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Genesis 17:17: Mind's Retroactive Conception.

Thief

Rogue Theologian
. . . The point of Genesis 17:17 and John 3:4 is that the renewing of the mind is less a process sprouting out of one's first birth and the experiences related to that birth, and more like coming out of the baptismal font, the Sea of Lethe, or piercing the vaginal membrane of Maya, from the inside out.

In other words, every true son of God was in Christ before the katabole (falling down, i.e., original sin) of ha-adam. Which means rebirth is actually the original birth, postponed, still-born at first (into the fallen flesh, into death), but still born live at a real, no doubt late, moment in time.

Renewing of the mind is a returning of the mind to its origins. And since the origins of the sons of God are in ha-adam before the Fall, there's some real soul-searching, and biblical exegesis, to be done as to why death came before life, why the righteous man was subjected to death, and what the Father intends the renewing of the mind to restore to his sons whilst they still labor in the land of the lost?


John
did you proof read this?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
. . . did [sic] you proof read the sentence where you asked if I proof read?


John
your previous post looked like a collection of puzzle pieces
with nouns printed on them
and the cut of the puzzle allows any alignment

...land of the lost?

aka.....the land of Nod?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
your previous post looked like a collection of puzzle pieces
with nouns printed on them
and the cut of the puzzle allows any alignment

...land of the lost?

aka.....the land of Nod?

. . . It makes sense to me. And to give you a straight answer, yes I proof read it, as I always do, more than once. And I proof read it again after your response. I stand by the veracity of the text.



John
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
. . . The point of Genesis 17:17 and John 3:4 is that the renewing of the mind is less a process sprouting out of one's first birth and the experiences related to that birth, and more like coming out of the baptismal font, the Sea of Lethe, or piercing the vaginal membrane of Maya, from the inside out.

In other words, every true son of God was in Christ before the katabole (falling down, i.e., original sin) of ha-adam. Which means rebirth is actually the original birth, postponed, still-born at first (into the fallen flesh, into death), but still born live at a real, no doubt late, moment in time.

Renewing of the mind is a returning of the mind to its origins. And since the origins of the sons of God are in ha-adam before the Fall, there's some real soul-searching, and biblical exegesis, to be done as to why death came before life, why the righteous man was subjected to death, and what the Father intends the renewing of the mind to restore to his sons whilst they still labor in the land of the lost?


John

there are points of agreement and disagreement IMV>

Yes, renewing of the mind is returning the mind to its origins. Having a spiritual mind that once again, thinks like God wants us to think (all things are possible) and understanding the dominion He has given us through the the name Messiah Jesus.

But I disagree that death came before life. Ha-Adam was fully alive before he decided "there is another way" and committed spiritual treason. Man then became sense and natural driven instead of spirit led.

Man is spirit first.

Rebirth (as mentioned in John 3) is the actual event of bring back to life those who were spiritually separated

The Katabole of Gen 1 has to do with Satan and not the first Adam.

Just curious, you always seem to throw in other faith (Mayan, Hindu, etc) why?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
there are points of agreement and disagreement IMV>

Yes, renewing of the mind is returning the mind to its origins. Having a spiritual mind that once again, thinks like God wants us to think (all things are possible) and understanding the dominion He has given us through the the name Messiah Jesus.

But I disagree that death came before life. Ha-Adam was fully alive before he decided "there is another way" and committed spiritual treason. Man then became sense and natural driven instead of spirit led.

Man is spirit first.

Rebirth (as mentioned in John 3) is the actual event of bring back to life those who were spiritually separated

The Katabole of Gen 1 has to do with Satan and not the first Adam.

Just curious, you always seem to throw in other faith (Mayan, Hindu, etc) why?

. . . As I argued in another thread, the myth of Adam and Eve (and for me "myth" doesn't mean made up, or necessarily untrue) is a framework for understanding the truth and scientific reality of the start of life and the evolution of life whereby through sexual mixing death entered the scene.

To the extent that Genesis is divine science garbed in ancient mythological clothing we can appreciate that there are multifarious nuances that can be exegeted out of the literal text without doing damage to it.

For instance, Adam isn't clothed with flesh until after the "katabole" which is his fall into animal existence. So in one sense the duality between his spiritual existence and his temporal existence can be thought to exist fully only after the Fall.

Likewise, after the big bang, the universe possessed the second law of thermodynamics, which is tantamount to senescence leading inevitably to death, implying that the big bang is, for the universe, as Adam's sin is for Adam, the prerequisite for Adam entering temporality as part and parcel of the world outside "Eden."

Adam's "fall" includes a fall into forgetfulness about his true origin in the Garden. In Jewish midrashim Adam sits in one of the rivers running out of Eden in order to try and remember what Eden was like before the Fall, and thus what he was prior to the Fall. It's a neat inversion of the Sea of Lethe where the water causes forgetfulness rather than restoring memory.

In the context of this thread, Jesus and the Gospels, are like the waters of Eden. They cause us to remember what we were in Adam prior to the katabole, the Fall, into death and temporality; they give us hope/confidence that the second law of thermodynamics, i.e., senescence and death, were nailed to the cross of Christ and revoked.

This is the point, or rather purpose, of death (unification with temporality) in the first place. It's a requirement to gain "knowledge" of the origin. The trick is to eliminate the death once the knowledge is gained. And that's precisely the victorious proclamation that resounds throughout the Gospels: death was revoked at the birth and death of Jesus Christ so that now we can return to Eden not as ignorant innocent children, but as full sons of God possessing both divinity and termporality tempered by the run in with death that was overcome through rebirth.

The biology of meiosis is fundamental to how Jesus' birth and death revoked death. Which is to say that just as we can legitimately transmute biblical myth into science, we can just as legitimately transmute science, in this case the biology of meiosis, into biblical science; in this case the science of how Jesus' virgin birth was made possible, and efficacious, through the biological puzzle of meiosis and polar body.


John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The Katabole of Gen 1 has to do with Satan and not the first Adam.

καταβολή

"Laying down,” “casting down,” in the case of plants a tt. for the casting of seed into the bosom of the earth: σπ?ρματα ε?ς γ?ν ? ε?ς μ?τραν καταβαλλ?μενα, M. Ant., IV, 36, applied also to the sexual function of the male, Luc. Amores, 19: το?ς μ?ν ?ρρεσιν ?δ?ας καταβολ?ς σπερμ?των χαρισαμ?νη, τ? θ?λυ δ' ?σπερ γον?ς τι δοχε?ον ?ποφ?νασα. Gal. De Naturae Potent., I, 6, 11 (ed. Marquardt-MüllerHelmreich, Script. Min., III [1893]), Philo Op. Mund., 132 etc. Plut.. Aquane An Ignis Sit Utilior, 2 (II, 956a): ?μα τ? πρ?τ? καταβολ? τ?ν ?νθρ?πων (of the begetting of individuals); of the “sowing” of a war, Jos. Bell., 2, 409 and 417; of the laying of the foundations of a building or government, Polyb., 13, 6, 2: καταβολ?ν ποιε?σθαι τυρανν?δοςf. Hb. 6:1; ?κ καταβολ?ς, from the basis up, i.e., fundamentally, Polyb., I, 36, 8. The verb καταβ?λλειν is common in the LXX, e.g., Prv. 25:28, but the noun occurs only at 2 Macc. 2:29: ?ρχιτ?κτονι τ?ς ?λης καταβολ?ς.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

"Katabole" is the casting down of the world, the big bang, and the casting down of ha-adam, the Fall. In the concept of Adam Kadmon, ha-adam is a anthropomorphic image/myth of the cosmos. So the big bang is, to the universe, as Adam's Fall is to human history; they're intertwined so that we can learn about elements of one from the other.

The unity of all things should be the first exegetical principle taught to the serious student of God's word.



John
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
. . . As I argued in another thread, the myth of Adam and Eve (and for me "myth" doesn't mean made up, or necessarily untrue) is a framework for understanding the truth and scientific reality of the start of life and the evolution of life whereby through sexual mixing death entered the scene.

To the extent that Genesis is divine science garbed in ancient mythological clothing we can appreciate that there are multifarious nuances that can be exegeted out of the literal text without doing damage to it.

For instance, Adam isn't clothed with flesh until after the "katabole" which is his fall into animal existence. So in one sense the duality between his spiritual existence and his temporal existence can be thought to exist fully only after the Fall.

Likewise, after the big bang, the universe possessed the second law of thermodynamics, which is tantamount to senescence leading inevitably to death, implying that the big bang is, for the universe, as Adam's sin is for Adam, the prerequisite for Adam entering temporality as part and parcel of the world outside "Eden."

Adam's "fall" includes a fall into forgetfulness about his true origin in the Garden. In Jewish midrashim Adam sits in one of the rivers running out of Eden in order to try and remember what Eden was like before the Fall, and thus what he was prior to the Fall. It's a neat inversion of the Sea of Lethe where the water causes forgetfulness rather than restoring memory.

In the context of this thread, Jesus and the Gospels, are like the waters of Eden. They cause us to remember what we were in Adam prior to the katabole, the Fall, into death and temporality; they give us hope/confidence that the second law of thermodynamics, i.e., senescence and death, were nailed to the cross of Christ and revoked.

This is the point, or rather purpose, of death (unification with temporality) in the first place. It's a requirement to gain "knowledge" of the origin. The trick is to eliminate the death once the knowledge is gained. And that's precisely the victorious proclamation that resounds throughout the Gospels: death was revoked at the birth and death of Jesus Christ so that now we can return to Eden not as ignorant innocent children, but as full sons of God possessing both divinity and termporality tempered by the run in with death that was overcome through rebirth.

The biology of meiosis is fundamental to how Jesus' birth and death revoked death. Which is to say that just as we can legitimately transmute biblical myth into science, we can just as legitimately transmute science, in this case the biology of meiosis, into biblical science; in this case the science of how Jesus' virgin birth was made possible, and efficacious, through the biological puzzle of meiosis and polar body.


John
Then we approach things in completely different paradigms of though.

When God formed Adam from clay, I would be hard pressed to think that flesh came later.

The Gospel is complete in the first 4 chapters of Genesis, including the blood covenant cut by God, the promise of the Messiah, man's effort to make things right with fig leaves cursed by Jesus and the robe of righteousness that only God can provide.

There is nothing to suggest that Adam "forgot".

I think i will bow out from here since there is little congruency in our thoughts.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
καταβολή

"Laying down,” “casting down,” in the case of plants a tt. for the casting of seed into the bosom of the earth: σπ?ρματα ε?ς γ?ν ? ε?ς μ?τραν καταβαλλ?μενα, M. Ant., IV, 36, applied also to the sexual function of the male, Luc. Amores, 19: το?ς μ?ν ?ρρεσιν ?δ?ας καταβολ?ς σπερμ?των χαρισαμ?νη, τ? θ?λυ δ' ?σπερ γον?ς τι δοχε?ον ?ποφ?νασα. Gal. De Naturae Potent., I, 6, 11 (ed. Marquardt-MüllerHelmreich, Script. Min., III [1893]), Philo Op. Mund., 132 etc. Plut.. Aquane An Ignis Sit Utilior, 2 (II, 956a): ?μα τ? πρ?τ? καταβολ? τ?ν ?νθρ?πων (of the begetting of individuals); of the “sowing” of a war, Jos. Bell., 2, 409 and 417; of the laying of the foundations of a building or government, Polyb., 13, 6, 2: καταβολ?ν ποιε?σθαι τυρανν?δοςf. Hb. 6:1; ?κ καταβολ?ς, from the basis up, i.e., fundamentally, Polyb., I, 36, 8. The verb καταβ?λλειν is common in the LXX, e.g., Prv. 25:28, but the noun occurs only at 2 Macc. 2:29: ?ρχιτ?κτονι τ?ς ?λης καταβολ?ς.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

"Katabole" is the casting down of the world, the big bang, and the casting down of ha-adam, the Fall. In the concept of Adam Kadmon, ha-adam is a anthropomorphic image/myth of the cosmos. So the big bang is, to the universe, as Adam's Fall is to human history; they're intertwined so that we can learn about elements of one from the other.

The unity of all things should be the first exegetical principle taught to the serious student of God's word.



John
a serious student would disagree.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
a serious student would disagree.

. . . Such that since there's a unity to all things, we should like to unify the disagreement with what it denies. We should like to take the denial seriously to see what place it has in the unity of what it's denying. . . If we could do that we could redeem even Satan. . . Perhaps no longer as the first of God's created things, maybe even the last, but redeemed and redeemable nevertheless.



John
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
. . . Such that since there's a unity to all things, we should like to unify the disagreement with what it denies. We should like to take the denial seriously to see what place it has in the unity of what it's denying. . . If we could do that we could redeem even Satan. . . Perhaps no longer as the first of God's created things, maybe even the last, but redeemed and redeemable nevertheless.



John
Satan is unredeemable as per scripture. IMO you have gone so deep that you lost the simplicity of the gospel
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
When God formed Adam from clay, I would be hard pressed to think that flesh came later.

The Gospel is complete in the first 4 chapters of Genesis,

. . . The word "clay" doesn't exist in the Hebrew or the English. And beside that the Hebrew text has multiple layers of meaning. The Jewish and Christian sages focus on four primary: peshat=plain, remez=hinted at, derash=moral allegorical, sod=secret.

In the plain meaning (peshat) we might say God formed Adam from the clay. But since the Hebrew text says he formed him from the עפר (dust) of the earth (not just the earth), we get a hint (remez) that something more is being said in the verse than meets the eye fixed on the peshat meaning of the text.

Midrashim from the derash level of interpretation might note things like the fact that ha-adam is האדם while what he's formed from is אדמה. The letter heh ה begins the word used for the human, while the letter ends the word for that from which ha-adam is formed.

The deepest level of interpretation is sod. It's the secret level of interpretation that requires more of the interpreter and the student than all the other three levels combined.

In the verse in the cross-hairs, a sod-level interpretation might note that the word for "formed" יצר has something peculiar in this particular verse. It has two yod י rather than the traditional one. The sages speak of two formings: a spiritual, and a temporal. It's as though the spoken Word was already formed prior to the temporal body such that the Word was breathed, or spoken, into the clay body, so that it might appear to some that they are the same thing. The two yod suggest otherwise to the wise person digging that deep into the life-giving veins of the verse.



John
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
. . . The word "clay" doesn't exist in the Hebrew or the English. And beside that the Hebrew has text has multiple layers of meaning. The Jewish and Christian sages focus on four primary: peshat=plain, remez=hinted at, derash=moral allegorical, sod=secret.

In the plain meaning (peshat) we might say God formed Adam from the clay. But since the Hebrew text says he formed him from the עפר (dust) of the earth (not just the earth), we get a hint (remez) that something more is being said in the verse than meets the eye fixed on the peshat meaning of the text.

Midrashim from the derash level of interpretation might note things like the fact that ha-adam is האדם while what he's formed from is אדמה. The letter heh ה begins the word used for the human, while the letter ends the word for that from which ha-adam is formed.

The deepest level of interpretation is sod. It's the secret level of interpretation that requires more of the interpreter and the student than all the other three levels combined.

In the verse in the cross-hairs, a sod-level interpretation might note that the word for "formed" יצר has something peculiar in this particular verse. It has two yod י rather than the traditional one. The sages speak of two formings: a spiritual, and a temporal. It's as though the spoken Word was already formed prior to the temporal body such that the Word was breathed, or spoken, into the clay body, so that it might appear to some that they are the same thing. The two yod suggest otherwise to the wise person digging that deep into the life-giving veins of the verse.



John
Genesis 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground,
&c.] Not of dry dust, but, as Josephus F8 says, of red earth macerated, or mixed with water; the like notion Hesiod F9 has; or out of clay, as in ( Job 33:6 ) hence a word is made use of, translated "formed", which is used of the potter that forms his clay into what shape he pleases: the original matter of which man was made was clay; hence the clay of Prometheus F11 with the Heathens; and God is the Potter that formed him, and gave him the shape he has, see ( Isaiah 64:8 ) , there are two "jods", it is observed, in the word, which is not usual; respecting, as Jarchi thinks, the formation of man for this world, and for the resurrection of the dead; but rather the two fold formation of body and soul, the one is expressed here, and the other in the following clause: and this, as it shows the mighty power of God in producing such a creature out of the dust of the earth, so it serves to humble the pride of man, when he considers he is of the earth, earthy, dust, and ashes, is dust, and to dust he must return.

repsectfully
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Satan is unredeemable as per scripture. IMO you have gone so deep that you lost the simplicity of the gospel

. . . I would say that even if a written version of the Gospel I have unwritten in my heart or even an angel from heaven fallen down to our earth tries to sell short the redemptive power of the blood of Christ you should burn the text or consider the angel anathema.

Nehushtan is the ultimate sod סד emblem of the cross. In Nehushtan the serpent and Christ share a relationship hidden from those who judge with their eyes rather than their heart.



John
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
. . . I would say that even if a written version of the Gospel I have unwritten in my heart or even an angel from heaven fallen down to our earth tries to sell short the redemptive power of the blood of Christ you should burn the text or consider the angel anathema.

Nehushtan is the ultimate sod סד emblem of the cross. In Nehushtan the serpent and Christ share a relationship hidden from those who judge with their eyes rather than their heart.



John
not simple enough. God gives understanding to the simple
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Genesis 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground,
&c.] Not of dry dust, but, as Josephus F8 says, of red earth macerated, or mixed with water; the like notion Hesiod F9 has; or out of clay, as in ( Job 33:6 ) hence a word is made use of, translated "formed", which is used of the potter that forms his clay into what shape he pleases: the original matter of which man was made was clay; hence the clay of Prometheus F11 with the Heathens; and God is the Potter that formed him, and gave him the shape he has, see ( Isaiah 64:8 ) , there are two "jods", it is observed, in the word, which is not usual; respecting, as Jarchi thinks, the formation of man for this world, and for the resurrection of the dead; but rather the two fold formation of body and soul, the one is expressed here, and the other in the following clause: and this, as it shows the mighty power of God in producing such a creature out of the dust of the earth, so it serves to humble the pride of man, when he considers he is of the earth, earthy, dust, and ashes, is dust, and to dust he must return.

repsectfully

The Hebrew words adam, ground, and red, share the same three consonants אדם. John tells, more than once, of a great secret concerning a particular mud formed from blood, water, and earth; the same blood and water that came out of the second adam when his body was pierced to see what the spirit inside was made of.

Blood is male. Flesh is female. Adam's body was female, and his blood was the male. That's the true androgyny of prelapse Adam. His flesh is mud made from water and dirt, female, and his soul is blood come from God. John harps on, obsesses over, the fact that when Jesus was pierced, blood (male) and water (female), came out of Jesus' body. ------ Like ha-adam before the Fall, Jesus was androgynous.

In our verse, this higher dignity [of man] reveals itself in even greater clarity. The animal's body, blood, and soul belong to you and are at your disposal. But your blood, which belongs to your souls, is Mine, not yours. I will demand (אדרש) it, because it belongs to Me and is at My disposal, and I require a reckoning for every drop of your blood. . . He declares that our blood belongs to him.

The Hirsch Chumash, Bereshish, 9:4.​


John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
not simple enough. God gives understanding to the simple

. . . It's simply not true that he gives understanding to all simpletons since I know tons of simple people who are simpletons and yet not wise or discerning in the simplest definition of those words. I've labored in vain toward simply tons of simpletons to no avail.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
When God formed Adam from clay, I would be hard pressed to think that flesh came later. . . The Gospel is complete in the first 4 chapters of Genesis,

. . . Some might be hard-pressed wondering why the Gospels came later?



John
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
. . . It's simply not true that he gives understanding to all simpletons since I know tons of simple people who are simpletons and yet not wise or discerning in the simplest definition of those words. I've labored in vain toward simply tons of simpletons to no avail.



John
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
 
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