Forgiven

Thief · Jul 10, 2020

A Vestigial Mote said:
I entirely acknowledge that I could be wrong. All I advocate for is not adopting any such beliefs until there is a way to demonstrate the veracity of the claims. And that's the main difference I see between myself and theists. Many of them are entirely willing to speak as if they DO know, and like there is no possibility that they could be wrong. I don't do this. I can't do this. It is dishonest and downright foolish.

so.....without the coin in hand
you can't see the value

Thief · Jul 10, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Another question is, what if God forgives you but you cannot forgive yourself?
How does that help you that God forgives you if you cannot forgive yourself?

so...an event came and went
and it haunts you

God might forgive it
and so.....it doesn't bother Him

if the event continues to bother you
there is at least the assuredness.......you won't do it again

A Vestigial Mote · Jul 10, 2020

Thief said:
so.....without the coin in hand
you can't see the value

Is there a coin? That is the first question that should be answered.

Trailblazer · Jul 10, 2020

A Vestigial Mote said:
I entirely acknowledge that I could be wrong. All I advocate for is not adopting any such beliefs until there is a way to demonstrate the veracity of the claims. And that's the main difference I see between myself and theists. Many of them are entirely willing to speak as if they DO know, and like there is no possibility that they could be wrong. I don't do this. I can't do this. It is dishonest and downright foolish.

I think the difference between you and theists is what is required as a demonstration of veracity. Atheists have different requirements than theists. My requirements also differ from the requirements from many theists. I would not believe in the Bible for example, unless there was something else that backed its veracity. Of course, I believe in Messengers of God, but that is because that belief makes logical sense to me that God would need a "mediator" who is both divine and human in order to communicate to humans.

Trailblazer · Jul 10, 2020

Thief said:
if the event continues to bother you
there is at least the assuredness.......you won't do it again

That is not necessarily true, because I had done it before I did it last time, so I could do it again....
but hopefully I have learned my lesson this time and the repercussions won't be as bad as I thought... time will tell..

But how does one stop hating oneself?
Should we forgive ourselves even if something was our fault?
That does not seem right, it seems like a cop-out.

Twilight Hue · Jul 10, 2020

Thief said:
what if God is willing to forgive you
????
but no one else in heaven wants to

I suppose it all depends upon what the transgression was.

What is it that you need to be forgiven for?

Thief · Jul 10, 2020

A Vestigial Mote said:
Is there a coin? That is the first question that should be answered.

been posting about the coin for quite some time....

walk into a room and find it empty
come back later and find a table
Someone has been there

come back later and find a coin on the table
Someone has been there

come back a little quicker and find the coin spinning on it's edge
Look over your shoulder

Thief · Jul 10, 2020

Nowhere Man said:
I suppose it all depends upon what the transgression was.

What is it that you need to be forgiven for?

for being something less than angelic

A Vestigial Mote · Jul 11, 2020

Thief said:
been posting about the coin for quite some time....

Ah... but have you been "posting it for years?" That's the real question. Haha...

Thief said:
walk into a room and find it empty
come back later and find a table
Someone has been there

In my experience, if the room is empty, it remains empty until something for which there is a perfectly logical explanation changes that fact.

Thief said:
come back later and find a coin on the table
Someone has been there

You weren't there to witness how the coin got there. And yet you're going to say you have an explanation? Not buying it.

Thief said:
come back a little quicker and find the coin spinning on it's edge
Look over your shoulder

Will I see "God?" Nope.

Thief · Jul 12, 2020

A Vestigial Mote said:
You weren't there to witness how the coin got there. And yet you're going to say you have an explanation? Not buying it.

and so.....the coin really has no value for you

and I could show a lengthy list of posting on that metaphor...
if only the damn search features ever work....!!!!!

Bird123 · Jul 12, 2020

Thief said:
what if God is willing to forgive you
????
but no one else in heaven wants to

Forgiveness has only one purpose--to sooth emotional hurt. It should not really be needed.

In order to create a Heavenly state, one must Love Unconditionally. Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. Is it really Unconditional Love refusing to sooth the emotional hurt of others? Does seem selfish and hurtful not to forgive.

One will not be able to create a Heavenly state for themselves without Loving Unconditionally. Can these people really be in Heaven? I think not.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Thief · Jul 12, 2020

Bird123 said:
Forgiveness has only one purpose--to sooth emotional hurt. It should not really be needed.

In order to create a Heavenly state, one must Love Unconditionally. Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. Is it really Unconditional Love refusing to sooth the emotional hurt of others? Does seem selfish and hurtful not to forgive.

One will not be able to create a Heavenly state for themselves without Loving Unconditionally. Can these people really be in Heaven? I think not.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

well.....nay

seems to me....heaven is for the chosen
and there is hierarchy to be considered

as well as lines drawn

the story I got.....God's Favored fell from grace
got tossed out
all the way to hell

if that story is true...then it stands to reason
NO position in heaven is guaranteed
even if you find yourself at the right hand of God Himself

apparently ....unconditional love
has a line drawn
and therefore the term is self contradicting

Bird123 · Jul 13, 2020

Thief said:
well.....nay

seems to me....heaven is for the chosen
and there is hierarchy to be considered

as well as lines drawn

the story I got.....God's Favored fell from grace
got tossed out
all the way to hell

if that story is true...then it stands to reason
NO position in heaven is guaranteed
even if you find yourself at the right hand of God Himself

apparently ....unconditional love
has a line drawn
and therefore the term is self contradicting

How about: The stories of religion are just stories and do not really reflect God. With that in mind, forgiveness is not necessary and Unconditional Love is the only true way to create a Heavenly state. In time, everyone will learn their way to Heaven. That would make all the kiddies equal.

You are right that everything about Heaven must add up or it isn't really Heaven.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Thief · Jul 13, 2020

Bird123 said:
The stories of religion are just stories and do not really reflect God.

I believe heaven is seeking a reflection of Itself

the stories the Carpenter told would help to develop those reflections

heaven is not seeking your humanity

Bird123 · Jul 14, 2020

Thief said:
I believe heaven is seeking a reflection of Itself

the stories the Carpenter told would help to develop those reflections

heaven is not seeking your humanity

Heaven does not seek. Isn't it humanity that seeks?

Thief · Jul 14, 2020

Bird123 said:
Heaven does not seek. Isn't it humanity that seeks?

as If heaven won't look you over?

as if heaven will not overlook you?

chinu · Jul 15, 2020

Thief said:
what if God is willing to forgive you
????
but no one else in heaven wants to

Only God resides in Heaven,
There's NO any kind of oppose in Heaven, because there's NO duality in Heaven.

Interesting thing is.. Appearing in front of God = Forgiven by default.
And more interesting thing is.. When in Heaven = One will find him/her-self as God itself (No duality)

Bird123 · Jul 15, 2020

Thief said:
as If heaven won't look you over?

as if heaven will not overlook you?

Your quotes:
as If heaven won't look you over?

as if heaven will not overlook you?
MY ANSWER: Has religion corrupted your view? Isn't there a better, more Intelligent way?

The only one who will judge you is you.
Kiddies will not be overlooked. On the other hand, there are lots and lots of lessons one must learn before one is capable of creating that Heavenly state. Given enough time and lessons, all the kiddies will make it. There is no time limit on learning.

Eternity has purpose and that purpose is not to punish or prevent anyone from moving forward.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Thief · Jul 15, 2020

chinu said:
Only God resides in Heaven,
There's NO any kind of oppose in Heaven, because there's NO duality in Heaven.

Interesting thing is.. Appearing in front of God = Forgiven by default.
And more interesting thing is.. When in Heaven = One will find him/her-self as God itself (No duality)

well.....ok

not sure if I can go that far with it...but ok

with billions of copies of a learning device (human)
and each copy yields a unique spirit
I suspect there will a lot of .....look you over.....
and some sorting of spirit
you get to be alongside others like yourself

so you @chinu ....will likely be happy
in heaven

I don't see why not

Thief · Jul 15, 2020

Bird123 said:
Your quotes:
as If heaven won't look you over?

as if heaven will not overlook you?
MY ANSWER: Has religion corrupted your view? Isn't there a better, more Intelligent way?

The only one who will judge you is you.
Kiddies will not be overlooked. On the other hand, there are lots and lots of lessons one must learn before one is capable of creating that Heavenly state. Given enough time and lessons, all the kiddies will make it. There is no time limit on learning.

Eternity has purpose and that purpose is not to punish or prevent anyone from moving forward.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

God's Favored led a rebellion and got tossed out
all the way to hell

here is my perspective..

we enter this life naked ......we leave the same way
maybe even more so

when you stand from your carcass you might be close enough to see the Door
and with no other option you will go to knock upon it

as you gather your composure and raise your hand
a voice behind you will say.....NAY
to knock upon that Door is betrayal to me!!!!!

some people understanding the situation will throw themselves upon the Door and beat upon it
other people will again compose themselves and raise their hand a second time

NAY.....it is betray to me
oh sure .....it is written .....knock and the Door will open
and they will let you in

But....will they not look you over as they did me?
and will they not throw you out?
as they did me

and then you will deal with ME!
traitor

Forgiven

Rogue Theologian

Rogue Theologian

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

Rogue Theologian

Rogue Theologian

Well-Known Member

Rogue Theologian

Well-Known Member

Rogue Theologian

Well-Known Member

Rogue Theologian

Well-Known Member

Rogue Theologian

chinu

Well-Known Member

Rogue Theologian

Rogue Theologian