jesus did not die, then the ransom was not paid and we are all still condemned and without hope.

What is a ransom? Is it an amount that can be too little or too much? Or is it a set amount based on the value what is being ransomed.
Jesus' life paid for the life that Adam lost for his children. All he had to be was the equivalent of Adam which is why he is called "the last Adam". (1 Corinthians 15:54)



Jesus was not claiming to be [perfectly] good...he said that only God could rightfully have that word applied to him.
If Jesus questioned why the man called him "good", then he was telling him that only God is "good"...so logically, Jesus is NOT God.

Deeje wrote; 'When Jesus was baptized and holy spirit descended upon him, he was thus born “from water and spirit.” By the Father's declaration from heaven, ‘This is my Son whom I have approved,’ God announced that he had brought forth a spiritual son having the prospect of entering into the heavenly Kingdom. Later, at Pentecost 33 C.E., other baptized ones received holy spirit and were thus also born again as spiritual sons of God.

If Jesus was not born of the flesh as all human beings are, but was born of a virgin without male semen having been introduced into her uterus, then this would have been the greatest of all miracles, and would have been shouted from the roof tops by all four gospel writers and yet we see that Mark and John ignore the physical birth of Jesus as being totally irrelevant to the story of salvation and begin their account of He who was sent in the name of the Lord, with the Baptism of the man Jesus, when he was born of the spirit that descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, “You are my son, This Day I have begotten thee.” or as is written in the book of Hebrews 5: 5; "You are my son, TODAY I have become your Father."

This verse; Luke 3:22; which now reads; “Thou art my beloved son in whom I am pleased,” was changed by those who want you to believe that Jesus was not born of the flesh by two human parents and Later, on the day of his baptism, born of the spirit of our Lord God and saviour, ‘The Son of MAN’ and the MOST HIGH in the creation, when the spirit of our Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove

In Luke 3: 22; (In place of “Thou art my beloved son in who I am well pleased.”) The following authorities of the second, third, and fourth centuries read, “This day I have begotten thee,” vouched for by Codex D, and the most ancient copies of the old latin (a, b. c. ff.I), by Justin Martyr (AD 140), Clemens Alex, (AD. 190), Methodius (AD. 290), among the Greeks. And among the Latins, Lactaitius (AD 300), Hilary (AD) Juvencus (AD. 330), Faustus (AD. 400) and Augustine. All these oldest manuscripts were changed completely. They now read, “This is my son in whom I am well pleased.” Whereas the original variant was, “Thou art my Son. This day I have begotten thee.”
 

EsonauticSage

Between extremes
My starting point in this thread is a syllogism. Feel free to post your thoughts on its logic and validity.

Here we go:

The LORD (YHWH) is my shepherd [Psalm 23:1]
Jesus Christ is my shepherd [John 10:14]
Therefore, Jesus Christ is the LORD [John 20:28]

More like:

YHWH is my shepherd (Psalm 23:1)
Therefore Jesus Christ must be a false Prophet (John 10:14)
Deuteronomy 13.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Wow...out of my whole post, this is all you want to talk about? o_O Its what you have ignored that is of interest to me....



"A can of worms"???? Really?
Christians do not worship Jesus.....he is "our risen Lord" but he is not The LORD Jehovah.
His title is not his name....."LORD" written in capital letters in the KJV, is an indication that God's name YHWH was substituted with his title (Adonai, Lord)....which simply means “sir,” “owner,” “master”.....it in no way singles out God as the only one who can assume that title. It is not God's name any more than "Sir" or "Master" is a name.

The holy spirit is the application of God's power...who told you it was a person? If you refer to the Greek "parakletos" (helper or comforter) you will see that like French grammar, things can be either masculine or feminine even though gender is not applicable. "Parakletos" is masculine and properly referred to as "he", not because it is a person, but because Greek grammar demands it.

When Jesus was baptized and holy spirit descended upon him, he was thus born “from water and spirit.” By the Father's declaration from heaven, ‘This is my Son whom I have approved,’ God announced that he had brought forth a spiritual son having the prospect of entering into the heavenly Kingdom. Later, at Pentecost 33 C.E., other baptized ones received holy spirit and were thus also born again as spiritual sons of God.



Or in plain English...."A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."

I am having trouble understanding your reasoning here....all I can put it down to is the trinitarian mindset again.
If Jesus was God, then why the need for his question? It would have been a 'given' that he was rightly addressed as "good"....but Jesus asked why the man called him "good" when the superlative belonged to his God alone.

Jesus was 100% human...he had to be in order to pay the "ransom" for mankind. (Matthew 20:28)
If Jesus was God, then he could not die....God is immortal....mere humans cannot kill an immortal. If Jesus did not die, then the ransom was not paid and we are all still condemned and without hope.

What is a ransom? Is it an amount that can be too little or too much? Or is it a set amount based on the value what is being ransomed.
Jesus' life paid for the life that Adam lost for his children. All he had to be was the equivalent of Adam which is why he is called "the last Adam". (1 Corinthians 15:54)



Jesus was not claiming to be [perfectly] good...he said that only God could rightfully have that word applied to him.
If Jesus questioned why the man called him "good", then he was telling him that only God is "good"...so logically, Jesus is NOT God.
The problem with long posts that make multiple points is that discussion becomes diluted and no conclusions are reached.

In my opinion, the most important issue raised in your post is the question of what it means to be a Christian, and whether a Christian serves (or worships) God in Christ. This is very relevant to the thread.

It comes as a shock to me to hear you say that you do not serve Jesus. In my opinion, we serve the Father by serving the Son.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
There is one point I want to focus on here, and that is salvation.....................................
Yes, let's accept 'the clear teaching of our Creator's Inspired scripture' and agree that Jesus Christ is Saviour, because there is only one Saviour, God. The Father is God, and the Son is God.

Before Jesus there was only one Savior, but the God of Jesus (NT) gave all judgement to His Son - please see John 5:22,27.
I find God gives the Resurrection Judgement Power to Jesus - John 5:28 - thus in that sense: Jesus is Savior. Saving the dead from extinction.
The ' voice ' the dead will hear is the Lord's ' voice ' as also found at 1 Thessalonians 4:16 - Jesus' voice.
As LORD/Lord are two (2) different LORD/Lords as found at KJV Psalms 110.
LORD God (Tetragramaton) gives Lord Jesus the power to resurrect the dead.
So, in a differing sense both God and Jesus are: Saviors.
Salvation for the dead comes through Jesus as Savior - Revelation 1:18.
Salvation for the living comes though Jesus as Savior at the soon coming time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40; Revelation 7:9; Revelation 7:14.
Comes through Savior Jesus through his Savior God who resurrected dead Jesus for us - Hebrews 9:24; Revelation 3:12.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If Jesus was not born of the flesh as all human beings are, but was born of a virgin without male semen having been introduced into her uterus, then this would have been the greatest of all miracles, and would have been shouted from the roof tops by all four gospel writers and yet we see that Mark and John ignore the physical birth of Jesus as being totally irrelevant to the story of salvation and begin their account of He who was sent in the name of the Lord, with the Baptism of the man Jesus, when he was born of the spirit that descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, “You are my son, This Day I have begotten thee.” or as is written in the book of Hebrews 5: 5; "You are my son, TODAY I have become your Father."

Do you believe that the gospels were inspired? The four gospels all provide details that the others don’t......combined therefore, they tell one story.

In an age where miracles took place, do you think every miracle was recorded? They were all worthy of being shouted from the rooftops, but the transfer of the life of God’s “only begotten son” from heaven to earth was not a visible event. Only a few knew about it because they were informed by God’s spirit.....Mary was informed personally by Gabriel, but Joseph was informed by an angel in a dream that Mary’s pregnancy was not a product of fornication, but through the operation of God’s spirit.
Mary’ cousin Elizabeth was also informed by God’s spirit as she herself was going to give birth miraculously to John the Baptist.

There is little in the Bible concerning the early childhood of Jesus......the small account of the 12 year old in the temple questioning the teachers, indicates that he was very spiritual even as a youngster, but his childhood as part of a large Jewish family was probably relatively uneventful.

Jesus enters the Bible account primarily at his baptism because that is when he became the “Christ” (anointed one). That was the day that he became God’s son on earth, presenting himself to do the will of his Father, and to enter an intense period of service to his God, knowing that it would result in his death at the hands of his own people.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
More like:
YHWH is my shepherd (Psalms 23:1)
Therefore Jesus Christ must be a false Prophet (John 10:14)
Deuteronomy 13.
Ouch! David lived long before Christ so there is No way Jesus could be David's shepherd at that time.
In the resurrection ( which Resurrection Power was given to Christ by his God ) David will be saved ( resurrected ) by Christ- John 5:22,27-28; Acts 2:34.
David will be 'prince ' and Jesus as ' king ' please see - Isaiah 32 ; Ezekiel 34:24; Psalms 45:16.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
...........It comes as a shock to me to hear you say that you do not serve Jesus. In my opinion, we serve the Father by serving the Son.
I am wondering if he was making a distinction between 'serving' and 'sacred service' to God alone - Luke 4:8 B; Matthew 4:10 B ____________

I suppose in a sense the disciples were ' serving ' Jesus when Jesus told them to ' serve ' the people at Mark 8:4-6 by following Jesus' instructions.

As to worship Jesus is clear as to who to worship ( sacred service) at John 4:23-24 ___________
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The problem with long posts that make multiple points is that discussion becomes diluted and no conclusions are reached.

Feel free to address them individually.....we have no time constraints. I would be interested in hearing your responses to my questions.

In my opinion, the most important issue raised in your post is the question of what it means to be a Christian, and whether a Christian serves (or worships) God in Christ. This is very relevant to the thread.

We believe that the trinity is a blasphemous lie, planted by the “weeds” of Jesus parable in order to subvert worship from the Father to the son.....thus breaking the First Commandment....placing another god in place of the Father, or on equal footing with him. This is why we believe this issue to be so important. No blasphemer has any part in God’s plans for the future.

It comes as a shock to me to hear you say that you do not serve Jesus. In my opinion, we serve the Father by serving the Son.

Because you see Jesus as God incarnate, you cannot imagine the seriousness of this issue. Jesus is “the son of God”....he is never called “God the Son”....nor is the holy spirit ever said to be “God the Holy Spirit”.....not once. But if you are raised to believe that Jesus and his Father are parts of the same God, then it’s no wonder that you balk at the idea that the trinity could be a satanic lie designed to get the faithful to blaspheme without being aware that it’s happening. It’s part of the devil’s MO to break up our relationship with God by deception.....think back to Eden...he hasn’t changed his tactics because they work.

The word “godhead” does not exist in scripture. The trinity concept is not from the Bible, but we do see trinities of gods in paganism.

Jesus invited his disciples to serve their God (“Our Father”) WITH him. He came to lead the “lost sheep” out of a hopelessly corrupted religious system and into a form of worship that was clean and undefined from God’s standpoint. But what he and his apostles started was also foretold to become corrupted, so after the first century, when the last book of the Christian scriptures was penned, the foretold apostasy began to take over “the Church”.
You only have to look at history to see that “Christianity” began to behave in a most unchristian way from that time onwards. This is the church that hatched the trinity, and other doctrines that Christ never taught.
 
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The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Do you believe that the gospels were inspired? The four gospels all provide details that the others don’t......combined therefore, they tell one story.

In an age where miracles took place, do you think every miracle was recorded? They were all worthy of being shouted from the rooftops, but the transfer of the life of God’s “only begotten son” from heaven to earth was not a visible event. Only a few knew about it because they were informed by God’s spirit.....Mary was informed personally by Gabriel, but Joseph was informed by an angel in a dream that Mary’s pregnancy was not a product of fornication, but through the operation of God’s spirit.
Mary’ cousin Elizabeth was also informed by God’s spirit as she herself was going to give birth miraculously to John the Baptist.

There is little in the Bible concerning the early childhood of Jesus......the small account of the 12 year old in the temple questioning the teachers, indicates that he was very spiritual even as a youngster, but his childhood as part of a large Jewish family was probably relatively uneventful.

Jesus enters the Bible account primarily at his baptism because that is when he became the “Christ” (anointed one). That was the day that he became God’s son on earth, presenting himself to do the will of his Father, and to enter an intense period of service to his God, knowing that it would result in his death at the hands of his own people.

Deeje wrote: Jesus enters the Bible account primarily at his baptism because that is when he became the “Christ” (anointed one). That was the day that he became God’s son on earth, presenting himself to do the will of his Father, and to enter an intense period of service to his God, knowing that it would result in his death at the hands of his own people.

Correct! Jesus was born son of God, not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the spirit of our Lord God and savior which descended upon him on the day he was baptised as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my son, This Day I have begotten thee."

In the days of the Apostle Paul, the people were already beginning to fall away from the truth, and following another gospel that was not taught by the word of God or the apostles.

In his 2nd letter to the Corinthians 11: 4; Paul says, “You gladly tolerate anyone who comes to you and preaches a different Jesus, not the one we preached; and you accept a spirit (The Lie) and a gospel completely different from the spirit (Of Truth) and the gospel you received from us.”

So, what was that other gospel that was leading the people away from the truth and away from the Jesus as preached by the Apostles, to another false Jesus?

That gospel was the word of the anti-christ, that refused to acknowledge that Jesus had come as a human being, and instead, they believed that he was a spirit, whose humanlike body was able to pass through Mary’s Hymen without breaking it, and who, like some Hologram, would appear and disappear at will. Even in the later days of John, the false teaching that Jesus was not of the seed of Adam from which every human being who has, or ever will walk this earth, has descended, and had not come as a human being, but as a spiritual being, was already beginning to rear its ugly head, and concerning that evolving falsehood, John had this to say.

1st letter of John 4:1-3; “My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, (My words are spirit) but test them to find out if the spirit [teachings] they have come from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere. This is how you will be able to know if it is Gods spirit/word: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus came as a human being has the spirit who comes from God. But anyone who denies this about Jesus does not have the spirit from God. The spirit that he has is from the enemy of the anointed one, the Anti-christ etc.”

2nd letter of John verses 7-10; “Many deceivers have gone out all over the world, people who do not acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being. Such a person is a deceiver and an enemy of Christ.”

Where would one expect to find the teaching that Jesus was not a true human being, “Born of the seed of Adam” which has been spread ALL OVER THE WORLD.

In Alexandria, by the second century, ‘Docetism,’ the concept that Jesus had existed as a spirit rather than a human being, had all but theoretically been stamped out. But still, there persisted the belief that their Jesus, although seen as a sort of human being, did not have our normal bodily needs, such as eating, drinking and excretion, and Clement the bishop of Alexandria, wrote: “It would be ridiculous to imagine that the redeemer, in order to exist, had the usual needs of man. He only took food and ate it in order that we should not teach about him in a Docetic fashion.”

Their Jesus was not the Jesus as taught by the apostles, but that other Jesus, taught by the Anti-Christ, who unlike we mere HUMAN BEINGS, did not need to eat, drink, or go to the toilet, as was taught by one of the great teachers that the authorities of Emperor Constantine’s universal church, used as one of their authorities when trying to defend their false doctrines.

Saint Clement of Alexandria, who was a saint in the Martyrology of the Roman universal church, in support of the great lie, speaks of the time that some imaginary midwife, who was supposed to be at the birth of Jesus, (Non-biblical) told some woman by the name Salome, that the mother was still a virgin after the birth and that her hymen was still intact, and that this supposed Salome, stuck her finger into the mother’s vagina to check, and her hand immediately withered up, but the baby Jesus reached out and touched her hand and healed it.

Clement was accepted as a saint in the universal church, which was established by Emperor Constantine, from a rag-tag group of insult hurling religious bodies, who called themselves christians. Eventually, sick to the stomach with their constant quarreling and abuse toward each other, Constantine summoned all the leaders of those groups to the first ever "World Council of churches," where, in 325 AD, some 300 years after the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ had been firmly established in Jerusalem, the non-christian, and almost certainly theologically illiterate Constantine, established his universal church, which has nothing to do with the Jesus as taught by the apostles.

Down to the 17th century Clement was venerated as a saint. His name was to be found in the Martyrologies, and his feast fell on December 4. But when the Roman Martyrology was revised by Clement VIII (Pope from 1592 to 1605), his name was dropped from the calendar on the advice of his confessor, Cardinal Baronius. Pope Benedict XIV in 1748 maintained his predecessor's decision on the grounds that Clements life was little-known; that he had never obtained public cultus in the Church; and that some of his doctrines were, if not erroneous, at least highly suspect.

"ERRONEOUS--HIGHLY SUSPECT," they certainly got that right, but by then the false teaching of the so-called virgin birth had become firmly established in the minds of the gullible, whose minds are now all mixed up and set as hard as concrete that one would need a sledge hammer to crack them open and allow the Light of God's truth to shine in..
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Correct! Jesus was born son of God, not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the spirit of our Lord God and savior which descended upon him on the day he was baptised as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my son, This Day I have begotten thee."
So you are saying that Mary had a child with a human father and that Jesus was "begotten" by God only at his baptism?
That is an interesting concept but it does not fit in with the prophesies concerning Jesus nor with the accounts about his conception in Matthew and Luke. Why do you dismiss the gospel accounts? Is the Bible the word of God or not? You can't pick and choose bits that suit your views....it either all is...or it all isn't "inspired by God". (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

If Jesus was a mere son of Adam, then he did not have the price in himself to pay the ransom demanded by God's law.....which indicated that equivalency was needed to cancel a debt.

The debt that Adam left for his children (sin and death) could only be paid by a sinless human being offering his life in exchange. None of Adam's children were sinless. This is why God had to send his trusted son into the world through a virgin birth, so as to produce a sinless man....born of a woman (making him Jewish) but not conceived in the natural way. (meaning he was not a sinful son of Adam.)

So, what was that other gospel that was leading the people away from the truth and away from the Jesus as preached by the Apostles, to another false Jesus?

That gospel was the word of the anti-christ, that refused to acknowledge that Jesus had come as a human being, and instead, they believed that he was a spirit, whose humanlike body was able to pass through Mary’s Hymen without breaking it, and who, like some Hologram, would appear and disappear at will. Even in the later days of John, the false teaching that Jesus was not of the seed of Adam from which every human being who has, or ever will walk this earth, has descended, and had not come as a human being, but as a spiritual being, was already beginning to rear its ugly head

It was the Catholic Church who made Jesus into an incarnated god. No such god exists in scripture. The anti-Christ was already at work when the apostles were alive......so after they died, the foretold apostasy rose rather rapidly and spread like gangrene. By the 4th century, all was ripe for the introduction of Constantine's Roman inspired church, incorporating all manner of pagan concepts, cloaked in a thin veneer of Christianity.

Those raised with those God-dishonoring doctrines are not aware that the devil was the one who planted those seeds of apostasy, introducing all manner of false teachings. He corrupted Christianity just as thoroughly as he had corrupted Judaism. We are told to remove ourselves from that rabble. (Revelation 18:4-5)

Where would one expect to find the teaching that Jesus was not a true human being, “Born of the seed of Adam” which has been spread ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Jesus was not the seed of sinful Adam, but was born as a sinless human in the line of King David, of the tribe of Judah as it was prophesied. His life was an exchange for ours....a perfect sinless life was lost for all of Adam's children, and a perfect sinless life was offered to redeem them. There was no way for Jesus to be a sinful son of Adam...he was the sinless son of God...literally created by him through transference from the spirit realm to the earthly one. Joseph was not his natural father....Jehovah was.

"ERRONEOUS--HIGHLY SUSPECT," they certainly got that right, but by then the false teaching of the so-called virgin birth had become firmly established in the minds of the gullible, whose minds are now all mixed up and set as hard as concrete that one would need a sledge hammer to crack them open and allow the Light of God's truth to shine in..

The virgin birth is not a false teaching....it explains exactly why Jesus had to be born of a virgin. It proves that no human was his father.

I see your scenario is full of holes....but so close sometimes.....:(
I ask again...are these your personal beliefs or do you have a brotherhood who shares it? This is important for a number of reasons.
 
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