Aha! So you are the final arbiter about which bits of the Bible are right (or true), and wrong (or false)! That explains a bunch.
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If God exists can evil also exist?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Hermit Philosopher
Selflessly here for you
Ah, I see... I did not realise that that was your question. That was not the question I was contemplating. I apologise.
Humbly,
Hermit
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, that is not nit-picky. I believe we can know some of God's attributes but that does not mean we can know the Essence of God
There is some overlap between our views on morality and God's views on morality, since over the ages, God has revealed His views on morality through His Messengers; so hopefully His views align with our views if we read scriptures. However, God is not a human being, so God is not subject to being moral. God, the standard-setter, is not subject to human standards, as God is Infallible.
And another problem: God knew that it was in the best interest of Joseph Stalin to die quickly of a cerebral hemorrhage, and for Joan of Arc to die in the agonies of being burned to death -- smoke and heat going up her nostrils into her lungs, the flames licking at her feet and legs, burning her clothing and caressing her privates, reaching upward and upward, ...I'd love to go on, but lack the literary skill to do justice to the image
.Strange god you believe in...
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I said "I think." I did not say I was the final arbiter.Aha! So you are the final arbiter about which bits of the Bible are right (or true), and wrong (or false)! That explains a bunch.
And whether I am right or wrong would depend upon what is meant by "create evil."
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: God does not owe it to you to grant you anything, just because God is omnipotent.
Koldo said: I agree. I have never said otherwise.
You did say otherwise.
You said: What I have said is that said is that suffering is unnecessary to learn anything since knowledge can be granted with omnipotence.
That implies that God owes it to you to grant you a life free of suffering. Do you want to retract your statement?
What was that?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
An omnipotent God does not have to justify anything to you.
If you cannot figure out why, I suggest you take a course in logic.
Ain't that the truth. And what God wants is not what you want.
Hopefully, you can do the math.
You, a mere human, cannot know what is necessary for God to achieve what He wants for humans.
That an argument from ignorance because you cannot possibly ever know that suffering is unnecessary to achieve anything.
Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,
- true
- false
- unknown between true or false
- being unknowable (among the first three).[1]
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God has to be Omnipotent but God does not have to me Omnibenevolent.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Do you have to know everything about God in order to know that God exists? What would you have to know?
I was referring specifically to life and death. Even if God does not exist, and we take a humanistic perspective, there would still be life and death.
However, from my perspective as a believer, there would be no life if God did not exist, and then there would also be no death, because life and death go hand in hand
I suspect the idea in the mind of the author of that part of Isaiah was facing up to the monotheistic theology of the post-Captivity Jews. If there is only one God, and [he]'s in charge, then of course [he] creates everything, good, bad, ugly and don't know.
As for arguing against the verb 'creates', the idea of omnipotence entails total responsibility for everything that ever happens. An omnipotent god, if [he]'s not already omniscient, has only to snap [his] omnipotent fingers to become so; and being omniscient, must have foreseen the entire future of the universe, in perfect detail, before [he] created it. Hence the only way evil can exist is exactly in accordance with the will of such a god.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I said that God knows what is in our best interest, but that does not mean we always get what is in our best interest.... Free will is the fly in the ointment as what we CHOOSE is not always in our best interest.And another problem: God knew that it was in the best interest of Joseph Stalin to die quickly of a cerebral hemorrhage, and for Joan of Arc to die in the agonies of being burned to death -- smoke and heat going up her nostrils into her lungs, the flames licking at her feet and legs, burning her clothing and caressing her privates, reaching upward and upward, ...I'd love to go on, but lack the literary skill to do justice to the image
I believe in Him, but I do not always like Him, and I am even further from loving Him.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God gave us free will so we are responsible for what we choose to do.
Everything else God is responsible for.
That is true, because God allows evil to exist.
Gandalf
Horn Tooter
Why on earth are people still stuck up on am omnibenevolent god being the the ultimate definition of the thing in itself. What has omnibenevolence got to do with anything? That is a seemingly impossible concept to have since it would mean a special prioritization over other things then there would be the proving of our superiority above all others. The whole concept altogether is ludicrous.
As Dan Dennett points out, there is a sense in which will can be free ─ that is, the brain can decide to choose A or to choose B, without external constraint or compulsion, or in spite of that.
But there's no way the brain can be free of its own biological decision-making mechanisms, which are highly honed by evolution, but still work by complex interacting chains of cause+effect (possibly interrupted at times by events at the quantum level that are truly random in the classical sense).
If there's an omnipotent god, evil can only exist because [he] wills it to exist.
Strange place to be! You ascribe to God the ultimate arbitration of everything, then you don't know if you like it or not.I said that God knows what is in our best interest, but that does not mean we always get what is in our best interest.... Free will is the fly in the ointment as what we CHOOSE is not always in our best interest.
I believe in Him, but I do not always like Him, and I am even further from loving Him.
Trust me, atheism is infinitely easier than that!
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is different because death is not the end of life for humans, and it might not be the end for animals either, nobody knows.
A life without any suffering is not possible in this world, because this is a material world, and all suffering comes from the material world.
“In this world we are influenced by two sentiments, Joy and Pain…..
There is no human being untouched by these two influences; but all the sorrow and the grief that exist come from the world of matter—the spiritual world bestows only the joy!
If we suffer it is the outcome of material things, and all the trials and troubles come from this world of illusion.
For instance, a merchant may lose his trade and depression ensues. A workman is dismissed and starvation stares him in the face. A farmer has a bad harvest, anxiety fills his mind. A man builds a house which is burnt to the ground and he is straightway homeless, ruined, and in despair.
All these examples are to show you that the trials which beset our every step, all our sorrow, pain, shame and grief, are born in the world of matter; whereas the spiritual Kingdom never causes sadness. A man living with his thoughts in this Kingdom knows perpetual joy. The ills all flesh is heir to do not pass him by, but they only touch the surface of his life, the depths are calm and serene……..
You see all around you proofs of the inadequacy of material things—how joy, comfort, peace and consolation are not to be found in the transitory things of the world. Is it not then foolishness to refuse to seek these treasures where they may be found? The doors of the spiritual Kingdom are open to all, and without is absolute darkness…...
Thus, spirituality is the greatest of God’s gifts, and ‘Life Everlasting’ means ‘Turning to God’. May you, one and all, increase daily in spirituality, may you be strengthened in all goodness, may you be helped more and more by the Divine consolation, be made free by the Holy Spirit of God, and may the power of the Heavenly Kingdom live and work among you.”
Paris Talks, pp. 109-111
After we die I believe we go to a spiritual world and the kind of suffering we experience in this world (loss of income, accidents, injuries, and diseases) is no longer possible, but there could be another kind of suffering, torment of the soul that had lived for self and passion rather than caring about others and the state of the world.
“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159
The passage says we must be faithful to God which implies a belief in God, but I do not believe that belief in God is absolutely necessary to be free of suffering in the next life. Having lead a moral and unselfish life is just this side of heaven, and we can continue to progress in the next life. I am not suggesting that not believing in God is a good idea, I am just painting the worst case scenario.
Baha’is believe that Messengers have been sent to humans ever since the dawn of human history, long before the art of writing was invented. Obviously they had to communicate in some other way.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Probably because of the Bible. That book seems to set all the standards for God.
I am certainly not stuck on an omnibenevolent God definition.
I think it is silly to define God as anything but omnipotent and omniscient.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not think our will is completely free in the sense that we can choose anything we want to choose because free will has constraints, because there are many factors that cause us to choose what we choose (e.g., childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances.) It is the combination of these factors that will determine what we will choose to do.
No, I do not buy that. Saying it is God's will to allow evil to exist is not the same as saying God wills it to exist. If humans will it then it exists by virtue of human will.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
You haven't answered my question. What does it mean for something to be in my best interest then?
What is this 'best interest' supposed to mean at least abstractively?
Could my utmost suffering for all eternity be in my best interest, for instance? Why?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is a strange place to be, and not a pleasant place.
Every time we have one of those 'God discussions' my husband says I should become an atheist and get it over with, but I can no more become an atheist than an atheist can become a believer... One either believes that God exists or not, and once you believe there is no going back without risking the displeasure of God, and given God is All-Powerful, that is a pretty scary thought.