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natural law?

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Well, as I pointed out, even other primates share some of the basic ethical principles, such as fairness and compassion. I think that is what expands in societies to form the justification for the laws of that society. And, because specific conditions (food availability, for example) vary from location to location and from time to time, the way those basic drives are elaborated into laws differs from society to society. The laws are formed to govern the people in a society.

Yeah, and chimpanzee are engage in politics and make coups, where they kill the alpha male or wage territorial warfare against the neighboring groups.
Now I can do the same for your laws, people and society, while looking both at history and current forms of governments. That a member of Homo Sapiens Sapiens is a human, a part of the people and a member of a society is not given.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Well I will agree that our development tended to favour small groups but I think many these days will expand their behaviour beyond just those they know or seem to be in one's group, such that it tends to apply to all who are likely to reciprocate. And the Golden Rule is only a high-level general rule under which the most commonly agreed upon codes tend to form - and which are not difficult to predict.

Yeah, this is the ideal but not how all humans do it.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Question:

Is there such thing as a natural law? (as opposed to a divine law or a human-made law)

That exists independently of God?

In the same way as 4 + 4 = 8 exists independently of God?

Biblically, I think there is, look at Romans 2:14

...for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,,,

I call it "human nature" - the capacity to recognise and follow natural laws, concerning the ethical treatment of others

And that it is universal and in all (healthy) peoples' hearts no matter what their faith or non-faith might be, and regardless of culture

I think it is a law of the universe that where sapient civilised beings emerge an intuitive natural law will also emerge, I believe that evolution demands this. I believe that with humans, the in-built ethical imperative to be good comes from nature rather than from God. Much like the evolution of life by natural selection is a natural fact rather than a thing designed by God.

For proof, look at all the ethically aware and fundamentally decent people who are atheists - they abide by natural law whilst ignoring religious teachings and manage to be good, ethical people in a way many religious folk don't. I believe such people are testimony to there being natural laws that concern ethics. Although granted, secular ethical notions are influenced by religious influences.

Those are my thoughts on the matter :)

i think we should be very careful In associating natural laws to human behavior. This can be easily abused to accuse people to behave against nature. And that would be an instance of the naturalistic fallacy. For anything that can happen in this universe, must be in accordance to some natural law. Otherwise, it would nomologically impossible.

for instance, there is no natural law that would prevent me from buying a gun, and shoot in the face the first kid i see. Or to do something that we consider highly immoral.

Nature is Amoral. And morality, or the sense of what is right or wrong, is just an emergent property of some species with a certain biological imprint.

And it becomes meaningless when stripped from our biology of social primates whose survival strongly depend on how we interact with our peers.

ciao

- viole
 
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Bird123

Well-Known Member
Question:

Is there such thing as a natural law? (as opposed to a divine law or a human-made law)

That exists independently of God?

In the same way as 4 + 4 = 8 exists independently of God?

Biblically, I think there is, look at Romans 2:14

...for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,,,

I call it "human nature" - the capacity to recognise and follow natural laws, concerning the ethical treatment of others

And that it is universal and in all (healthy) peoples' hearts no matter what their faith or non-faith might be, and regardless of culture

I think it is a law of the universe that where sapient civilised beings emerge an intuitive natural law will also emerge, I believe that evolution demands this. I believe that with humans, the in-built ethical imperative to be good comes from nature rather than from God. Much like the evolution of life by natural selection is a natural fact rather than a thing designed by God.

For proof, look at all the ethically aware and fundamentally decent people who are atheists - they abide by natural law whilst ignoring religious teachings and manage to be good, ethical people in a way many religious folk don't. I believe such people are testimony to there being natural laws that concern ethics. Although granted, secular ethical notions are influenced by religious influences.

Those are my thoughts on the matter :)


Well, nothing is really independent of God. Further, regardless of what religions or mankind think, there are no Divine laws. Religion may claim credit for all goodness, however you are right in thinking something else is delivering better results.

In this time-based, causal universe, we are all learning and growing by discovering the results of our actions and choices. How long did it take for cavemen to realize that working together results in more food, better living conditions and companionship? Past this step, social interaction brought many lessons on how to get along with each other and act in the best interest of the community.

Fast forward to today and we find we are all still learning on this journey. All the past lessons were carried down from parents to child accumulating our knowledge. It has never been laws, rules or religion that determines our path. It is our Intelligence.

As we look at this world and it's entirety, we see an action of God. God created a world in which brains win. We should all nurture our Intelligence at every opportunity for this alone advances us all forward.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
How is human morality not a part of nature?

What i am saying is human laws are based on human morality

Morality is basically natural so are trees, the laws are not based on trees.

Also some morality is learned, handed down from parents, peers etc, is this natural?
 
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Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Where does that come from?
That comes from the brains of the animal and learned social behavior. Social animals have networks in the brain complemented by hormones that create good prosocial behaviors for those animals in their setting. Morals are only behavior that we identify in language that are positive for our social behavior. It is the advantage that the social behavior gives an organisms that supports the development of these behaviors. Morals in the view of some humans take on a greater meaning when writien in their sacred text but they are still naturally developed behaviors.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Question:
Is there such thing as a natural law?
(as opposed to a divine law or a human-made law)
That exists independently of God?
In the same way as 4 + 4 = 8 exists independently of God?
Biblically, I think there is, look at Romans 2:14
...for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,,,
I call it "human nature" - the capacity to recognise and follow natural laws, concerning the ethical treatment of others
And that it is universal and in all (healthy) peoples' hearts no matter what their faith or non-faith might be, and regardless of culture
I think it is a law of the universe that where sapient civilised beings emerge an intuitive natural law will also emerge, I believe that evolution demands this. I believe that with humans, the in-built ethical imperative to be good comes from nature rather than from God. Much like the evolution of life by natural selection is a natural fact rather than a thing designed by God.
For proof, look at all the ethically aware and fundamentally decent people who are atheists - they abide by natural law whilst ignoring religious teachings and manage to be good, ethical people in a way many religious folk don't. I believe such people are testimony to there being natural laws that concern ethics. Although granted, secular ethical notions are influenced by religious influences.
Those are my thoughts on the matter :)

Interesting thoughts on the matter ^ above ^ and I find really in harmony with Scripture because, unless damaged, we come equipped with a Conscience.
So, ' because of conscience ' the people of the nations show by their thoughts that they are either being accused or excused.- Romans 2:15.

Conscience works like a signal light that signals red when something isn't right, however, if ignored then the conscience starts to no longer work right.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Where does that come from?
In Scripture I find morality starts with our inborn Conscience.
Because of Conscience people of the nations do the things of the law.
So, unless damaged, Conscience can be a guide to do what is right.
Then, depending on training, or ignoring one's Conscience, will show the outcome.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Question:

Is there such thing as a natural law? (as opposed to a divine law or a human-made law)

That exists independently of God?

In the same way as 4 + 4 = 8 exists independently of God?

Biblically, I think there is, look at Romans 2:14

...for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,,,

I call it "human nature" - the capacity to recognise and follow natural laws, concerning the ethical treatment of others

And that it is universal and in all (healthy) peoples' hearts no matter what their faith or non-faith might be, and regardless of culture

I think it is a law of the universe that where sapient civilised beings emerge an intuitive natural law will also emerge, I believe that evolution demands this. I believe that with humans, the in-built ethical imperative to be good comes from nature rather than from God. Much like the evolution of life by natural selection is a natural fact rather than a thing designed by God.

For proof, look at all the ethically aware and fundamentally decent people who are atheists - they abide by natural law whilst ignoring religious teachings and manage to be good, ethical people in a way many religious folk don't. I believe such people are testimony to there being natural laws that concern ethics. Although granted, secular ethical notions are influenced by religious influences.

Those are my thoughts on the matter :)
The Romans 2,14 verse is part of the passage, verses 6-16, and when you read it all, you get the meaning of verse 14 more clearly -- it's talking about law in the true moral sense that is perfect, law that will be used to judge all that are not repentant/forgiven on the Day of Judgement.

for reference, here's the helpful NIV translation --
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” a 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Romans 2 NIV
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
However, we do Not see animals feeling remorse for hurting another animal or stealing from another animal as human morality could feel remorse or regret.
That is incorrect. Observations of chimpanzees show behavior patterns that represent what we call remorse as well as dogs. In survival setting neither humans animals or other animals show remorse it is only in stable social conditions can those behaviors be observed.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
That is incorrect. Observations of chimpanzees show behavior patterns that represent what we call remorse as well as dogs. In survival setting neither humans animals or other animals show remorse it is only in stable social conditions can those behaviors be observed.
In behavior, I have never seen one dog show remorse for stealing another dog's bone, but I do see what you mean.
Consider too, the behavior that some animals eat their young.
A few years back there was a news story about a women who had a chimpanzee for a long time as a pet.
One day the chimp got outside and a known friendly neighbor came by and the chimp's behavior surprisingly severely attacked her.

I've read examples of people in concentration camps ( Not a stable social condition ) that have shown remorse.
Some smaller people sharing their meager amount of food to help a larger person.
People on the ' death march ' (survival setting) that helped others.
So, to me it is the human ' voice of conscience ' calling one to help another even if nothing is received in return.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The Romans 2,14 verse is part of the passage, verses 6-16, and when you read it all, you get the meaning of verse 14 more clearly -- it's talking about law in the true moral sense that is perfect, law that will be used to judge all that are not repentant/forgiven on the Day of Judgement.............................
Law in the true moral sense that is perfect I find is ' the law of Christ ' ( Ephesians 6:2 ) .
The kingly law, or royal law - James 2:8
Jesus' New commandment of John 13:34-35 our conduct should have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
In other words, to now love neighbor MORE than self, more than the Golden Rule.
A coming 'Day of Judgement' is coming upon the living people of Earth at the time coming 'time of separation' as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Jesus' judgement is based on what is recorded about the figurative humble ' sheep' contrasted with the haughty 'goat'-like people.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Is there such thing as a natural law?
Yes.

But first we have to understand what "natural" actually stands for (in the relevant sense). "Nature" of a thing is its essence/form. For example function or final cause (purpose if you want) of eyes is enabling us to see. If they are somehow defect they can't carry out their natural function and our sight is impaired. In this sense defects are unnatural (even if they are genetic). Glasses thus aren't in conflict with eyes' natural function because they help eyes to fulfill it.

So natural law means something is (more) natural if it conforms (more perfectly) to the essence or nature of a thing. To determine what is good or better (for a thing) we take thing's nature/essence/form. For example a form of triangle is to have three perfectly straight sides. According to this we determine how good a particular triangle is (how good it fits triangularity). This example is not about morality but it has the same basis - moral good is a subset of good.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
True, but I would guess that non-believers are more likely to achieve such over many of the religious, especially those of certain religions.

Maybe, but as I see it, it has also to do with intelligence in combination with empty and the ability to doubt truth. More if you want to.
 
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