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Gay Christian

eik

eik

Active Member
Evangelicalhumanist said:
I have not found that religion adds anything to the study of "morality." It is much better to understand why a thing is morally right or wrong, so as to be able to apply it in almost any situation, rather than a long list of commandments an do's and don'ts to be memorized like catechism. The Bible could have stopped with "Do unto others..." or even better, with Hillel's version while standing on one foot: "That which is hateful to yourself, do not do to others. That is the whole of Torah -- now go and study."
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You will never know what is moral or not unless you grasp religion and learn from the revelation of God.

Evangelicalhumanist said:
A liberal education includes the study of philosophical concepts of ethics and morality, without bothering to list which foods to eat, how to touch parts of your own body, or who to have consensual sexual relationships with. Religious morals make no allowance for the differences in actual human beings.
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Modern philosophy is for the most part divorced from religion and even antithetical to it because it is a hindrance to belief. The problem with philosophy is often that it seeks to usurp religion, just like you are arguing for. As it pertains to the principals of government, philosophy may have a place. As it pertains to human salvation and sin, it is of little import.


Evangelicalhumanist said:
What a bigotted thing to say. And how do you know that?
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Because it is widely acknowledged that parts of the Koran are extremely difficult to understand or interpret. This stems also from parts of it being translated from Syriac into Arabic. Thus it is likely that even the Arabic Koran is full of translational errors.

Evangelicalhumanist said:
And just to be clear, thousands of Christian sects read the Bible and come up with widely different understandings of it, so how can you be sure that they (or even you) really understand it?
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I don't pretend to understand it better than all others. I am no one when it comes to biblical languages. Yet the bible comes replete with many warnings against heresies, which can be easily identified in many self-professing Christians. Everyone is or should be on a learning path to spiritial enlightenment. It is inevitable differences will arise,

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Then I think you should also be prepared to admit that other parts are perfectly vile: the wanton slaughter of children at God's command, for example, or the "miraculous" deaths of Ananias and Sapphirah at the hands of the Apostle's for the horrible crime of keeping some of THEIR OWN PROPERTY.
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The Bible extends from a period where people lived a hand to mouth existence. They had no capacity to retain or release prisoners of war. Morality has to take account of that fact. War is not a charitable institution.

As for Ananias and Sapphirah, they lied to God, and God killed them.
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Evangelicalhumanist said:
I have not found that religion adds anything to the study of "morality." It is much better to understand why a thing is morally right or wrong, so as to be able to apply it in almost any situation, rather than a long list of commandments an do's and don'ts to be memorized like catechism. The Bible could have stopped with "Do unto others..." or even better, with Hillel's version while standing on one foot: "That which is hateful to yourself, do not do to others. That is the whole of Torah -- now go and study."

A liberal education includes the study of philosophical concepts of ethics and morality, without bothering to list which foods to eat, how to touch parts of your own body, or who to have consensual sexual relationships with. Religious morals make no allowance for the differences in actual human beings.


What a bigotted thing to say. And how do you know that?

And just to be clear, thousands of Christian sects read the Bible and come up with widely different understandings of it, so how can you be sure that they (or even you) really understand it?

Then I think you should also be prepared to admit that other parts are perfectly vile: the wanton slaughter of children at God's command, for example, or the "miraculous" deaths of Ananias and Sapphirah at the hands of the Apostle's for the horrible crime of keeping some of THEIR OWN PROPERTY.
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When you talk about long lists of religious observances, I presume you are talking about
the Old Testament? Christians don't live under the Old Testament. People can come up
with all sorts of "interpretations" but that doesn't negate Christianity, it negates themselves
if their life is at odds with Christ.
The issue with Ananias as I see it is that you get people who make claims but don't follow
through. They should have just left the church. The story is uncomfortable for anyone to read.
 
Evangelicalhumanist

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
February-Saturday said:
Ah, I see. You think I'm not allowed an opinion because you assume that I'm not or never have been a gay man (or that I'm not even significantly close to gay men affected by the issue, thus becoming embroiled in it); it had nothing to do with me not being Christian. Your attempt at apologetics had me rather confused, especially given that they had nothing to do with what I was saying.

And just for the record, I never called you vain. I said your hostility towards me was vain. Now you've shown that it is indeed a personal grievance you have, and that's the reason for your tangential attempt to shut me down, which I think shows more vanity than I was accusing you of having to begin with.

I did accuse you of being a hypocrite, which I maintain now that you're going off about assumptions despite making piles of your own. This will be my last reply, because you're getting worse with each subsequent post.
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However, in spite of the fact that you have decided not to respond to me, let me return to what really irritated me enough to begin this converstion with you. It was your statement that "it is silly to be gay and a Christian." This is what I took exception to.

It is not our place to decide whether or not somebody's honestly held religious beliefs are right or wrong, good or bad, silly or wise. Nor are we permitted to decide whether a person of faith is able to reconcile some contradiction of their own life within the context of some article of that faith. That is for them to do. It is also not possible to "choose" one's sexual orientation, so in no wise can it be "silly" to be gay. It is simply a fact of that person's life.
 
blü 2

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
PruePhillip said:
What was right in the past was family, country, flag, tradition, culture, your religion, moral behavior etc..
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You know how to sell snake oil, don't you? You stand on your soapbox, and you frighten people, tell them what appaling threats they face, how ghastly everything is and getting worse by the minute and so on. And when you've got your audience picked out, you can move to the BUT FORTUNATELY I HAVE RIGHT HERE ... part. And you sell 'em snake oil, very cheap really when you consider what it does that NOTHING ELSE can do,

I hope you don't belong to a church like that. I hope that's not what's filling you with negativity.
 
Altfish

Altfish

Veteran Member
mikkel_the_dane said:
I am still waiting. You and I are both in practice a part of the same world. So if I make a claim about the world or a part of it, you can ask for evidence. I accept that and you can ask for it and I will do so.

So how come you don't answer? Well, of course, you don't have to and I can't force you. But how do you think, it looks from my point of view. I know, you demand evidence from other people, yet you haven' answered with evidence.
How am I going to understand that?
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To be honest, I can't even remember which despots you mentioned that I said were bad people; Stalin, I think, was one.

But asking for proof of Stalin being a bad person is a bit like if I said, "1+1=2" and you ask me for proof.
Is there any doubt that Stalin was not a good man?
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Altfish said:
To be honest, I can't even remember which despots you mentioned that I said were bad people; Stalin, I think, was one.

But asking for proof of Stalin being a bad person is a bit like if I said, "1+1=2" and you ask me for proof.
Is there any doubt that Stalin was not a good man?
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Yes, there is doubt. "1+1=10" is not the same type of claim as "Stalin was not a good man". You use two different versions of proof and treat them as one. You are in effect doing a fallacy of treat a word with 2 different meanings to mean exactly the same.
The one is rational and the other empirical.
 
Altfish

Altfish

Veteran Member
mikkel_the_dane said:
Yes, there is doubt. "1+1=10" is not the same type of claim as "Stalin was not a good man". You use two different versions of proof and treat them as one. You are in effect doing a fallacy of treat a word with 2 different meanings to mean exactly the same.
The one is rational and the other empirical.
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So, the example you give is in base 2, binary, if you prefer.
But sorry, back to basics with Stalin is a waste of my time, here read about him on Wiki ...
Joseph Stalin - Wikipedia
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
blü 2 said:
You know how to sell snake oil, don't you? You stand on your soapbox, and you frighten people, tell them what appaling threats they face, how ghastly everything is and getting worse by the minute and so on. And when you've got your audience picked out, you can move to the BUT FORTUNATELY I HAVE RIGHT HERE ... part. And you sell 'em snake oil, very cheap really when you consider what it does that NOTHING ELSE can do,

I hope you don't belong to a church like that. I hope that's not what's filling you with negativity.
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When you encounter a Christian church which purports to have the answer
to the world's problems then yes, you could be dealing with snake oil. The
reason is simple - Christianity never claimed it was going to solve the world's
problems, in fact, it felt the problems would get worse with time - as they have.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
PruePhillip said:
When you encounter a Christian church which purports to have the answer
to the world's problems then yes, you could be dealing with snake oil. The
reason is simple - Christianity never claimed it was going to solve the world's
problems, in fact, it felt the problems would get worse with time - as they have.
Click to expand...

Okay, your God is definitely not mine.
 
blü 2

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
PruePhillip said:
When you encounter a Christian church which purports to have the answer
to the world's problems then yes, you could be dealing with snake oil. The reason is simple - Christianity never claimed it was going to solve the world's problems, in fact, it felt the problems would get worse with time - as they have.
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You're saying you're a born pessimist then? Your gloom is a skill native to you, nothing acquired?

Good luck with that.
 
eik

eik

Active Member
Mitty said:
In other words biblical morality, including the ten commandments, is just man-made.
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Only if angels don't exist (law was given through angels).

Mitty said:
Doesn't change the fact that Jesus said nothing about homosexuality and why he loved a particular disciple instead of a wife. Nor does the bible say that Jesus was a heterosexual. Nor does it change the fact that the bible says nothing about female homosexuality either.
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All homosexuality involves demon possession in biblical terms. No reason for it to dwell on such subjects. It is condemned. That is all.

Mitty said:
In other words remarried divorcees are tossed into the lake of fire unless they remain celibate and/or cut off their members and throw them away (Matt 5:27-30 Mark 10:11-12 Luke 16:18) and repent for their adulterous marriages.
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Divorce is a serious issue. Some treat it flippantly. Too bad. But if you weren't at fault in the divorce no harm will come.
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
blü 2 said:
You're saying you're a born pessimist then? Your gloom is a skill native to you, nothing acquired?

Good luck with that.
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No, I call myself a "constitutional optimist" about most things in life.
But that doesn't mean you have to be optimistic about everything.
I see things happening now that I told people would happen one
day - and i was disbelieved - such as persecution of Jews, the crime
rate and the Maoist transformation of campuses.
You wouldn't call George Orwell an pessimist, but in 1949 he wrote
"1984" and got most of it correct - right down to the desecration of
monuments. I think "realist" is the word.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
PruePhillip said:
Obviously. I believe in the Judaean Christian God. And I read
all this in the Book of Revelations.
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That is a subjective choice in you to use the Book of Revelations and not other sources of God outside the Judaean Christian God. In a sense it say itself since you use the Judaean Christian God. That God is not the only God.
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
mikkel_the_dane said:
That is a subjective choice in you to use the Book of Revelations and not other sources of God outside the Judaean Christian God. In a sense it say itself since you use the Judaean Christian God. That God is not the only God.
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Hollywood is pretty much a god these days. So too is money.
What gods do you have in mind? And what do they require of you?
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
PruePhillip said:
Hollywood is pretty much a god these days. So too is money.
What gods do you have in mind? And what do they require of you?
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Your choice of questions is your choice and I do it differently, when I ask fundamental questions.So by asking certain questions you frame how to understand the world. I choose not to accept your frame and use mine.
 
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