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dad

Undefeated
You use the Bible like it is garbage.
I do not find that actually trying to believe it is garbage. Sorry. For the lurkers sake here tell us what you think of Eve and whether you believe she was a real woman taken from a real man's bone? Be honest. Let lurkers decide who trashes the bible.

You don't support your claims.
History and the bible are support. Science cannot weigh in one way of the other. Yet you claim science knows? Post the proof.
A very important detail that no one misses. Science is supported by the evidence.
Yet you cannot post a solitary piece here. Funny that. Lurkers, what is going on here is that this poster confuses beliefs with evidence.

Run.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
It is not intelligent to pretend you made a case for your so called science when you failed. Link?

Why should I bother when you have shown time and time again that you will ignore it? Rational discussion with you is not possible. I won't waste my time attempting it.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I have never seen any evidence that God and science are in in sync one to the other.

Rely on/believe what you like.

It never stops spouting fables as if they were certainties.



Poof.


No doubt they will grasp at the straws of beliefs in their little bag to come up with 'explanations'. That is what they do.

.
You can call beliefs whatever you like. It is what it is.

As you have demonstrated so well in this thread and have shown such antipathy toward science, you are never likely to make the necessary effort to learn and understand anything about it. It is as if you are wilfully uneducated.

In the normal way this would not matter to anyone else at all. but when writing as an authority on a thread such as this, it is like a heretic teaching religion to the angelic host.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
If time were different outside than inside how do you think you would experience time inside?

It would be the same inside, but what we observe from outside would be either slower or faster, depending on how time is outside. For example, if time slowed half as fast outside, the events we see from outside would take twice as long as they do here.

Frequency in the fishbowl shows time in the fishbowl.

But the fact that it came from outside the fishbowl shows that time is the same out there. For example, if time were slower outside the fishbowl, the frequency of the light would be different out there, which would mean that the spectral lines for hydrogen would not match up in our observations inside.

You taint all out with in.

Huh?

Frawing a line on paper does not make time itseld in deep space equal to here.

No, but the fact that the results are consistent does. if space were different 'out there', then as the light comes to us, it would get distorted and we could notice those distortions.

You have no clock anywhere else. You are on fishbowl time!

Yes, we do have clocks other places. Pulsars, for example, or decays of radioactive elements, or even basic processes that we know how long take *here* and find that they take the same amount of time when we watch them other places.

No distances, and no time unless the time we have here is the same and you have no idea whether it is or not.

Again, denialism. if they were different outside, we would see distortions as the light comes to us. The fact that we do not see such distortions shows that space and time are the same out there as in here. In other words, there is no fishbowl.

Time in the fishbowl is where frequent(cy) is seen.

But originating from outside, and the frequencies match. There is no reason for hydrogen outside the fishbowl to emit light (frequency) that gets to us as the frequency we measure *unless* conditions out there are the same as here.

There is no fishbowl.

You cannot analyze time outside the fishbowl. Only in it. You have nothing to compare your filter to.

Absolutely, we do. Take an event that happened outside and they we see the light for inside. The sequence of events that we see from the light matches in order and in time what happens for events here. That can only happen if the time out there is the same as the time here. Otherwise there would be recognizable distortions with which to analyze the differences.

In what way?

So, suppose a sequence of events takes twice as long out there as here. That means that the light gets to us, inside, over a period twice as long as the same sequence here. That would tell us that time goes slower outside. We don't see such happening. Then, the fact, the light reflecting off nearby gas clouds takes the expected amount of time for the parallax seen (here) and the time (here), shows that space and time both work the same out there.

You only ever and always look at all things IN the fishbowl so that is the results you have.

But, again, the stuff we have here gives information about what is happening out there. The fact that we don't see distortions in either space nor time (which would be obvious if there was a fishbowl), shows that there is no fishbowl at all.

You cannot estimate time and space that is different from ours by looking at bent light here!

Not if we only look at a single case, no. But if we look at multiple cases across the sky and see events happening at the same rate and parallax giving consistent results, that is quite sufficient to eliminate your proposed fishbowl.
 

dad

Undefeated
It would be the same inside,
How would you know you have never been out? You assume time exists out as it does in.

but what we observe from outside would be either slower or faster, depending on how time is outside. For example, if time slowed half as fast outside, the events we see from outside would take twice as long as they do here.
False. If time and space exist as they do here, regardless of any difference anywhere else, we would always see time here. If time and space existed differently out there, that would not mean it existed that way here. What you see from outside is inside!

But the fact that it came from outside the fishbowl shows that time is the same out there. For example, if time were slower outside the fishbowl, the frequency of the light would be different out there, which would mean that the spectral lines for hydrogen would not match up in our observations inside.
There is no out there as far as we are concerned in the fishbowl. All light streaming in then exists here in our time. That doesn't tell us what time elsewhere is like. Fast or slow it is the way it exists here.


No, but the fact that the results are consistent does. if space were different 'out there', then as the light comes to us, it would get distorted and we could notice those distortions.
Says who? You think time distorts light? We do not know that. A different space also is not known so you cannot claim distortion. If there was any distortion it might look normal to us anyhow here.

Yes, we do have clocks other places. Pulsars, for example, or decays of radioactive elements, or even basic processes that we know how long take *here* and find that they take the same amount of time when we watch them other places.
False. The clock is time unfolding/existing and we only see time exist here. Whatever time may be involved out there does not relate to here unless time and space are the same.

Again, denialism. if they were different outside, we would see distortions as the light comes to us.
Why pretend you know things when you don't? How would you know what a change in time itself and/or space itself would look like here?

But originating from outside, and the frequencies match.
It is all seen here. The frequencies are seen here. Not there. We experience waves and light and all things only here in the fishbowl. Nowhere else ever. If a wave has a time interval or frequency that is only seen here. If we see a star pulse or blink over time, that time we see it in is here. Not there.
There is no reason for hydrogen outside the fishbowl to emit light (frequency) that gets to us as the frequency we measure *unless* conditions out there are the same as here.
The frequency is seen here only. It exists here.
Example:

"Light waves also come in many frequencies. The frequency is the number of waves that pass a point in space during any time interval, usually one second. We measure it in units of cycles (waves) per second, or hertz."

How Light Works

In other words we see light coming in here in the fishbowl in our time and it is HERE that it is clocked!

Absolutely, we do. Take an event that happened outside and they we see the light for inside. The sequence of events that we see from the light matches in order and in time what happens for events here.
How would you know what matches what? It matches what we expect here, that is all we know. You have nothing to compare it to since you have only one point of reference and observation.
That can only happen if the time out there is the same as the time here. Otherwise there would be recognizable distortions with which to analyze the differences.
You made that up. How would you know what time itself would do or 'look' like if it was different? Do you think you can see time?
So, suppose a sequence of events takes twice as long out there as here. That means that the light gets to us, inside, over a period twice as long as the same sequence here. That would tell us that time goes slower outside.
We have no way of knowing how long anything takes outside the fishbowl. All we can know is how much of our time things take once something arrives here! That says NOTHING about time out there. If light from the edge of the observed universe took, say, one hour to get to earth (!) when it did get here, we would see it moving in OUR time, and slow compared to that. We may be looking at things in real time out there, in effect, rather than billions of years ago.

Then, the fact, the light reflecting off nearby gas clouds takes the expected amount of time for the parallax seen (here) and the time (here), shows that space and time both work the same out there.
There is no nearby anything. We do not know how far away a star or supposed gas cloud is. Regardless, all time experienced is here.
Give an example.


But, again, the stuff we have here gives information about what is happening out there.
Some info. Not what you thought though. No distances or mass or sizes or time or travel etc.

Not if we only look at a single case, no. But if we look at multiple cases across the sky and see events happening at the same rate and parallax giving consistent results
Of course you would see things take consistent time here where you see the light.
 

dad

Undefeated
demonstrated so well in this thread and have shown such antipathy toward science, you are never likely to make the necessary effort to learn and understand anything about it. It is as if you are wilfully uneducated.
What we need to understand to be educated is that origin science claims are a religious crock, and not worthy of belief or wasting time studying. The fables show antipathy toward the truth and bible.

In the normal way this would not matter to anyone else at all. but when writing as an authority on a thread such as this, it is like a heretic teaching religion to the angelic host.
The false science fable tellers are not good angels of light, or representing them.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
How would you know you have never been out? You assume time exists out as it does in.

You misread my response to you.

False. If time and space exist as they do here, regardless of any difference anywhere else, we would always see time here. If time and space existed differently out there, that would not mean it existed that way here. What you see from outside is inside!

The question is the transition between inside and outside of the fishbowl. We know information is coming in. And that information says something about conditions outside. Think of it like this.

Suppose that events happen outside, A->B->C and these take twice as long as inside. The light from A, B, and C is delayed by the amount of time between those events outside. So, when it gets inside, it is *still* shows the *outside* time intervals in what we see here. The events would *look* to be twice as long between the events A, B, and C as they would be for the same events inside.

There is no out there as far as we are concerned in the fishbowl. All light streaming in then exists here in our time. That doesn't tell us what time elsewhere is like. Fast or slow it is the way it exists here.

Well, the light doesn't suddenly appear at the boundary of the fishbowl, does it? It comes from outside and can be used to probe the conditions outside. A fish in a fishbowl can still see the distortions produced by the bowl.

Says who? You think time distorts light? We do not know that. A different space also is not known so you cannot claim distortion. If there was any distortion it might look normal to us anyhow here.

The light has a frequency. If time is different, or non-existent, the light would be different (by having a different frequency or none at all). That produces a distortion.

False. The clock is time unfolding/existing and we only see time exist here. Whatever time may be involved out there does not relate to here unless time and space are the same.

No, it relates to what is inside of here because the light we see inside comes from outside. There is a causal link between the two. And, we can actually watch changes in things outside over time. That time is measured here, of course, but the rates are of the things outside.

Why pretend you know things when you don't? How would you know what a change in time itself and/or space itself would look like here?

Why pretend we don't know things when we do? We can, and do, measure the effects of gravity on space and time *here* and so see the distortions on space and time produced by gravity.

It is all seen here. The frequencies are seen here. Not there. We experience waves and light and all things only here in the fishbowl. Nowhere else ever. If a wave has a time interval or frequency that is only seen here. If we see a star pulse or blink over time, that time we see it in is here. Not there.

But that light was formed there. And it was formed in such a way that we see what we see here. The causal link allows us to determine information about the outside, including that there is no distortion and no problems finding distances and times.

The frequency is seen here only. It exists here.
Example:

"Light waves also come in many frequencies. The frequency is the number of waves that pass a point in space during any time interval, usually one second. We measure it in units of cycles (waves) per second, or hertz."

How Light Works

In other words we see light coming in here in the fishbowl in our time and it is HERE that it is clocked!

And yet it was produced out there in such a way that it becomes what we measure here. That connection limits the possibilities of what is out there.

How would you know what matches what? It matches what we expect here, that is all we know. You have nothing to compare it to since you have only one point of reference and observation.

False. The fact that light from out there matches what we expect for hydrogen in here says that, somehow, the light produced out there manages to look like that from hydrogen in here. And *that* means that the properties of the hydrogen (or whatever) out there match what we see in here (otherwise the light from out there could be *anything*, but it still matches what we see in here).

You made that up. How would you know what time itself would do or 'look' like if it was different? Do you think you can see time?

We can model how differences in the nature of time would affect our observations. For example, if time flowed faster out there, it would show up in the records the light from there would show here.

We have no way of knowing how long anything takes outside the fishbowl. All we can know is how much of our time things take once something arrives here! That says NOTHING about time out there. If light from the edge of the observed universe took, say, one hour to get to earth (!) when it did get here, we would see it moving in OUR time, and slow compared to that. We may be looking at things in real time out there, in effect, rather than billions of years ago.

And suppose there are 3 events and that these events happen over a course of 5 seconds 'out there'. The light from them would maintain a difference of five seconds as it moves towards us, so we would see the light being over a time period of 5 seconds *even though* similar events would take 10 seconds here. that difference would tell us that time goes faster out there.

it isn't a single measurement. it is a sequence of measurements over time showing that things change out there, which means there is time, and we can measure the rates of those changes by the observations here.

There is no nearby anything. We do not know how far away a star or supposed gas cloud is. Regardless, all time experienced is here.
Give an example.

Some info. Not what you thought though. No distances or mass or sizes or time or travel etc.

Of course you would see things take consistent time here where you see the light.

Why would that be an 'of course'? if they take 10 seconds out there, the light would show an interval of 10 seconds even if similar things would take 5 seconds here.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
For the lurkers sake here tell us what you think of Eve and whether you believe she was a real woman taken from a real man's bone? Be honest. Let lurkers decide who trashes the bible.


I said I was done with this thread but I did continue to lurk. Since you asked a reasonable question, I'll respond:

The story of Adam & Eve is just one of the thousands of make-believe stories made up by cultures around the world to explain the origins of humans. Many are much more interesting and colorful than yours.

African Creation Stories – Exploring Africa
The Plant of Life

Shida Matunda created all things. After making the earth and water and plants and animals, he created two women and took them as his wives.

His favorite wife, however, died. Then Shida Matunda buried her in her house and remained at her grave watering it every day. After some time, a little plant began to grow from the grave. Then he was glad, because he knew that the dead woman would rise again. He did not allow his other wife to come near the grave.

But one day when Shida Matunda had gone out, the wife was overcome with curiosity and she stole into the house. When she saw the plant, she was jealous and cut it down with a hoe. The blood of the dead woman poured out of the grave and filled the house.

When Shida Matunda returned and saw the blood, he was much afraid and said: “You have killed your co-wife and thereby caused all men, animals, and plants to die.”

From Shida Matunda and the surviving woman descended all other humans.
I don't believe in the above and I equally don't believe in your Genesis. If you want to refer to that as trashing the bible - that's your prerogative.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
What we need to understand to be educated is that origin science claims are a religious crock, and not worthy of belief or wasting time studying. The fables show antipathy toward the truth and bible.

No, they shows a strong devotion to truth even if it shows the Bible to be wrong. There is a difference.

The false science fable tellers are not good angels of light, or representing them.

Your mythology is irrelevant.
 

dad

Undefeated
The question is the transition between inside and outside of the fishbowl. We know information is coming in. And that information says something about conditions outside. Think of it like this.

Suppose that events happen outside, A->B->C and these take twice as long as inside. The light from A, B, and C is delayed by the amount of time between those events outside. So, when it gets inside, it is *still* shows the *outside* time intervals in what we see here. The events would *look* to be twice as long between the events A, B, and C as they would be for the same events inside.
Once here it exists in our rules and our time. It can't show anything else in regards to time. We only see light after it gets here. No time is seen anywhere but here. No time is experienced. If you see light moving in the far universe you could not know how fast it was going. That is because we have only seen light here in our time and space. We cannot see any time out there.


Well, the light doesn't suddenly appear at the boundary of the fishbowl, does it? It comes from outside and can be used to probe the conditions outside. A fish in a fishbowl can still see the distortions produced by the bowl.

It comes from outside, yes. It is not seen there, but here when it arrives.


The light has a frequency. If time is different, or non-existent, the light would be different (by having a different frequency or none at all). That produces a distortion.
The time in a frequency is only seen here after it gets here. We have never seen waves out of the fishbowl. There is no reason to claim that a different space or time would somehow produce some distortion here.

No, it relates to what is inside of here because the light we see inside comes from outside.
The time outside is not known, and the only place we see it is here in our time.

There is a causal link between the two. And, we can actually watch changes in things outside over time. That time is measured here, of course, but the rates are of the things outside.
A rate of time is only here. Whatever time/rate outside of here is not seen


Why pretend we don't know things when we do? We can, and do, measure the effects of gravity on space and time *here* and so see the distortions on space and time produced by gravity.
The fishbowl ripples seen are seen here. All measuring is here in our time. All so called distortions are here. Etc.
How could we measure gravity effects on objects of unknown distance and size? You need the specs for the math. So all you can do is measure it here.


But that light was formed there. And it was formed in such a way that we see what we see here.
No. Seeing light here does not tell us how it was formed persay. Seeing light in our time does not tell us about time elsewhere. Much of what you assume about formation depends on the time being the same so that we know distances and etc etc.

The causal link allows us to determine information about the outside, including that there is no distortion and no problems finding distances and times.
Time is not part of any imagined causal link. The causes you attribute all depend on things that are beliefs based on a homogeneous space and time, such as distances. So you have nothing.

And yet it was produced out there in such a way that it becomes what we measure here. That connection limits the possibilities of what is out there.
No way. Nothing has to have been produced out there is it was created. You have no way of knowing the difference. You just replace the word created for produced, as if things always must have produced their little selves.
Mary had a little lamb, she placed it on a shelf.
Polycarp told us though, it produced it's little self.


False. The fact that light from out there matches what we expect for hydrogen in here says that, somehow, the light produced out there manages to look like that from hydrogen in here.
Having hydrogen out where stars are has no connection to time itself there, and nothing to do with what else all may be out there that we don't see.

And *that* means that the that the properties of the hydrogen (or whatever) out there match what we see in here (otherwise the light from out there could be *anything*, but it still matches what we see in here).
Properties of hydrogen out there somewhere, heaven knows how far, do not tell us a thing about time out there. If the light carrying the signature of hydrogen is here, then it is in our time. So we can forget any decay time we see here etc etc.

We can model how differences in the nature of time would affect our observations. For example, if time flowed faster out there, it would show up in the records the light from there would show here.
False. You have no clue what time is. You have no clue what time out there is. You therefore have no clue how any different time would affect anything on the way here. Once here, it doesn't matter because it has to exist in our time and space.

And suppose there are 3 events and that these events happen over a course of 5 seconds 'out there'. The light from them would maintain a difference of five seconds as it moves towards us,
No! We do not know that time itself is uniform outside the fishbowl either! For all we know, there could be multiple differences as we get further from earth (the centre of the universe as far as time is concerned). All we can say is that once light or waves or whatever gets here, then it exists in our time!


it isn't a single measurement. it is a sequence of measurements over time showing that things change out there,
It is a series of fishbowl measurements in the fishbowl here over fishbowl time. That does not show us anything about time at the source.

which means there is time, and we can measure the rates of those changes by the observations here.
No, it means there is time here, and that you measure here and nowhere else.


Why would that be an 'of course'? if they take 10 seconds out there, the light would show an interval of 10 seconds even if similar things would take 5 seconds here.
No. If something takes, for example, a million years (theoretically) in our time it could only represent a fraction of a second in time out there. Who knows? Then there is the issue that time might change as we get further out, rather than there be just fishbowl time and the rest of the universe time!

Remember that stars were made for man to see, and for man's time! Seasons, days, years etc. Your idea of earth and man being insignificant seems to lie at the heart of the belief that earth time could not be special.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Once here it exists in our rules and our time. It can't show anything else in regards to time. We only see light after it gets here. No time is seen anywhere but here. No time is experienced. If you see light moving in the far universe you could not know how fast it was going. That is because we have only seen light here in our time and space. We cannot see any time out there.

If it is moving, then there is time. It is that simple. By watching over (our) time, we can tell how far apart in time events were far away. Again, that is simple.

It comes from outside, yes. It is not seen there, but here when it arrives.

Correct. But it carries information about where it originated. And, that includes time information.

The time in a frequency is only seen here after it gets here. We have never seen waves out of the fishbowl. There is no reason to claim that a different space or time would somehow produce some distortion here.

The time outside is not known, and the only place we see it is here in our time.

But because of what we see here, we have information about what happens there.

A rate of time is only here. Whatever time/rate outside of here is not seen

But if the rate out there was different, then what we see here would be different. if something emits light over the course of two days, then the light arrives here over the course of two days. THAT is the extra information we need to know about time out there.

The fishbowl ripples seen are seen here. All measuring is here in our time. All so called distortions are here. Etc.

Are measured here, yes. But produced out there. And that gives information about what happens out there.

How could we measure gravity effects on objects of unknown distance and size? You need the specs for the math. So all you can do is measure it here.

But measurements here give information about what happens there.

No. Seeing light here does not tell us how it was formed persay. Seeing light in our time does not tell us about time elsewhere. Much of what you assume about formation depends on the time being the same so that we know distances and etc etc.

No, it doesn't. if time were different, it would affect what we see here.

Time is not part of any imagined causal link. The causes you attribute all depend on things that are beliefs based on a homogeneous space and time, such as distances. So you have nothing.

Of course time is part of the link. It takes time to travel, after all.

Having hydrogen out where stars are has no connection to time itself there, and nothing to do with what else all may be out there that we don't see.

Actually it does. The link is the frequency of the light emitted by the hydrogen. The hydrogen is out there. The light comes here and we measure it. But the fact that the light here has the same properties as light emitted by hydrogen here shows that the hydrogen there has the same properties as the hydrogen here. And that includes the time aspect in the frequencies of the light.

Properties of hydrogen out there somewhere, heaven knows how far, do not tell us a thing about time out there. If the light carrying the signature of hydrogen is here, then it is in our time. So we can forget any decay time we see here etc etc.

So why are the signals from there spread out over time here?

False. You have no clue what time is. You have no clue what time out there is. You therefore have no clue how any different time would affect anything on the way here. Once here, it doesn't matter because it has to exist in our time and space.

Actually, we have many clues for exactly those things. And we can measure things here to obtain such clues.

The whole basis of your position is denialism. You simply deny that we can know anything. maybe you do that because you can't imagine how we could. But the fact is that we can use information collected *here* that has traveled from *there* to get information about *there*. And that includes information about both space and time 'out there'.

The fact is that you simply don't like the results of our discoveries: they go against your religious beliefs. So you deny them.

Which is fine: you can deny all you want. But that doesn't change the fact that our knowledge about the universe is at least as secure as our knowledge of events closer to home. And that includes events in the past 9another of your sticking points, it seems).
 

gnostic

The Lost One
False. If time and space exist as they do here, regardless of any difference anywhere else, we would always see time here. If time and space existed differently out there, that would not mean it existed that way here. What you see from outside is inside!

Saying it is “False” and that space and time were different, WITHOUT EVIDENCE, don’t make it “false”.

If science have already verified their model/research/investigation with physical evidence and data (data, such as recordings, measurements or quantities...or all of three), then the only way debunk everything they have, if you have better verifiable evidence and data, WHICH YOU DON’T HAVE, and WHICH YOU NEVER HAVE.

Saying time and space were different without evidence, only means that your arguments against our arguments, are merely biased unsubstantiated speculation.

Your unsupported speculations are merely personal opinions, not facts, dad.

Fact required verification, dad, and verification required evidence, and you have never supported your arguments with evidence.
 

dad

Undefeated
If it is moving, then there is time. It is that simple. By watching over (our) time, we can tell how far apart in time events were far away. Again, that is simple.

Wrong. We can tell how far apart IN our time things appear from here. That does not mean they are that much time apart out there!

Correct. But it carries information about where it originated. And, that includes time information.
Such as?

But because of what we see here, we have information about what happens there.
Mostly beliefs. Not much info regarding space or time, and therefore distances or sizes or speeds.


But if the rate out there was different, then what we see here would be different
What we see here is existing in our time. It cannot be different that what must exist here. This does not tell us about time there.

. if something emits light over the course of two days, then the light arrives here over the course of two days. THAT is the extra information we need to know about time out there.
No. The two days here would not equal two days there. We experience 2 days here, while out there it may have been a millionth of a second. The only way you could make time equal here and there is by time BEING the same here and there. This we do not know.

Are measured here, yes. But produced out there. And that gives information about what happens out there.
Not regarding time or space. The other info you think you have is wrong also, since distances, masses and sizes all would be wrong.


No, it doesn't. if time were different, it would affect what we see here.
No, our fishbowl is in time and space that we know and things must exist a certain way here. That does not affect time out there.

Of course time is part of the link. It takes time to travel, after all.
Once it GETS here it takes time to travel. What time was involved in moving out there we have no knowledge about. You seem to think measuring fishbowl movements tells us what time is like in all the universe.



Actually it does. The link is the frequency of the light emitted by the hydrogen. The hydrogen is out there. The light comes here and we measure it. But the fact that the light here has the same properties as light emitted by hydrogen here shows that the hydrogen there has the same properties as the hydrogen here. And that includes the time aspect in the frequencies of the light.
No. It just shows that the light with the info exists a certain way here. That light we are looking at could be from a star as big as a tennis ball 4 light days away! You thought it was ten times a big as the sun and a billion light years away.

If we only saw the light as it entered the fishbowl (pictured as a pyramid in the illustration below)
proxy-image

then our perspective would be limited.

Yes we see hydrogen in the spectrum, so what? If an isotope of hydrogen here has a half life of 12.32 years or 910 years, all this tells us is that here on earth (or solar system area) it takes that much rime for a process to happen. The 910 years fishbowl time could equal, say, 4 minutes out there. The star could be light days away rather than billions of years away. Small rather than big..etc. All that you thought it told you is invalid.

So why are the signals from there spread out over time here?
Because time exists along with space a certain way here. All things have to exist in our time here.

The whole basis of your position is denialism. You simply deny that we can know anything.
I point out you didn't really know at all, so you are in denial about not knowing. I only deny what you do not know and claim to know as being known. That is intelligent and honest.

The fact is that you simply don't like the results of our discoveries: they go against your religious beliefs. So you deny them.
Grossly misreading data by deliberately using beliefs is not 'discovering' anything!
But that doesn't change the fact that our knowledge about the universe is at least as secure as our knowledge of events closer to home.
You have demonstrated the opposite.
 

dad

Undefeated
Saying it is “False” and that space and time were different, WITHOUT EVIDENCE, don’t make it “false”.
I was speaking about far space. You are conflating the earth with something else. Try to fire on target.

If science have already verified their model/research/investigation with physical evidence and data (data, such as recordings, measurements or quantities...or all of three), then the only way debunk everything they have, if you have better verifiable evidence and data, WHICH YOU DON’T HAVE, and WHICH YOU NEVER HAVE.
What measurements when and where? Focus.
Saying time and space were different without evidence, only means that your arguments against our arguments, are merely biased unsubstantiated speculation.
There we have it you are conflating a discussion of the far universe and time with the nature on earth in the past. Different arguments.

Try shooting with a straight arrow and a bow that has more than dental floss.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Wrong. We can tell how far apart IN our time things appear from here. That does not mean they are that much time apart out there!

Explain how the light travels in such a way that the time difference is changed.


Well, for example, we see the decrease in light from a star that happens because a planet orbiting that star passes between that star and us. We then see another decrease in 10 days. And another 10 days after that And another 10 days after that. That means the planet is orbiting every 10 days.

If it was orbiting every 5 days, the light traveling, in *any* way, would keep that time difference and we would see the decreases every 5 days. If the planet orbits every 50 days, the light traveling would show that decrease every 50 days.

Think of it like this. Suppose two people start walking, starting at the same location, but at different times. They walk at the same rate in any terrain, but terrain changes many times over the course of their journey and we don't know how. But, because they walk the same rate in any terrain and because they go through the same terrain, if they arrive 5 days apart, then they started 5 days apart.

Mostly beliefs. Not much info regarding space or time, and therefore distances or sizes or speeds.


What we see here is existing in our time. It cannot be different that what must exist here. This does not tell us about time there.


No. The two days here would not equal two days there. We experience 2 days here, while out there it may have been a millionth of a second. The only way you could make time equal here and there is by time BEING the same here and there. This we do not know.

No, it could NOT be a millisecond. If the time difference there was a millisecond, the time difference for the light at each stage of the trip would also be a millisecond. So it would be a millisecond here.

Not regarding time or space. The other info you think you have is wrong also, since distances, masses and sizes all would be wrong.

And I just showed why it is NOT wrong. Again, your denialism: you ignore the evidence and deny it.

No, our fishbowl is in time and space that we know and things must exist a certain way here. That does not affect time out there.

But the light comes from out there. And that means it carries information from out there. And, yes, it carries information about space and time out there.

Once it GETS here it takes time to travel. What time was involved in moving out there we have no knowledge about. You seem to think measuring fishbowl movements tells us what time is like in all the universe.

Once again, the light is coming from outside. And it shows the movements of the things outside. So that *does* tell us about space and time outside.

No. It just shows that the light with the info exists a certain way here. That light we are looking at could be from a star as big as a tennis ball 4 light days away! You thought it was ten times a big as the sun and a billion light years away.

No, it could not be and still give the parallax we observe. There is no way for a fishbowl to produce the parallaxes and results we observe.

If we only saw the light as it entered the fishbowl (pictured as a pyramid in the illustration below)
proxy-image

then our perspective would be limited.

And if we only saw purple light, we would know that. We can tell the effects of that pyramid on the other side of the pyramid.

Yes we see hydrogen in the spectrum, so what? If an isotope of hydrogen here has a half life of 12.32 years or 910 years, all this tells us is that here on earth (or solar system area) it takes that much rime for a process to happen. The 910 years fishbowl time could equal, say, 4 minutes out there. The star could be light days away rather than billions of years away. Small rather than big..etc. All that you thought it told you is invalid.

No, there is no way to keep consistency with our observations and have that happen. You wave your arms and say 'fishbowl' a lot, but that fishbowl you claim to exist seems to have a lot of contradictory properties.

And it's all to save face for your religion.

Because time exists along with space a certain way here. All things have to exist in our time here.

I point out you didn't really know at all, so you are in denial about not knowing. I only deny what you do not know and claim to know as being known. That is intelligent and honest.

No, you are making stuff about about a fictional fishbowl because you don't like the conclusions from actually dealing with the data. There is no evidence for a fishbowl. And, further, the properties you propose for a fishbowl are contradictory: they would not explain what we actually see.

Grossly misreading data by deliberately using beliefs is not 'discovering' anything!

You have demonstrated the opposite.

Well, I can see you will be in denial not matter what. You create your fishbowl and live in it. I prefer to live by the evidence and in the real world.

I find it sad that you have to deny so much to uphold your faith. But that is your right.
 

dad

Undefeated
Explain how the light travels in such a way that the time difference is changed.
Light doesn't get a vote. Light behaves appropriately in whatever speed/time zone it is in. If light exists in the fishbowl it moves at what we know is light speed. If time here were different, then light would exist accordingly. It is not C that determines time. C is just a passenger driving through obeying the posted speed limits.

Well, for example, we see the decrease in light from a star that happens because a planet orbiting that star passes between that star and us.
You see some object rotating (big deal some asteroids have things orbiting them) that are of unknown size and distance and you call these 'planets'.

We then see another decrease in 10 days. And another 10 days after that And another 10 days after that. That means the planet is orbiting every 10 days.
No! That means that something is orbiting something else (most likely) and that the light streaming into the fishbowl with the info unfolds in 10 of our days in this time!



If it was orbiting every 5 days, the light traveling, in *any* way, would keep that time difference
False. Once light or anything enters a space and time that is different it obeys and exists in that time. If you came from Germany and had a speed limit of 100MPH in your town, and you were driving in a sleepy town in the US in a school zone, you would not be keeping former speed limits.

Think of it like this. Suppose two people start walking, starting at the same location, but at different times. They walk at the same rate in any terrain, but terrain changes many times over the course of their journey and we don't know how. But, because they walk the same rate in any terrain and because they go through the same terrain, if they arrive 5 days apart, then they started 5 days apart.
False analogy. All those people are in the fishbowl and the same time and space. Now imagine we are at the edge of the universe. Other people are at various points closer to the earth. They all move toward earth and all get here at the same time. It took 3 minutes for all of them to arrive at the boundary of the fishbowl regardless of where they started. Once they get here, they are limited to a walking speed of 4mph. If the fishbowl was for example, 1 light day in diameter, then it would take them, what, many thousands of years to get the rest of the way to earth?


No, it could NOT be a millisecond. If the time difference there was a millisecond, the time difference for the light at each stage of the trip would also be a millisecond. So it would be a millisecond here.
No. Once here they exist in our time. Not before. One example in the bible of this sort of speed is when Daniel prayed. Before he opened his eyes, Gabriel from beyond where the stars are had come from the throne of God to speak to him, and was there in the room with him.

But the light comes from out there. And that means it carries information from out there. And, yes, it carries information about space and time out there.
No. It carries info like coloured light in a spectrum that indicates certain elements exist. That is not info about space or time!

Once again, the light is coming from outside. And it shows the movements of the things outside. So that *does* tell us about space and time outside.
Movement is not time. Movement is something that as far as we know involves time. It does not have to involve time as we know it here.

No, it could not be and still give the parallax we observe. There is no way for a fishbowl to produce the parallaxes and results we observe.
The reason is that you take space and time and represent it as a line. (for example a baseline of the distance of half an earth year orbit around the sun). Then you draw lines to the stars as if that time and space were all equal.

And if we only saw purple light, we would know that. We can tell the effects of that pyramid on the other side of the pyramid.
You look from inside. You cannot tell about space outside the fishbowl or about time there. The only 'effects' you see are inside. The only decay you see is in fishbowl time etc.
No, you are making stuff about about a fictional fishbowl ...

The solar system and area are not fictional. I am making up nothing about them. Man has been nowhere else, and even in this solar system area we have hardly been anywhere but our own moon. Even probes have not been one light day away from earth.

And, further, the properties you propose for a fishbowl are contradictory: they would not explain what we actually see.
The properties on earth and this solar system are actually well known. They are actually seen. What are you talking about?
 
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