Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
What do you understand the passage to be saying?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The LORD is my shepherd
- Thread starter Redemptionsong
- Start date
What do you understand the passage to be saying?
To me it appears messianic. The Messiah is going to destroy the evil kingdoms signified by the beasts.
I say, 'to me' as this whole set of passages is very contested. I don't want anyone to think I'm pushing some kind of normative view. I know this is Rashi's interpretation, however.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
What do you understand is happening in verse 13?
Daniel is being shown the future Messiah.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Is the Messiah going to the Ancient of Days, or coming from the Ancient of Days?
'...and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.'
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Where in Jewish thought, or in Jewish teaching about the Messiah, does a Son of man ascend to heaven with the clouds?
This is a vision. It's representative. The various empires are represented by animals; they are not obviously actual animals. It's symbolism.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Yes, the empires are symbolised by beasts; the same empires as depicted in the dream of Nebuchadnezzar [Daniel 2:31-45].
But the argument I present is this: At the time of Daniel's writing there was no precedent for a Son of man ascending to heaven with the clouds. Rashi, and others, struggle to provide an interpretation of the things that are seen in the night visions. But Jesus provides the perfect interpretation. And, since there has been no event like it in the history of mankind, he alone matches the prophecy.
74x12
Well-Known Member
It's love manifesting itself. The ultimate expression of love is to die for who you love. This is why God had to die. According to 1 Peter 1:19-20 Jesus death was foreordained before the foundation of the world. So it was always part of the plan.
Misty Woods
A Child of Our Almighty Creator Jehovah
From reading all of your previous posts, it seems that you are certainly trying hard to promote the pagan trinity teachings, of which, I personally have never found any such confusing teaching within the Holy Scriptures..... You have now brought up here, Mark 1:11,,, so my question to you is,, If Jesus is in fact GOD, then exactly whose voice came from the heavens, stating ' This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased'? ..... With all due respect, people that insist on pushing this pagan trinity teaching, only cause people that are ignorant of the Scriptures to look at Jesus as some sort of vane schizophrenic,,,, so my next question is,, Which is wiser?? To make the clear statements of scripture conform to our imperfect human conceptions of what may be implied??? OR to believe the clear teaching of our Creator's Inspired Scripture, and accept that these perceived implications might be due to our misunderstanding of scripture or completely in error????
Because Psalms 90:2 informs us that God is 'from everlasting to everlasting' then God can Not die.
Nowhere do I read that God sent Himself to Earth, but that God sent His pre-human heavenly Son to Earth for us.
Who is the' first of all creation' as mentioned at Colossians 1:15__________________
1 Peter 1:19-20 is speaking about (Not the planet Earth) but the ' foundation of the world of 'righteous mankind' as Jesus expresses at Matthew 23:35; Luke 11:51
So, I find the foundation or founding of the world beginning with -> righteous Abel.
Remember: the first prophecy of Genesis 3:15 was expressed ' after ' the fall of Adam and Eve, so the hope starts with righteous Abel.
Only if the death was necessary and unavoidable. Needlessly letting yourself be killed isn't an expression of love.
And if being killed was necessary, then Jesus/God/whoever isn't as good a shepherd as a shepherd who can do a good job without dying.
Makes no sense at all.
In context, this is not speaking about individuals but to the brotherhood in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca.
He was speaking about the congregation...'the spirit, the soul and the body' of that congregation.
This has nothing to do with a trinity or else Paul could not have said....."For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (1 Thessalonians 8:5-6 ESV) There is no mention of the holy spirit as in the majority of cases where Jesus and the Father are mentioned together. (As also in John 1:1) So how is there a trinity of co-eternal, co-equal parts of one God when the third party is MIA?
Recognizing the Father, son and holy spirit are necessary.....but combining them in one "godhead" finds no support at all the Bible. Can you provide one instance where Jesus or his Father referred to Jesus as "God the Son"?....and to "God the Holy Spirit"? Search carefully...you will not find a single one. Jesus calls his Father "God" but I cannot find one time when the Father called the son "God"...or indicated that the holy spirit was a person.
Isaiah was God's prophet speaking on behalf of his God.....Jehovah sending his prophets and his son , as well as his holy spirit are found in all of scripture.....but never was the holy spirit spoken of as a separate part of God. The holy spirit emanates from God....it is the application of his power...the means by which his will is accomplished. It is applied in due measure, not too little...not too much, as was the case with Moses having difficulty managing the nation of Israel. God told him to select 70 qualified men to act as his assistants....God took "some of the spirit" that was on Moses and divided it up between the 70.
Numbers 11:24-25....
"So Moses went out and told the people the words of the Lord. And he gathered seventy men of the elders of the people and placed them around the tent. 25 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and took some of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. And as soon as the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied".
If God could take "some of the spirit" that was with Moses and give it to 70 others, how can the holy spirit possibly be one entity? If it is the application of God's power, then it makes sense.
He actually never stopped being "the Word". Even on earth he spoke in the name of his God and Father. The Logos was always God's spokesman...the one who spoke God's words to his people. He was a glorious spirit creature, his Father's firstborn, who humbled himself to take on human form and give his life for us. He did not have to be God in order to cancel Adam's debt.....he just had to offer an equivalent "life for a life" to redeem the now sinful human race.
The very thought of the Creator of the universe coming to earth as a mere mortal is pretty ridiculous to anyone who knows the Bible. God has servants who are in constant attendance upon him.....Jesus too is referred to as God's servant. (Acts 3:13) How can God be his own servant?
I guess that is one important area where JW's completely divide off from the rest of Christendom....it never made sense to me growing up in church, and my sense of logic was always fighting with this, as it made no sense. Then as I studied the Bible, it was revealed to be a complete blasphemy....substituting another god in place of the true God. (John 17:3; Exodus 20:3) I began to understand the influence of the "weeds" of Jesus' parable to completely corrupt Jesus' teachings, as it was foretold.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Think like love personified before there was anything else; ethereal and not manifest because there is no way to express yourself; therefore you can't be at rest. You are unfulfilled. So, when given the chance; as love you can't really help yourself. You become expressed in your most perfect form. Which is why God had to die for us.
It was necessary that someone died to save Adam. Let's forget all humans for a moment; except Adam and Eve. Because (scripturally speaking) we are all extensions of them. Really, even Eve is an extension of Adam because she came from him. So we collectively are "adam" and are mortal because we ate from the tree of knowledge rather than the tree of life. You could talk about symbolism because it has symbolism. But that's not my point. My point is that Adam needs to be rescued from mortality. So that's why Jesus had to die like his creature(Adam) dies. Because that's the only way to bring in the resurrection from death. And so when Jesus rose from death; He didn't do it for Himself. He did it so that Adam could also be raised immortal also.
But none of that is really my main point here. That's just the story. The backdrop or the setting for love to be manifest within. And love is manifest in many ways in our lives; but love had one manifestation which was the greatest manifestation. And it was to be joined with it's own creation forever. The symbolism of this is marriage. (Genesis 2:24) And Adam is believed to have eaten the forbidden fruit knowing he would die; because he loved Eve and didn't want to be separated from her. So there is love again.
My point is that love being what it is; must express itself. I believe none of this can be helped or altered. It has to happen as much as anything must happen. Like a chemical reaction. So God must be expressed. God chose to express Himself in this creation. This expression is what gives God rest (like equilibrium) and is the purpose of creation. That's the marriage of masculine and feminine (creating shared love) which makes the balance necessary for rest/equilibrium. Remember God said everything was good and rested on the 7th day? So that's the whole point of creation.
So Adam was masculine and feminine at first; but then separated into Adam and Eve to create the necessary conditions for marriage(union) which would give rest. Because before this Adam probably looked through the whole garden for a suitable "helpmate". So, God's the same way with the creation. But what does Eve do? She gets them both kicked out of the garden. And so they are in trouble now because of love. Being cast out of Eden is like how we must go through trouble and work the ground free of thorns to gain true love; before we can return to the garden and rest. That's why marriage is hard. And remember what guards the way back into the garden? A cherubim with a flaming sword. Which means there is no way back but to die. This means people kill a part of themselves to make their partner happy. And often it needed to go anyway like a thorny plant that is not good in your garden. Because they're trying to regrow Eden in the wilderness. Just as God wants to do within us.
But this flaming sword is why Jesus died (with a crown of thorns btw). To make a way back into the garden for Adam. That's why creation is so messy right now and going through a lot of pain as it "dies" along with Jesus on the cross; so it can be raised to new life and immortality. (why God said "I make all things new") So love will be a reality because it's expressed and shared.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Of course God can't die that's why it says "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared me;" (Hebrews 10:5) So, God needed a mortal body for Jesus to die as the sacrifice. That's why John the baptist says "behold the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world" when he saw Jesus.
As for the firstborn of all creation it's Jesus. But, to be born you need a birth. For example Adam wasn't born; he was formed from the dust of the ground. The angels weren't born, they were made of spirit and flames of fire. (Hebrews 1:7) But Jesus was born. So what womb was it? (Luke 1:35)
I believe the "Foundation of the world (or ages)" is speaking of the 6 days of creation. This is when I believe all the ages of the world were set in order and so before this Jesus was foreordained to die and rise from the dead. This I believe is Genesis 1:3. Here we see that the light shines in the darkness. Just compare to John chapter 1. The Light is the light of life that overcomes the "shadow of death" (Isaiah 9:1-2, Matthew 4:14-16) which is the darkness over all the peoples. (Isaiah 60:2) Which is the sentence of death on us all and the light of life is the power over death. The resurrection power. And so death is swallowed up in victory. God says "let there be light" and it's called day. Just like Jesus is called the day star and the Bright and morning star. The deep represents people and nations. The light shining on the face of the deep means death is overcome and they have hope.
So all creation is made in 6 periods of the light and hope of the resurrection of Jesus Christ shining. The 7th day(or period of the light shining) is when it's all finished and creation is founded on the chief cornerstone that is laid in Zion. So this day never ends and God's rest lasts forever. Because the new heaven and earth are built on Jesus Christ so they'll last forever unlike this present heaven and earth which will "melt with a fervent heat".
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Hello, Misty. Thanks for raising this important question.
I'm not out to add, or take away, from God's inspired word. I simply want to understand the meaning that God intended for His own words.
I believe God reveals Himself to mankind. How does the LORD do this if not through his Word, his Son? [Rev. 19:13]
When the Spirit of God came to dwell in the body of Jesus [at baptism], was God coming to earth? This is the question that challenges all who read the New Testament. How would you answer it?
Yes, I'm very familiar with all this. What does it have to do with what we were talking about?
Although he did speak to the whole of the congregation, in this verse he isn't. Having had a course in one God vs Godhead (Father, The Word, The Holy Spirit) they indeed are one and yet separate. There is one Father, one Lord Jesus Christ (although Lord God the Father is also Lord) back to oneness - you just can't separate them
Again, you are equating The Word before manifesting in the flesh as if when manifested in the flesh nothing change. An error. Even the Pharisees said that Jesus made himself equal with God and wanted to kill him for it. And when in Isaiah it said "my Spirit" it can't be any clearer. And through it all Jesus said "don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit" - making the Holy Spirit quite equal to him and the Father. The Comforter is the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. Life and light are God - Jesus is the life and the light to the world. God is our salvation - Jesus is our salvation. God Shalom is our peace - Jesus is our peace. God is our righteousness, Jesus is our righteousness.
How do you separate it all?
He is more than just the application of his power, He is our teacher, our comforter, our guide. He leads us, talks to us and shows us things to come.
How can he be one entity? How can God be everywhere at once? How can God hear all the prayers? How can God be on the throne and yet be on earth?
I think you have placed God in a small box.
If anyone studied deeply the Bible, one would see that only God could redeem mankind. An angel could not take on the sins of the world and still remain solvent enough to pull mankind out of the pollution of sin.
guess that is one important area where JW's completely divide off from the rest of Christendom....it never made sense to me growing up in church, and my sense of logic was always fighting with this, as it made no sense. Then as I studied the Bible, it was revealed to be a complete blasphemy....substituting another god in place of the true God. (John 17:3; Exodus 20:3) I began to understand the influence of the "weeds" of Jesus' parable to completely corrupt Jesus' teachings, as it was foretold.
That is a matter of perspective. One could say that you are presenting a different gospel.
But I remain in peace with you.